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McK1
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4/16/2006  10:44 AM
going to win:

Steph gets hurt and we find out this team really isn't that deep at the most key of positions - lead guard - also Isiah's fault for not having a lead guard besides Steph on the roster. I understand killa and pharzeone's frustration with the Crawford love as of late b/c when the season was still salvageable we saw the utter Crawfulness of Jamal. Guy couldn't lead a drunk to an open bar.

[Edited by - McK1 on 04-16-2006 10:45 AM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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BlueSeats
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4/16/2006  11:19 AM
Here's what jerry Sloan said regarding why he didn't "adapt to his players":

Asked how hard it is to coach without the certainty of seeing the precise execution that became synonymous with the Jazz in the John Stockton-to-Karl Malone years, Sloan told me recently: "That's not anything I didn't expect. If I didn't think that would happen, I'd have tried to get out and go somewhere else. That's just part of coaching. I knew it was going to be a hard-fought thing to try to teach [young] guys. I'm sure we could probably open things up a little bit and play a different way sometimes. But I'm not sure it's a good teacher for playoff basketball."

I personally feel that the one area Brown failed the most was in not selling his program to the players. He came in with his rings and credentials and assumed we had guys who were hungry and they'd follow along, as every club had before, but they didn't. Remember when Hubie took over Memphis how much praise he got for getting his guys to "buy into" shared minutes and a deep rotation.

I do blame our players for not finding the cause to buy in within themselves, but I do have to acknowledge brown also did not do a proper sell job. Neither did Isiah intervene and help. As much as people want to blame Brown for taking it to the press, so too did Isiah when stating on the radio that it's the players job to "buy in" or get traded.

As much as people bash Brown for bashing the players in the press I still believe the greatest offense came from Isiah himself, against none other than Steph. I dare anyone to find anything out of brown, against any player, that compares with Isiah leaving Marbury out of the Curry-Frye-Brown core, and in the saying interview saying "in 5 years I don't know where Marbury will be... I hope he'll still be playing basketball..." And lets not forget the comments to "act like a man, you're family is watching".

So yeah, some hardline tactics were used this year, and not by Brown alone. Lets not forget isiah is from the Bobby Knight school of basketball, as well as a reputed backstabber. WHo was harder on his players, Brown calling Ariza delusional, or isiah shutting down Shandon's iron-man streak in his hometown after buying 50 tickets for friends and family?

Anyway, while I agree some of browns methods were unconventional this year he's not the only guy having to deal with unmotivated guys. Nate McMillian, everybody's darling coach last year, is in the very same boat now. We have mentally tough players who don't shrivel in the face of adversity then we'll have a team who can exell under brown, as all his prior ones have.
holfresh
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4/16/2006  12:04 PM


I have never read more crap in my entire life...The extremes that some people would go through to defend Larry Brown...I'm hearing that this is Isiah's master plan to wrestle team control away from Steph...Hire Brown , pay him 50 mil and tank the season to some how gain control from Steph...And Larry is in on this master plan and is willing to put his HOF career on the line to see this plan through...So now Isiah has Steph exactly where he wants him? Amazing...

Now Isiah is really the main guy bashing players in the press...Isiah is some how the reason this team is lost due to his comments in the press...


Isiah is not the guy tht implement 45 different lineups...Isiah was not the guy starting players in their home towns...Isiah was not the guy playing vets long stretches at a time while our rooks sat and watch when they could have gained valuable learning experience this season....Isiah was not the guy switching everyone from their normal positions in hopes to find something that was never there...One of the most damning comments came from Malik Rose midway through the season that defined this entire year under Brown...

Players have sometimes shown up at the arena unaware if they would start or be on the inactive list, play heavy minutes or none. It has led to frustration, bewilderment and dissension. "It's real confusing," Knicks forward Malik Rose said. "When I was in San Antonio, I knew when I was going in. I knew how long I was going to play. I knew what my job was, where I was going to be successful in the offense. It's a little different here."
BlueSeats
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4/16/2006  12:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Now Isiah is really the main guy bashing players in the press...Isiah is some how the reason this team is lost due to his comments in the press...

That's not what I said, now you're the one spinning out of control.


Players have sometimes shown up at the arena unaware if they would start or be on the inactive list, play heavy minutes or none. It has led to frustration, bewilderment and dissension. "It's real confusing," Knicks forward Malik Rose said. "When I was in San Antonio, I knew when I was going in. I knew how long I was going to play. I knew what my job was, where I was going to be successful in the offense. It's a little different here."

yes, it's a little different, tough cookies. Malik is actually one of the guys able to keep it together. He's also a guy known to have been in Pops doghouse a lot bordering on being a malcontent over minutes.
rvhoss
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4/16/2006  2:37 PM
so, now you are turning on Malik Rose, the only knick with a ring?

So basically, everyone else is to blame...but brown gets no blame.
all kool aid all the time.
McK1
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4/16/2006  3:24 PM
Posted by holfresh:



I have never read more crap in my entire life...The extremes that some people would go through to defend Larry Brown...I'm hearing that this is Isiah's master plan to wrestle team control away from Steph...Hire Brown , pay him 50 mil and tank the season to some how gain control from Steph...And Larry is in on this master plan and is willing to put his HOF career on the line to see this plan through...So now Isiah has Steph exactly where he wants him? Amazing...


the colossal losing wasn't apart of it. the colossal losing is a result of Curry not being able to carry a franchise either. Despite the changing line-ups, Eddy Duddy remained a constant and he could not lead a group either.

What a mess
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Nalod
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4/16/2006  8:53 PM
Master plan?

Too much Comic book drama. Super villins and super hero stuff.

Too funny.
McK1
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4/16/2006  8:59 PM
trying to find an explanation for what has went on brings out the Fox Mulder
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
crzymdups
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4/16/2006  9:11 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by holfresh:



I have never read more crap in my entire life...The extremes that some people would go through to defend Larry Brown...I'm hearing that this is Isiah's master plan to wrestle team control away from Steph...Hire Brown , pay him 50 mil and tank the season to some how gain control from Steph...And Larry is in on this master plan and is willing to put his HOF career on the line to see this plan through...So now Isiah has Steph exactly where he wants him? Amazing...


the colossal losing wasn't apart of it. the colossal losing is a result of Curry not being able to carry a franchise either. Despite the changing line-ups, Eddy Duddy remained a constant and he could not lead a group either.

What a mess

I wouldn't blame Eddy. He hadn't played since March 30th 2005 when the season started, he had to rest all summer, was injured for most of training camp, missed like 11 of the first 25 games with nagging leg injuries. The colossal mistake was Isiah mortgaging our future on a guy, who even if the heart thing isn't an issue needed a while to get up and running AND even when he is up and running isn't much more than a half a game offensive player. I don't blame Curry for being what he is, he's a useful player. I blame Isiah for calling him a once every 20 yrs type franchise savior and paying the Bulls accordingly. That was the disaster.

The on the court disaster was all Marbury vs. Brown, plus Brown breaking and building Craw, three of our best players being rookies, no real PF or SF, QRich being injured all season.
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crzymdups
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4/16/2006  9:16 PM
also, as for on the court reasons why the season stank, look at this:

we started 14 different guys ten games or more this season, and Jerome James would make 15 if he starts one more - he's got nine starts.

that's effectively the entire team starting for 10 games. no consistency, no rotation, nobody knowing when they would play even if Brown was telling them the right things. 45 or is it 46 different starting lineups - an NBA record. with Brown and Marbury power struggling, the lack of consistency sealed the deal.
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BlueSeats
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4/16/2006  10:56 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

so, now you are turning on Malik Rose, the only knick with a ring?

So basically, everyone else is to blame...but brown gets no blame.

This is so far detached from where I was coming from there's no sensible way to respond to it. Rational dialog seems to have passed us by.
Bippity10
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4/17/2006  10:50 AM
Blueseats: I thought you spread the blame around, targeting pretty much everyone and I agree with most of what you wrote. Unfortunately unless you come on here and call Brown a loser and blame him for everything you are going to be targeted. That's just the way some role.

I think this team is in the midst of a power play, which is exactly what this franchise needed. I think people are so focused on the on court issues that they don't realize that the Knicks problem is more of an off court issue than an on court thing. It's been 7 years and nothing has changed besides the names. That has told me that it is definitely more off court than on court. We need to get the team out of Marb's hands and everyone else and back into the hands of the coach like we had it when we used to win. It's imperative for this organization to get behind the coach(whether it is LB, Herb Williams etc does not matter). No more coach firings for not adapting to career losers. Let's get some career winners in here for the first time in years. For 15 years we won with 1 star and 11 role players with the only concern being winning. As soon as we went away from that model and made everyone a superstar and let the players run the place it became a disaster. Every coaching decision, every GM move has been based on this and it's killing us. It has to stop.

Again, I don't give a flying fahoot who is the coach. If LB retires tomorrow I will not shed a tear. If he stays I will not celebrate. All I want is for us to hire a coach with a vision(regardless of teh vision) and get that coach players that fulfill that vision. Why are we complaining about this logic. Who cares what type of players LB wants. If he is our coach let's get him who he wants so we can start f'in winni.
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BlueSeats
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4/17/2006  11:51 AM
Thanks bip, and I agree 100%.

Larry doesn't get off scott's free for our record, I just maintain confidence there is a silver lining behind it. One step back for two steps forward. We tried the other way with lenny, trying to stroke these guys to fluff up our record and the bottom still fell out with a 2-15 january 2005, which was the worst month in franchise history. The net result was nothing gained for our 16-13 efforts. THAT approach gave us one step forward for two steps back.

I've been brutally critical of Isiah and I don't like his work so far but at the same time I think he "gets it" now and knows what needs to be done. I recommend everyone re-listen to his Dec 16 2005 interview on WFAN. He said all the right things, and I don't mean in a slick reassuring way, I mean in a right priorities way.

http://wfan.com/homepage/local_audioclip_350174548.html

Some people are so afraid of Larry's input and influence but it's exactly what we need right now. It's true we don't know how long he'll stick around but he's an excellent guy to lay the groundwork for others to build upon.
Bippity10
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4/17/2006  12:05 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Thanks bip, and I agree 100%.

Larry doesn't get off scott's free for our record, I just maintain confidence there is a silver lining behind it. One step back for two steps forward. We tried the other way with lenny, trying to stroke these guys to fluff up our record and the bottom still fell out with a 2-15 january 2005, which was the worst month in franchise history. The net result was nothing gained for our 16-13 efforts. THAT approach gave us one step forward for two steps back.

I've been brutally critical of Isiah and I don't like his work so far but at the same time I think he "gets it" now and knows what needs to be done. I recommend everyone re-listen to his Dec 16 2005 interview on WFAN. He said all the right things, and I don't mean in a slick reassuring way, I mean in a right priorities way.

http://wfan.com/homepage/local_audioclip_350174548.html

Some people are so afraid of Larry's input and influence but it's exactly what we need right now. It's true we don't know how long he'll stick around but he's an excellent guy to lay the groundwork for others to build upon.

I think that even if LB fails miserably at least he is doing the one thing we have not done since Patrick left and that is try to change the direction instead of doing the same thing over and over again. Anything is better than what we've been doing. I'm with you, he gets blame for this season. Just like all the players and the GM he did an awful job this season, but it's not about this season. At least the guy want's to make changes.
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holfresh
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4/17/2006  12:40 PM
Bip with all due respect, I think you are totally off base...Brown has our total support in getting this group of misfits together...While we crushed Brown for his inept coaching this season, I did not exempt Isiah or the players role for their part in this mess....You guys seems to think that Brown excentric ways of coaching is not the reason these Knicks' horrible season and I totally disagree....We who feel that Brown is the main culprit in this, do not think the players should run the team, We never said that, we don't want it, we were never advocates for this as you have suggested....Our suggestion to playing to the players strenght in what ways means we want total kaos?...How do you manage time and time again to come up with this formular...You keep bringing up seven years when players spoke out against the coaches and you must be refering when Camby and Sprewell wanted more playing time...Which they later proved that they were right and it was not the revolt that you keep suggesting...JVG was wrong in not playing those guys in his battle with Grunfeld....Those two players were key in making a run to the finals if you remember..

Bip I will gave Larry Brwon my support but he loses me when he trashes players in the press...When he plays people because of their hometowns, When he plays certain vets for unexplicable long periods of time...and most of all whne the Knicks is 22-57...

You guys are trying to look for excuses not to blame Brwon...Last guy came up with this was Isiah's master plan....Brown is the reason that Jalen Rose and Steve Francis is here but most here ignores it when Brown takes credit for it and blames Isiah....If Brown says these players were on his list of players he wanted, then they are his players and it's more reason why I don't trust Brown making personel decisions...You guys seem to think we have taken one step backwards...It's more like 7 steps backwards because we have to revamp the entire roster, to please Brown of course....

So, when you see us disagree with Brown's methods, it's not because we want the players to run the show, thats Brown's job, even though he was as bad at it this season as any coach has ever been....Keep blaming eveyone other than the guy who has the most direct impact on the outcome of the season...He still owns one of the worst seasons in franchise history...





[Edited by - holfresh on 04-17-2006 12:41 PM]

[Edited by - holfresh on 04-17-2006 12:44 PM]
fishmike
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4/17/2006  12:41 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
I've been brutally critical of Isiah and I don't like his work so far but at the same time I think he "gets it" now and knows what needs to be done. I recommend everyone re-listen to his Dec 16 2005 interview on WFAN. He said all the right things, and I don't mean in a slick reassuring way, I mean in a right priorities way.
was that trade before or after he traded for Steve Francis? I mean, if this was a new GM you could certainly see this as a preemptive move to major changes in the backcourt starting with Marbury. However it just looks like more of the same w/ Isiah. Just upgrade talent regardless of roster need or salary structure. Not to mention this is a guy that quit in Houston and pouted, then quit in Orl and pouted. Will anyone be surprised when things dont go his way here he's going to quit and pout?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
holfresh
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4/17/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by BlueSeats:
I've been brutally critical of Isiah and I don't like his work so far but at the same time I think he "gets it" now and knows what needs to be done. I recommend everyone re-listen to his Dec 16 2005 interview on WFAN. He said all the right things, and I don't mean in a slick reassuring way, I mean in a right priorities way.
was that trade before or after he traded for Steve Francis? I mean, if this was a new GM you could certainly see this as a preemptive move to major changes in the backcourt starting with Marbury. However it just looks like more of the same w/ Isiah. Just upgrade talent regardless of roster need or salary structure. Not to mention this is a guy that quit in Houston and pouted, then quit in Orl and pouted. Will anyone be surprised when things dont go his way here he's going to quit and pout?



How is Jalen Rose get credited to isiah Thomas????...If you remember, Isiah desperately wanted Vince Carter from the Rapters...He declined the trade when Jalen was included...So a year later you are telling me he wanted Rose straight up...Does it matter that Larry said it was one of the player on his list along with Francis....Does that matter???
Bippity10
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4/17/2006  12:58 PM
Holfresh and oohahh always seem to think I am talking to them. Never seen people more arrogant than me. Get over yourselves already, I was making a general point. And it's funny how in my last post I specifically mentioned LB and said he did an awful job this season, yet you still think I am making excuses not to blame him? Honestly, what the he-ll is wrong with you guys. This has happened 15 to 20 times in the past week. It can only be one of three things: You don't read, you can't read, or you are messing with me. If you're messing with me I have to say it is very funny.

It's not that hard to understand. The only thing I give LB credit for is trying to change the way we do things. Noone has said he has succeeded or that it will make us better, but it is something that needed to be done. For that I applaud him. I give noone credit for what they've done during a 22-58 record. So once again, here we are talking about the same nonsense. And once again I will say LB has done an awful job this year. And once again you will say that I'm an LB lover. And once again we will have the same conversation again. REpeating this same silly conversation. Hey guess what? We are the Knicks.

Just because I don't spout and spew and viciously attack LB does not mean I think he is God and worship what he has done this year. We are 22-58 noone gets credit for anything. The only people that give me any sign of hope are those that are trying to turn things in a different direction. Right now, that's all I care about!!!!! I don't like anyone associated with this team, so get over your inane mission to get everyone here to attack LB and move on. The moment LB gives in and lets the players run the show is the day you will hear venom from me. Until then I am happy someone is at least trying to change this trend that so few seem to be aware exists.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 04-17-2006 1:00 PM]
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holfresh
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4/17/2006  1:09 PM


Honestly I started my post before you last post hit the board, I ran off the answer a call then sent my post...that being said, you keep bringing the Knicks desension which only occured this year with Marbs and Larry..you are also acting like it something unique to this organization...not true...Most NBA teams have issues internally between coaches and players...between players themsleves...Stop trying to paint the Knicks as an organization that has not been able to control it's players until Larry got here....
BlueSeats
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4/17/2006  1:09 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by BlueSeats:
I've been brutally critical of Isiah and I don't like his work so far but at the same time I think he "gets it" now and knows what needs to be done. I recommend everyone re-listen to his Dec 16 2005 interview on WFAN. He said all the right things, and I don't mean in a slick reassuring way, I mean in a right priorities way.
was that trade before or after he traded for Steve Francis? I mean, if this was a new GM you could certainly see this as a preemptive move to major changes in the backcourt starting with Marbury. However it just looks like more of the same w/ Isiah. Just upgrade talent regardless of roster need or salary structure. Not to mention this is a guy that quit in Houston and pouted, then quit in Orl and pouted. Will anyone be surprised when things dont go his way here he's going to quit and pout?

Fish, you're right, I have no idea what to make of it. I was against the trade in the first place. I can't explain it or defend it. It doesn't give me confidence. Maybe he's a replacement for Steph, maybe he's bait for Jermaine, maybe he's just another unmovable guys we'll be stuck with.

All I can say is, as a guy who's been very critical of Isiah, he's not someone I trust, but i expect him to get another year from dolan and this is his critical off-season. With Marbury and curry he's made franchise defining moves that i don't believe in - but he says he has assets and that's what it's been about, so this is his opportunity to make a positive stand for himself. So far i think he's been busy but ineffective. I'm taking him at his word one last time that he knows what he's doing.
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