don't agree with your characterizations. You have to look at where they were BEFORE him.

The '72 Carolina won 35 games under Tom Meschery. The '73 team won 57 games under Brown. That's "turning it around." The '74 team won 47 under Brown and the '75 team won 32 games under Bob MacKinnon. So he wins 57 and 47 sandwhiched between 35 and 32 win seasons without him.

This is your example of him failing???

So he leaves there and goes to Denver, your next example of failing to turn it around.

The 74 Denver team won 37 games under Alex Hannum. The '75 team won 65 under Brown. Denver has winning seasons all 5 years under Brown and then win 30 games under Donnie Walsh.

This is another example of failure??? This is the BEST you can do in a 30 year career?

With enemies like you, who needs friends?

Justified or not, that's what most consider Dolan to have been doing to brown for the last month.

Like what? Him saying "We don't have heads out there to take pressure off the kids?" That's spitting in Marbury's face? It doesn't mention Marbury or point guard, and it was absolutely true. Our starters were not able to close games and the kids were relied on to bring us back into and/or finish games. In the pressure cooker that is NY, and trying desperately to make the playoffs, that's undue pressure on a guy like Nate Robinson who's not only learning the NBA game but playing out of his natural SG position. Ditto Lee adjusting from PF to SF and Frye adjusting from Center to PF.

That's not at all true. He said that and then went on the offensive himself. He "devalued" the coach. And we were told that he and Brown were both told to stop and neither did until Larry called Steph in for a short meeting where he told Steph to just do what he asks whether he sees the value or not and Steph told us proudly that he didn't tell Larry if he would or wouldn't, but that what Larry said ended it all.

So it was Larry who ended it.

I don't think coming into camp saying he's not going to change his game and rolling his eyes from the first day of training camp is respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think dragging his feet in resistance and dogging a game to make a point is respectful of his coach, GM, or owner. I don't think telling Wilkens to stuff his coaching was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be told to play defense by his GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be spoken to about his piss-poor body language by both his coach and GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think polarizing a locker-room to the extent that none of his teammates like him was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think engaging his coach in a media brawl against his owner's wishes was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. Etc. etc...

Look, we're never gonna agree on this. You're a fan of guys like Francis, Walker and Marbury and I'm not.

Look, we're never gonna agree on this. You're a fan of guys like Francis, Walker and Marbury and I'm not.

You probably also prefer a different kind of coach than me too. I wanted a hardazz for this squad. I wanted a no nonsense, buttoned down guy with more "juice" than Marbury. Guys like Brown, Riley, Sloan, Popovich, Skiles, Van Gundy, Fratello, Carlisle, etc. I consider all of them good coaches in spite of their sometimes abrasive demeanor, and many of them go through periods of "losing their players." But it's worth it, they teach structure and fundamentals - things these guys lack.

I don't know who you'd like but I'd imagine they'd be of the Flip, Bickerstaff, Doc Rivers, Eddie Jordan variety. Which is fine.

The point is when you put the kind of coach I like in charge of these guys who I don't like I expect a clash of egos and some struggle. But the picture you guys try to paint of Brown seems to be as a guy who's so vile he's incapable of motivating players or winning, but his history suggests that is anything but true.

And as much as much as you or I might try to make this about Brown and Marbury, you make the point we can't forget Dolan's role in this. The same guy who fired Marv Albert for speaking with integrity instead of like a goober homer. But I guess you'd tell me the firing was justified because Marv was "spitting in Dolan's face."

Marv was good enough for the franchise for ~40 years, but not good enough for Dolan the Emperor.

Dolan is the Emperor in his new clothes and he fires anyone who doesn't tell him they look splendid.

June 18, 2006

In Coney Island, Marbury Has Message but No News
By HOWARD BECK

At the opening of his annual basketball tournament in Coney Island, Knicks point guard Stephon Marbury pledged yesterday to build "a new movement" to help children move out of poverty — and out of Coney Island.

Marbury, surrounded by a couple of dozen children, spoke of self-reliance and job creation and invoked the names of Oprah Winfrey, Jay-Z and Sean Combs.

Marbury grew up in the neighborhood's Surfside Gardens projects. His tournament, now in its 11th year, is held in honor of Jason Sowell, a high school teammate known as Juice who was shot and killed nearby in 1995.

"My message to the kids of Coney Island is: 'Don't want to live here. Don't want to be in Coney Island all your life,' " Marbury said. "And if somebody tells you different, don't deal with them people, because they want you to stay here. So what I'm doing is trying to give kids hope, and allow them to understand that with hard work and dedication, preparation, all of those different things, they'll be able to succeed."

Marbury spoke of creating jobs and other avenues out of poverty. He said he would pay barbers in his former neighborhood to give residents free haircuts.

He also said he would sponsor a line of low-cost sports apparel, to be marketed and sold by the Steve and Barry's chain, which has a location in Manhattan.

"The sneaker's going to be $14.98, the same exact shoe that you can go and spend $220 for," Marbury said. "What we're trying to do is allow kids to understand that we can still have the fly stuff, and we don't got to pay a whole bunch of money. The way how this world is right now, we need more people like me."

Marbury declined to talk about the Knicks — he chastised a reporter who asked about the team — but did mention Coach Larry Brown, who is expected to be fired soon. Brown and Marbury openly clashed throughout the season.

Marbury called the past year "the best year of my life," explaining that "my mind was trapped, and now my mind is free." When asked what opened him up, Marbury said, "Larry Brown."

"I love Larry Brown, period," he said. "I was tested. But that's all it was, was a test. I passed the test. I'm moving on to the next phase."

Marbury told reporters he would answer questions about the Knicks during a conference call today. A team spokesman later said that no call was planned.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

"The way how this world is right now, we need more people like me."

it's great how Marbury has summed up his best & worst flaws all in that single sentence... as a person, he's very charitable, he cares about the community, & he takes time out of his schedule to help those in need... those things are never in question, & he's alot better person than i am for doing that much (even w/all the money he makes)... but it takes 1 helluva arrogant SOB to say something like that about themselves... true nobleness is found in those who don't seek praise for the good deeds they do... learn some humility, Marbs, for real... maybe then u'll gain the respect & admiration of those you're always trying to impress.

as for the stuff about him "loving LB", that's just his own personal damage control so he won't be seen as the guy who ran LB outta town... sorry Steph, it's way too little & way too late to say things like that... better to just not say anything at all.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-19-2006 11:13 AM]

Posted by Pharzeone:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by NYKniCksFan87:

"The way how this world is right now, we need more people like me."

it's great how Marbury has summed up his best & worst flaws all in that single sentence... as a person, he's very charitable, he cares about the community, & he takes time out of his schedule to help those in need... those things are never in question, & he's alot better person than i am for doing that much (even w/all the money he makes)... but it takes 1 helluva arrogant SOB to say something like that about themselves... true nobleness is found in those who don't seek praise for the good deeds they do... learn some humility, Marbs, for real... maybe then u'll gain the respect & admiration of those you're always trying to impress.

as for the stuff about him "loving LB", that's just his own personal damage control so he won't be seen as the guy who ran LB outta town... sorry Steph, it's way too little & way too late to say things like that... better to just not say anything at all.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-19-2006 11:13 AM]

I think he was referring to those in his position. He said the same thing last year during the Katarina event. He challenged his peers to open their pocketbook. That is fund raising 101, if you don't know, it has nothing to do with or not being humble. The NFL was humilated by the Yankees in the amount of money being donated to the huricanne victims. George called out the NFL saying how Yankees themselves are able to contribute more than an entire league. The NFL ante up and went a step further.

Posted by Allanfan20:

Stephon IS arrogant and like I mentioned, he's definitely not the sharpest knife in the draw. But I think b/c he's NOT the best speaker, he didn't mean to come off as arrogant as sounded, in that quote. Honestly speaking, in terms of charity and being a good person, he is right. People DO need to be like that and people do need his heart.

He really does need to think before he speaks though. I know his intentions are good, but everytime he speaks, more and more controversy seems to come out.

Posted by oohah:

don't agree with your characterizations. You have to look at where they were BEFORE him.

The '72 Carolina won 35 games under Tom Meschery. The '73 team won 57 games under Brown. That's "turning it around." The '74 team won 47 under Brown and the '75 team won 32 games under Bob MacKinnon. So he wins 57 and 47 sandwhiched between 35 and 32 win seasons without him.

This is your example of him failing???

So he leaves there and goes to Denver, your next example of failing to turn it around.

The 74 Denver team won 37 games under Alex Hannum. The '75 team won 65 under Brown. Denver has winning seasons all 5 years under Brown and then win 30 games under Donnie Walsh.

This is another example of failure??? This is the BEST you can do in a 30 year career?

With enemies like you, who needs friends?

You're missing my point. Brown has a history of losing teams with time. They reach a certain point and he loses them.

But your assessment of Brown as the reason they turned it around is flawed as well. Carolina added Billy Cunningham and Mack Calvin, Denver did as well, Mack Calvin and Bobby Jones.

This is not to discount LB's large role. But there is no such thing as a franchise coach.

By the way, LB's last year with Denver, he cut out leaving them high and dry. He wasn't doing so well so he left while the getting is good. That's LB. They went the rest of the way 19-10 under Donnie Walsh.

Justified or not, that's what most consider Dolan to have been doing to brown for the last month.

The owner usually gets to spit last. LB brought that on himself when he started the spit-war.

Like what? Him saying "We don't have heads out there to take pressure off the kids?" That's spitting in Marbury's face? It doesn't mention Marbury or point guard, and it was absolutely true. Our starters were not able to close games and the kids were relied on to bring us back into and/or finish games. In the pressure cooker that is NY, and trying desperately to make the playoffs, that's undue pressure on a guy like Nate Robinson who's not only learning the NBA game but playing out of his natural SG position. Ditto Lee adjusting from PF to SF and Frye adjusting from Center to PF.

There were a few other comments, I can't go find them right now, but is it really in dispute that LB took many shots at Marbury before Marbury shot back? Was LB really trying to protect NR? He had him starting by December if not earlier. There was no rhyme or reason to his maneuvers.

That's not at all true. He said that and then went on the offensive himself. He "devalued" the coach. And we were told that he and Brown were both told to stop and neither did until Larry called Steph in for a short meeting where he told Steph to just do what he asks whether he sees the value or not and Steph told us proudly that he didn't tell Larry if he would or wouldn't, but that what Larry said ended it all.

So it was Larry who ended it.

That's quite an interpretation. I don't agree with it. But LB should end what he starts.

I don't think coming into camp saying he's not going to change his game and rolling his eyes from the first day of training camp is respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think dragging his feet in resistance and dogging a game to make a point is respectful of his coach, GM, or owner. I don't think telling Wilkens to stuff his coaching was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be told to play defense by his GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think having to be spoken to about his piss-poor body language by both his coach and GM was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think polarizing a locker-room to the extent that none of his teammates like him was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. I don't think engaging his coach in a media brawl against his owner's wishes was respectful of his coach, GM or owner. Etc. etc...

How do you jump all over Marbury for Body Language or eye rolling, or even openly disrespecting his coach (A rumor in my opinion), but excuse LB for opening his mouth? Isn't that a double standard?

Look, we're never gonna agree on this. You're a fan of guys like Francis, Walker and Marbury and I'm not.

Really, I am? Strange that you would say that when I don't care for them either way. I think the difference is that even if I don't like a player/person I don't try to pin every possible thing on them.

And how does a "winning player" like Walker get lumped in with Marbury in Francis? Is he a malcontent? Haven't you seen him sacrifice to win? I still wonder what it is he has done to get such a bad rep.

Look, we're never gonna agree on this. You're a fan of guys like Francis, Walker and Marbury and I'm not.

You probably also prefer a different kind of coach than me too. I wanted a hardazz for this squad. I wanted a no nonsense, buttoned down guy with more "juice" than Marbury. Guys like Brown, Riley, Sloan, Popovich, Skiles, Van Gundy, Fratello, Carlisle, etc. I consider all of them good coaches in spite of their sometimes abrasive demeanor, and many of them go through periods of "losing their players." But it's worth it, they teach structure and fundamentals - things these guys lack.

I don't know who you'd like but I'd imagine they'd be of the Flip, Bickerstaff, Doc Rivers, Eddie Jordan variety. Which is fine.

I notice how you picked mostly Hall of Famers and Stuck me with Novice coaches. I would want Nelson, Wilkens, or perhaps an Avery Johnson type. I am actually not looking for a paradigm. I am looking for the right coach for the players that we have.

By the way, some of the coaches you picked are very different from each other. JVG is loyal to a fault unlike LB or Skiles. Sloan is one of the best coaches at utilizing his players abilities and hiding their weaknesses. They are all different.

The point is when you put the kind of coach I like in charge of these guys who I don't like I expect a clash of egos and some struggle. But the picture you guys try to paint of Brown seems to be as a guy who's so vile he's incapable of motivating players or winning, but his history suggests that is anything but true.

You're exaggerating my stance. I would not even intimate those suggestions because I know they are not true. I say LB is an ass-hole who screwed up royally this year. It wasn't just a normal clash. He also has an unquestionable history of losing his teams. This team he lost in record time. Since I have no emotional investment in LB, or for that matter these players (I'm a knick Fan) I feel that I can make an equitable look at what happened this past season. My opinion is that LB was the biggest stinker out of a group of stinkers this past year.

And as much as much as you or I might try to make this about Brown and Marbury, you make the point we can't forget Dolan's role in this. The same guy who fired Marv Albert for speaking with integrity instead of like a goober homer. But I guess you'd tell me the firing was justified because Marv was "spitting in Dolan's face."

Actually I think Marbury has very little to do with it, that's more your thing. And I wrote to you about this before. Marv predates Dolan, he came with the franchise. I don't agree with Marv's firing, but it certainly

Posted by oohah:
You can reply to as much or as little as you please, I have no problem with that. I disagree with your suggestion that there is a loss of relevance or context, just the opposite in fact. You always know what I am responding to, this enforces context.

It is simply a matter of style, and by the way, I have noticed you are doinga lot more quote responding these days.

You have not seen me write that I like Walker. I just don't think he is this terrible player that he is made out to be. He is actually quite good, and he is a proven winner. Also you did not see a thread where I suggest we acquire Francis, but one where I PREDICTED that we do. And we did. Just call me Karnak!