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Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..
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holfresh
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4/1/2006  10:25 PM

The difference is that in Philly he had one of the best offensive players and defensive players in the league...Don't act like Larry was doing this with mirrors.....The east was weak as well...The lakers crushed them in the Championship...The series wasn't even close...
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nixluva
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4/2/2006  3:18 AM
Holfresh, you have to understand that LB has totally brainwashed the NY fans. So many of them have been so preoccupied with the LB and Steph war, that they haven't noticed how HORRIBLE the rest of the team has been. LB didn't give this team a CHANCE to succeed. He NEVER settled on a lineup and let it gel, so that a defensive chemistry could develop. The one time he let the team play to their strengths was during the 6 game win streak. Then he went back to his old ways, cuz he didn't like the fact that the team was doing well NOT doing what he said.

He's a good coach, but he's a petty man and lets not forget that if he was such a good coach in every way, then we wouldn't have him right now. Detroit didn't let him go without good reason. He messed up the olympic team which even as poorly constructed as it was, should have won the whole thing, but then we'd probably like to blame that on Steph too. As if he had anything to do with not playing LeBron or Melo. Heck even Duncan had problems with LB, but they don't talk about that.

You know, I don't remember how many Coaches Steph has had, but I can guarantee you that NASH, KIDD or any other PG out there hasn't had as many. SO who knows how many different systems and styles he's played under and Basically that can't be good for any player.

I still think that Steph can be a very productive player on a good team, but i've yet to see him on a GOOD team ie a team with a shot to make the Conf. Finals. I just love reading how teams got better when he left without mentioning, that he was replaced in each stop by another ALL STAR PG. We're not even talking about just a decent PG, but one of the top 5 in the league. Then add in the other additions each of his last two teams where able to make with the money they saved and the draft picks and its really not fair to make that statement. I just want to see Steph stay and get a chance to enjoy the good times when this team is finally built like a good team should be.

I think some of this years negative Steph press has been LB propoganda. He's been the one leaking all this nasty stuff to the media and its not right. You'd think that Steph was dogging it all year. Never mind that he was busting his hump on D much more than he ever has and defending SF's and SG's without complaining. He actually got injured hustling on D. WTF do you people freakin want? It just makes me sick how people only want to see the bad when it comes to STeph. He's got issues, but he's far from the bad player that LB tries to make him out to be. This team will need far more than just removing STeph for it to be a real contender.
joec32033
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4/2/2006  5:41 AM
Nash played for Cotton Fitzsimmons and Danny Ainge, D Antoni in PHX(http://www.nba.com/suns/history/coach_records.html), for Jim Clements, Don Nelson in Dallas(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/coaches.html)

Kidd played for Quinn Buckner, Dick Motta in Dallas(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/coaches.html), Cotton Fitzsimmons, Danny Ainge, Scott Skiles in PHX, Byron Scott and Lawrence Frank in Jersey.

Steph by comparison, had Flip in Minny(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/coaches.html), Calipari and Dwayne Casey in NJ(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/coaches.html), Skiles and Frank Johnson in PHX(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/coaches.html), and in the NY mess he had Chaney, Herb, Lenny, and Larry(http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=15380&page=3)--and Chaney and Herb were only for a combined half a year in his first season so do they really even count?

So that means,

Nash-5 coaches
Kidd-7 coaches
Steph-7 coaches (9 if you count Chaney who coached Steph for only a few games, and Herb who coached Steph for less than half a season)...Not that big of a gap between the 3 if you ask me.


BTW, I nominate nixluva's post for Steph post of the decade.



[Edited by - joec32033 on 04-02-2006 05:42 AM]
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rvhoss
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4/2/2006  7:04 AM
yeah nixluva...way to keep it real.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 04-02-2006 07:14 AM]
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TheSage
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4/2/2006  9:13 AM
Enough of this BS.

Hall of Fame Coach one year away from Finals, two from championship. Winner at every level. Created solid foundation at every stop along the way.

Self proclaimed best PG in league, wants to be SG, 1 playoff in 10 years.

Larry spent the the transition finding who can do what and with who. Strengths and weaknesses, abilities and deficiencies. Sacrificed some wins-yes. Maybe found out enough to determine the necessary changes.
Bobby
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4/2/2006  10:50 AM
Hall of Fame Coach one year away from Finals, two from championship. Winner at every level. Created solid foundation at every stop along the way.

not to single you out, because all the other larry brown pundits state similar views. yet i have not seen any views on what level of winning larry should have this team performing at in the next 4 years: winning record only, winning record + playoffs, championship ring, etc.

because of larry brown's resume my expectation is 1 championship minimum. any other expectations?

btw.........star has given larry brown the benefit of the dollar and said next year will be different [if zeke don't trade him this summer]
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fishmike
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4/2/2006  1:37 PM
Posted by holfresh:
It's the coach's job to put the players in the best position to win..
thats all I needed to hear. That means every coach has failed Marbury, Mo T, Francis, JJ, Jalen Rose, etc etc because THEY NEVER WIN.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
eymyel827
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4/2/2006  1:57 PM
to all LB haters esp holfresh, you make it seem like ur rational about what you say, but are you there during practice? do u know what goes on behind closed door? the coach knows what hes doing. if marbury plays his best and plays D, brown would have no reason to talk **** about him in the media. if u pay attention to games, you'll see his reaction and demeanor. you guys talk about only 1 championship?? do u know how hard it is to win one? lets not talkk about championships but its a fact that larry brown makes his team better unlike your boy marbury.

give the coach what he wants and we will start winning. i cant wait to be telling u LB haters ....i TOLD U SO around this time next year. peace out. GO KNICKS GO!!
holfresh
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4/2/2006  2:15 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Holfresh, you have to understand that LB has totally brainwashed the NY fans. So many of them have been so preoccupied with the LB and Steph war, that they haven't noticed how HORRIBLE the rest of the team has been. LB didn't give this team a CHANCE to succeed. He NEVER settled on a lineup and let it gel, so that a defensive chemistry could develop. The one time he let the team play to their strengths was during the 6 game win streak. Then he went back to his old ways, cuz he didn't like the fact that the team was doing well NOT doing what he said.

He's a good coach, but he's a petty man and lets not forget that if he was such a good coach in every way, then we wouldn't have him right now. Detroit didn't let him go without good reason. He messed up the olympic team which even as poorly constructed as it was, should have won the whole thing, but then we'd probably like to blame that on Steph too. As if he had anything to do with not playing LeBron or Melo. Heck even Duncan had problems with LB, but they don't talk about that.

You know, I don't remember how many Coaches Steph has had, but I can guarantee you that NASH, KIDD or any other PG out there hasn't had as many. SO who knows how many different systems and styles he's played under and Basically that can't be good for any player.

I still think that Steph can be a very productive player on a good team, but i've yet to see him on a GOOD team ie a team with a shot to make the Conf. Finals. I just love reading how teams got better when he left without mentioning, that he was replaced in each stop by another ALL STAR PG. We're not even talking about just a decent PG, but one of the top 5 in the league. Then add in the other additions each of his last two teams where able to make with the money they saved and the draft picks and its really not fair to make that statement. I just want to see Steph stay and get a chance to enjoy the good times when this team is finally built like a good team should be.

I think some of this years negative Steph press has been LB propoganda. He's been the one leaking all this nasty stuff to the media and its not right. You'd think that Steph was dogging it all year. Never mind that he was busting his hump on D much more than he ever has and defending SF's and SG's without complaining. He actually got injured hustling on D. WTF do you people freakin want? It just makes me sick how people only want to see the bad when it comes to STeph. He's got issues, but he's far from the bad player that LB tries to make him out to be. This team will need far more than just removing STeph for it to be a real contender.



Totally, totally agree with you..Larry's problem as well is that he needs to be the show...He wants the limelight....When this ship is turned around, he wants it on his terms...He loved it during the Knick 6 game win streak when the Garden chanted Larry, Larry, Larry....He wants to be looked at as the savior as one of his former players pointed out in Broussard article.....Funny thing that you mentioned brainwash, fellow posters here are convinced Knicks will get better as soon a Marbs is traded...I too want them to be better with or without Marbs, but they are kidding themsleves if the think Marbs is the source of the Knick woes this year...
djsunyc
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4/2/2006  2:26 PM
again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.
holfresh
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4/2/2006  2:40 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.



Dude, we had 40 different lineups this season alone...Pistons had 1 line thus far this year...How can anyone gel with 40 different lineups...Larry was starting people in their hometowns...explain that one to me...Are we not trying to win here? fact is the Knicks had better talent this year than last year when the Knicks made it to the playoffs....I rant so much about Larry because he gets a pass...I have always said this is on everyone...You can read what I have posted time and time again...This season is on Isiah, The players and Larry...But the only thing you guys see is Larry...
I pound him because everyone is trying to find scapegoats besides Larry...And it's his job primarily to get this team winning.....
martin
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4/2/2006  2:47 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.



Dude, we had 40 different lineups this season alone...Pistons had 1 line thus far this year...How can anyone gel with 40 different lineups...Larry was starting people in their hometowns...explain that one to me...Are we not trying to win here? fact is the Knicks had better talent this year than last year when the Knicks made it to the playoffs....I rant so much about Larry because he gets a pass...I have always said this is on everyone...You can read what I have posted time and time again...This season is on Isiah, The players and Larry...But the only thing you guys see is Larry...
I pound him because everyone is trying to find scapegoats besides Larry...And it's his job primarily to get this team winning.....


I think that's where the underlying difference is. A lot have begun to think that this year Larry has not given 1 iota of a thought about wins and losses. It's was the take 1 step back year before taking 2 steps forward year. If you only coach for wins and losses (with a team like this) you probably don't give as many minutes to guys like Woods, Frye, Lee, Nate. There is also some merit from a leader about finding out how your team and guys react to adversity (like the changing lineups).

If you want a straight-line answer to the win-loss record, Larry is as part of the problem as anyone, but I don't seem to remember him giving up or stopping coaching for 1 minute of the season, something that can't be said for some of the players.
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djsunyc
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4/2/2006  2:51 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.



Dude, we had 40 different lineups this season alone...Pistons had 1 line thus far this year...How can anyone gel with 40 different lineups...Larry was starting people in their hometowns...explain that one to me...Are we not trying to win here? fact is the Knicks had better talent this year than last year when the Knicks made it to the playoffs....I rant so much about Larry because he gets a pass...I have always said this is on everyone...You can read what I have posted time and time again...This season is on Isiah, The players and Larry...But the only thing you guys see is Larry...
I pound him because everyone is trying to find scapegoats besides Larry...And it's his job primarily to get this team winning.....


I think that's where the underlying difference is. A lot have begun to think that this year Larry has not given 1 iota of a thought about wins and losses. It's was the take 1 step back year before taking 2 steps forward year. If you only coach for wins and losses (with a team like this) you probably don't give as many minutes to guys like Woods, Frye, Lee, Nate. There is also some merit from a leader about finding out how your team and guys react to adversity (like the changing lineups).

If you want a straight-line answer to the win-loss record, Larry is as part of the problem as anyone, but I don't seem to remember him giving up or stopping coaching for 1 minute of the season, something that can't be said for some of the players.

exactly martin. it's NOT ABOUT WINS this year. if you can accept that, everything becomes alot more clearer. but some people keep holding on to winning 35-40 games with this team this year (which is probably optimistic) and won't let it go. that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
martin
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4/2/2006  2:57 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.



Dude, we had 40 different lineups this season alone...Pistons had 1 line thus far this year...How can anyone gel with 40 different lineups...Larry was starting people in their hometowns...explain that one to me...Are we not trying to win here? fact is the Knicks had better talent this year than last year when the Knicks made it to the playoffs....I rant so much about Larry because he gets a pass...I have always said this is on everyone...You can read what I have posted time and time again...This season is on Isiah, The players and Larry...But the only thing you guys see is Larry...
I pound him because everyone is trying to find scapegoats besides Larry...And it's his job primarily to get this team winning.....


I think that's where the underlying difference is. A lot have begun to think that this year Larry has not given 1 iota of a thought about wins and losses. It's was the take 1 step back year before taking 2 steps forward year. If you only coach for wins and losses (with a team like this) you probably don't give as many minutes to guys like Woods, Frye, Lee, Nate. There is also some merit from a leader about finding out how your team and guys react to adversity (like the changing lineups).

If you want a straight-line answer to the win-loss record, Larry is as part of the problem as anyone, but I don't seem to remember him giving up or stopping coaching for 1 minute of the season, something that can't be said for some of the players.

exactly martin. it's NOT ABOUT WINS this year. if you can accept that, everything becomes alot more clearer. but some people keep holding on to winning 35-40 games with this team this year (which is probably optimistic) and won't let it go. that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

DJ, the one huge, big question/problem I have with this theory (and I tend to buy into it pretty solidly) is whether or not LB/Isiah had this in mind before or after the Curry deal and the exchange of #1 picks. Maybe LB had seen enough of Curry last year and said "do it cause I can coach him and he has enough to work with and the #1 this year is crap anyway" or if Isiah went off on his own and didn't protect the pick. Or maybe LB didn't mention this to let Isiah dig his own hole, which I wouldn't be surprised at either. Thing is, I KNOW both Larry and Isiah loved Lee and probably ahd some collusion going on at the time of the draft which as before Larry signed. Who knows.
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djsunyc
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4/2/2006  3:11 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:

again, who here has blamed the "knicks" woes on steph? we lose b/c of defense and turnovers.

yet you keep saying that lb has cost us wins. so you're blaming him for the majority of our record.

and who gives a FLYING F CK if he gets all the credit or not. it's about what happens with the team. if the team wins, and he gets the cred, who cares as long as the team wins, right?

unbelievable how your on such a anti-lb kick. i hope you were this anti-isiah last year.



Dude, we had 40 different lineups this season alone...Pistons had 1 line thus far this year...How can anyone gel with 40 different lineups...Larry was starting people in their hometowns...explain that one to me...Are we not trying to win here? fact is the Knicks had better talent this year than last year when the Knicks made it to the playoffs....I rant so much about Larry because he gets a pass...I have always said this is on everyone...You can read what I have posted time and time again...This season is on Isiah, The players and Larry...But the only thing you guys see is Larry...
I pound him because everyone is trying to find scapegoats besides Larry...And it's his job primarily to get this team winning.....


I think that's where the underlying difference is. A lot have begun to think that this year Larry has not given 1 iota of a thought about wins and losses. It's was the take 1 step back year before taking 2 steps forward year. If you only coach for wins and losses (with a team like this) you probably don't give as many minutes to guys like Woods, Frye, Lee, Nate. There is also some merit from a leader about finding out how your team and guys react to adversity (like the changing lineups).

If you want a straight-line answer to the win-loss record, Larry is as part of the problem as anyone, but I don't seem to remember him giving up or stopping coaching for 1 minute of the season, something that can't be said for some of the players.

exactly martin. it's NOT ABOUT WINS this year. if you can accept that, everything becomes alot more clearer. but some people keep holding on to winning 35-40 games with this team this year (which is probably optimistic) and won't let it go. that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

DJ, the one huge, big question/problem I have with this theory (and I tend to buy into it pretty solidly) is whether or not LB/Isiah had this in mind before or after the Curry deal and the exchange of #1 picks. Maybe LB had seen enough of Curry last year and said "do it cause I can coach him and he has enough to work with and the #1 this year is crap anyway" or if Isiah went off on his own and didn't protect the pick. Or maybe LB didn't mention this to let Isiah dig his own hole, which I wouldn't be surprised at either. Thing is, I KNOW both Larry and Isiah loved Lee and probably ahd some collusion going on at the time of the draft which as before Larry signed. Who knows.

i think they both HIGHLY underestimated the players willingness to completely buy into the system and exactly how far away the guys were in terms of defense and bball iq.
holfresh
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4/2/2006  3:25 PM


If this is the case and wins are not important..And I do agree with this assessment...As a coach, you have to know that the team won't be playing 100 percent for you if you as a coach are not trying to do everthing possible to win...It's a 82 game season..How many players in sports are going to give you their all when the purpose isn't winning...now don't get me wrong..This year larry needed to see who fits into what he is trying to accomplish...Thats all good..But can we do it in some sort of context of trying to get a victory..How else are the players going to be interested in playing hard if they think the outcome doesn't matter?....I know it's shortsighted, but who is really buying into a system if we are not trying to win every game?...
djsunyc
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4/2/2006  3:47 PM
Posted by holfresh:

I know it's shortsighted, but who is really buying into a system if we are not trying to win every game?...

q1, q2, nate, jamal, lee, frye, jackie, malik

guys that play hard no matter what was going on...
DarkKnicks
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4/2/2006  4:27 PM
This must be a joke. Let's suppose that wins and loses did not matter to Larry (which is absolutely FALSE), well, then we should have used the season to (in Larrys 's words) "play the young guys". Did he do that? HELL NO!
This is the problem. We have WASTED almost a FULL season and Frye, Curry, Lee, Woods and Butler have not really played all they should have done, and this is just Larry's fault. If we were 10-55 but we have had enought of all of them, I would not have any problem with LB, but he has certainly done everything the "wrong way".
He has not played the young ones, and he has confused the veterans with his STUPID decisions, he has insulted almost everyone on the roster, he has made starting line-ups based on the cities players were born, he has changed line ups 30+ times and the worst thing is that he has fooled everybody to the point that almost everyone here believes we are a 25 wins team. Oh, and HE has destroyed the BEST player in our entire roster. And These are just facts. Now in my opinion HE has made two stupid trades recently.
Yes, of course its the players fault too, but I can't believe how anyone can say ANYTHING good about Larry's job this year. Stop talking about what he has done in the past, or how did he left the teams he has been to, talk about what he's done with the Knicks. It seems that when he says "I have to coach them better" all of a sudden he is a great coach. He might be a good coach, but if he just knows how to win with certain kind of players and a certain way of playing, he is not that great. If 25 wins is the best that he can get from this roster he certainly is not that good. That's my point.
Great coachs should win and stop talking trash.

[Edited by - DarkKnicks on 04-02-2006 4:29 PM]
Marv
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4/2/2006  4:59 PM
I still maintain that Larry's main problem this year was his mismanagement after Steph's injury and AD's suspension. During the win streak prior to the injury, Larry praised the hell out of Stephon as did virtually everyone else. And why not? If I recall correctly, he averaged 23 and 9, showed every sign of "leadership" and was being hailed as having "gotten" Larry's system.

For whatever reason, Larry decided to turn Nate and Lee, who were starters during the streak, into DNP's by the time Steph came back. The whole energy of the squad was different. AD's board work and defense were gone. Steph was playing hurt and obviously not 100%. And Larry seemed, from that point foward, bent on casting Steph as the scapegoat of the team.

Really makes no sense. We missed AD's presence, Lee's smart play and boarding at the 3, Nate's energy, intangibles and explosiveness, Jamal regressed after having excelled as the 3rd guard during the streak. Channing went into a rookie funk. Eddy was more exposed without AD and Lee doing the board work. And Steph was clearly far less than 100%. The same 100% that had just produced 23 and 9 and led the way to a 6-game winning streak, great vibes in the lockerroom, etc.

So why did Larry decide to devote the rest of the season to bashing Steph and baiting him into a public war? Larry was clearly in a position to win that war, which he has. But why do it? And why abandon the roles he had given to Lee and Nate? They played extemely well while starting. And the whole team was playing well, and with energy and spirit. Why did Larry decide to abandon the whole thing, send the season into the trash and position Steph to take the fall for it?

If some feel the answer is that the whloe squad is flawed and needs to be broken down and converted into a squad of Larry Brown-types, why not have continued to build on what was operating as a functional young core?
OldFan
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4/2/2006  5:24 PM
Posted by Marv:

I still maintain that Larry's main problem this year was his mismanagement after Steph's injury and AD's suspension. During the win streak prior to the injury, Larry praised the hell out of Stephon as did virtually everyone else. And why not? If I recall correctly, he averaged 23 and 9, showed every sign of "leadership" and was being hailed as having "gotten" Larry's system.

For whatever reason, Larry decided to turn Nate and Lee, who were starters during the streak, into DNP's by the time Steph came back. The whole energy of the squad was different. AD's board work and defense were gone. Steph was playing hurt and obviously not 100%. And Larry seemed, from that point foward, bent on casting Steph as the scapegoat of the team.

Really makes no sense. We missed AD's presence, Lee's smart play and boarding at the 3, Nate's energy, intangibles and explosiveness, Jamal regressed after having excelled as the 3rd guard during the streak. Channing went into a rookie funk. Eddy was more exposed without AD and Lee doing the board work. And Steph was clearly far less than 100%. The same 100% that had just produced 23 and 9 and led the way to a 6-game winning streak, great vibes in the lockerroom, etc.

So why did Larry decide to devote the rest of the season to bashing Steph and baiting him into a public war? Larry was clearly in a position to win that war, which he has. But why do it? And why abandon the roles he had given to Lee and Nate? They played extemely well while starting. And the whole team was playing well, and with energy and spirit. Why did Larry decide to abandon the whole thing, send the season into the trash and position Steph to take the fall for it?

If some feel the answer is that the whloe squad is flawed and needs to be broken down and converted into a squad of Larry Brown-types, why not have continued to build on what was operating as a functional young core?


Marv - I wish LB had picked a rotation. But I also think you're basing way too much on a six game span. Any team can go on a bit of a winning streak. But, this reminds me of when the Knicks won a few games with Frank Williams starting and all of a sudden we was the second coming. Nate got plenty of run this year. Enough to show potential but also that he wasn't a ready to be a consistent contributer. Lee I wish LB had played more - but I suspect more playing time would have shown he wasn't ready either. Basically, I think the six games showed that every dog has his day and little else.
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Coaching in this league may just have passed Larry bye, bye..
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