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the pulse of the board - how many people want to keep marbury?
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Allanfan20
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12/20/2005  8:12 PM
What's your definition of clicking? He's been as erratic as every other player on the Knicks.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
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bobs3304
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12/20/2005  8:22 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

What's your definition of clicking? He's been as erratic as every other player on the Knicks.

Well for 1, he's not starting. So it's easier to understand him being inconsistent if his ideal role is as a starter, which I believe.

Second, when he is playing PG, as opposed to SG (maybe you're confusing the 2), everyone seems to respond better to him than Steph.

That's just my observation.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Allanfan20
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12/20/2005  8:56 PM
Just b/c they like him better, which you are implying, doesn't mean he IS better. Look, Marbury is just our best decision maker now. He's had much more experience and he's been playing ball for a heck of a lot longer. Crawford players only a year of HS, a year of college, and with the crappy Bulls. He's like junior right now. He's a baby in a mans body, in terms of the NBA. He just doesn't know how to play point. He was never taught anywhere he went, until this season. He's not good at it yet. It's gonna take both him AND Nate some time. But you see the progress. However, Marbury is still the way better PG.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
bobs3304
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12/20/2005  9:20 PM
^ Everything you said made ZERO sense.

A.) Crawford is 25. "Baby".....? Wtf are you talking about.

B.) No, I wasn't implying his teammates LIKE him better. I was implying they respond better to him on the court when he's the one directing traffic. Ever notice how with Marbury, either he drives to the hoop, does a pick & roll, or waits for someone to spot in the corner? He's VERY limited in what he can do as a PG. Crawford isn't.

C.) I'll concede to this - Marbury is the better PLAYER. His talent is more potent. Only problem is that he's not versatile, and at almost 30 y/o, it's not like he's gonna be able to ADD to his game. More like trying to strip him of all the flaws.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
SlimPack
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12/20/2005  9:27 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Marbury is still the way better PG.

what makes you say this? theres no evidence to support this, and just becuase marbury has more experience doesnt automatically make him better. Crawford was never given the chance to play the PG spot under brown as much as marbury has even though in the limited minutes he has played at the point he seems to do a better job of gettin his teammates in involved then marbury, although I'll trust it's becuase larry knowns from what he has seen in practice that crawford wouldn't be able to do so consistently.
Allanfan20
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12/20/2005  9:58 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ Everything you said made ZERO sense.

A.) Crawford is 25. "Baby".....? Wtf are you talking about.

B.) No, I wasn't implying his teammates LIKE him better. I was implying they respond better to him on the court when he's the one directing traffic. Ever notice how with Marbury, either he drives to the hoop, does a pick & roll, or waits for someone to spot in the corner? He's VERY limited in what he can do as a PG. Crawford isn't.

C.) I'll concede to this - Marbury is the better PLAYER. His talent is more potent. Only problem is that he's not versatile, and at almost 30 y/o, it's not like he's gonna be able to ADD to his game. More like trying to strip him of all the flaws.

Bob, it's called a metaphor. Perhaps you have heard of that word before. It's a comparison w/o using like or as, and that's what I did by calling Crawford a baby. He's severely underdeveloped with a ton of raw talent, and everywhere he's gone, he was never taught how to properly utilize that talent. People just told him to go out there and do his thing, which was essentially jacking up shots. This is his first year being a basketball player getting good instruction and getting penalized for his mistakes. There's much more to being able to dribble penetrate and kick the ball out. It's being aware of your teammates every single move. It's being able to direct traffic during transition. It's making the RIGHT passes. Stephon is a much better passer right now than Jamal and he directs the offense much better. Jamal seems to force a lot of passes. Does Jamal maybe have a higher ceiling as a pg? Maybe, but right now, if I had to choose which player to play as the PG, I would choose Stephon with Jamal as the starting 2.

It's going to take Jamal time to learn the most difficult position to play in the NBA. That's why I said he's a baby. He'll be alright, but right now, Stephon has my nod.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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12/20/2005  10:17 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bonn1997:
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.

well frye as you know has been starting at the pf position lately and stephs +/- numbers have actually gotten worse

on court: -5.8, off court: +.9
http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM

Im not sure why or what exactly it means though.



[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 7:39 PM]

Quite the opposite. That's actually a large improvement with Frye in the SL.
SlimPack
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12/20/2005  10:24 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bonn1997:
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.

well frye as you know has been starting at the pf position lately and stephs +/- numbers have actually gotten worse

on court: -5.8, off court: +.9
http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM

Im not sure why or what exactly it means though.



[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 7:39 PM]

Quite the opposite. That's actually a large improvement with Frye in the SL.

are you sure? I dont remeber exactly what it was before but its positive when hes off the court and negative when he is on. plus his is the fourth worse on the team, are you sure his net -/+ went up?

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 10:25 PM]
Bonn1997
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12/20/2005  11:48 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by SlimPack:
Posted by Bonn1997:
I'm not sure, have we won any games where Frye started? I'm not convinced AD is as responsible for our woes as so many.
huh? I didn't even address the issue of whether we'd win more games. I just said Steph's +/- #s would look a lot better if such a large % of his minutes weren't with the player who has the worst +/- #s in the NBA.

well frye as you know has been starting at the pf position lately and stephs +/- numbers have actually gotten worse

on court: -5.8, off court: +.9
http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM

Im not sure why or what exactly it means though.



[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 7:39 PM]

Quite the opposite. That's actually a large improvement with Frye in the SL.

are you sure? I dont remeber exactly what it was before but its positive when hes off the court and negative when he is on. plus his is the fourth worse on the team, are you sure his net -/+ went up?

[Edited by - SlimPack on 12-20-2005 10:25 PM]

It was -10 about a week ago. Now it's -6.7. It's already improving now that he's getting more min with Frye and fewer with AD.


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12-20-2005 11:48 PM]
tkf
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12/21/2005  1:00 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by bobs3304:

^ Everything you said made ZERO sense.

A.) Crawford is 25. "Baby".....? Wtf are you talking about.

B.) No, I wasn't implying his teammates LIKE him better. I was implying they respond better to him on the court when he's the one directing traffic. Ever notice how with Marbury, either he drives to the hoop, does a pick & roll, or waits for someone to spot in the corner? He's VERY limited in what he can do as a PG. Crawford isn't.

C.) I'll concede to this - Marbury is the better PLAYER. His talent is more potent. Only problem is that he's not versatile, and at almost 30 y/o, it's not like he's gonna be able to ADD to his game. More like trying to strip him of all the flaws.

Bob, it's called a metaphor. Perhaps you have heard of that word before. It's a comparison w/o using like or as, and that's what I did by calling Crawford a baby. He's severely underdeveloped with a ton of raw talent, and everywhere he's gone, he was never taught how to properly utilize that talent. People just told him to go out there and do his thing, which was essentially jacking up shots. This is his first year being a basketball player getting good instruction and getting penalized for his mistakes. There's much more to being able to dribble penetrate and kick the ball out. It's being aware of your teammates every single move. It's being able to direct traffic during transition. It's making the RIGHT passes. Stephon is a much better passer right now than Jamal and he directs the offense much better. Jamal seems to force a lot of passes. Does Jamal maybe have a higher ceiling as a pg? Maybe, but right now, if I had to choose which player to play as the PG, I would choose Stephon with Jamal as the starting 2.

It's going to take Jamal time to learn the most difficult position to play in the NBA. That's why I said he's a baby. He'll be alright, but right now, Stephon has my nod.

I don't think so, I don't think steph is a much better passer than jamal. For example the knicks have 2 plays I think where their bigmen, either frye or curry, especially curry does that spin for the allyoop pass. Marbs from what I have seen does not and is very reluctant to throw that pass and you can see the frustration on the faces of the bigs.. craw on the other hand throws that pass with ease, he is a much more creative passer than marbs is, and right now this team needs a jolt of something...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Allanfan20
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12/21/2005  1:28 AM
Creative passing is important, but simple fundamental passing is more important. Marbury is exceptional at that, and may be one of the few guys on the team that can do it. There's another guy that was good at it, and I argued about it endlessly but got stomped on for it, and his name is Allan Houston. He fed the post nicely and we certainly could use a guy like that cause nobody is doing that. I actually see Nate trying to do it, however.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
bobs3304
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12/21/2005  1:32 AM
Houston was a very able passer.

Only difference is that he wasn't a ****in PG man.

Marbury is. And if you're not able to freelance you shouldn't be running the point PERIOD.

As Martin alluded to the other day, Steph is seriously LIMITED in what he can do as a PG.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Allanfan20
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12/21/2005  1:47 AM
First off, I know Houston wasn't a PG. All I said was he was a good fundamental passer who could feed the post good and consistently, and of course we could use that. Most other people would beg to differ, yet destroy Marbury or Crawford when they don't do that.

Second off, how about taking a look at Stephons options. He has Frye who is a good pick and roll mate and spot up shooter. Then he has Curry who doesn't often work hard to get into proper position to recieve the post feed. After that, the guy he is really comfortable with is Crawford and he's super erratic this season. Q has been God awful. He can trust Taylor in the post from time to time. So really, who does Marbury have to go to consistently besides Frye and Mo T and the erratic Crawford (Who I'll say over and over again, is my fav player with Frye). He really doesn't have many options out there. He's doing his passing. He's playing unselfishly. He's doing everything he can in a completely new system. Stephon IS NOT the problem here. It's this whole roster put together. Something has to be done, whether that's trading Steph for a BIG piece or a top 3 draft pick, or just hoping we all improve from within' or using the expiring contracts for big chips.

Yes, Steph has a ton of faults, and yes, he misses a lot of cutters. I will give you that, and it is difficulty. But we have flaws in other players that are faaaaaaaar more exposed right now.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
bobs3304
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12/21/2005  1:58 AM
You can nitpick about all our other players supposed flaws, but the numbers don't lie.

Marbury's +/- is pretty telling of how effective he is at the point. When you compare his to Crawford's it's pretty obvious. I don't feel I need to go into detail.

I think you're confusing PG with player in general.

Marbury is a great talent, but his talents aren't suited for that of a PG. End of story.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Bippity10
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12/21/2005  10:32 AM
That's the key: Jamal throws a couple alley opp passes and everyone says "see he runs the offense better"

All I'm saying is 74 assists and 49 turnovers. Until that changes he will never start at the point
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martin
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12/21/2005  10:38 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

That's the key: Jamal throws a couple alley opp passes and everyone says "see he runs the offense better"

All I'm saying is 74 assists and 49 turnovers. Until that changes he will never start at the point

true, but you would say that he has better passing instincts than Steph, albeit all the mistakes of a PG without discipline. And that is why he is coming off the bench this year and playing mostly SG. Brown is honing this kid piece by piece in the hopes that maybe he can be a PG. I don't think anyone would disagree with me that Jamal would be a tough cover for any opposing PG with his handle, quickness and height. He just has to know how to make better decisions, pass more smartly, and run offense, which is the learning curve for about 95% of PGs coming out of college.
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Bippity10
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12/21/2005  10:52 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

That's the key: Jamal throws a couple alley opp passes and everyone says "see he runs the offense better"

All I'm saying is 74 assists and 49 turnovers. Until that changes he will never start at the point


true, but you would say that he has better passing instincts than Steph, albeit all the mistakes of a PG without discipline. And that is why he is coming off the bench this year and playing mostly SG. Brown is honing this kid piece by piece in the hopes that maybe he can be a PG. I don't think anyone would disagree with me that Jamal would be a tough cover for any opposing PG with his handle, quickness and height. He just has to know how to make better decisions, pass more smartly, and run offense, which is the learning curve for about 95% of PGs coming out of college.


That's my point. Most people hate Marbury so they see what they want to see. they just want him out so they see Craw as being better. I don't care who the pG is. I like both Marbs and Craw. They are both severly flawed and both learning. I want the best man for the job. Craw has some potential to play the point. Marbs may help us more at the SG. But right now Crawford is not ready(74 assists and 49 turnovers says it all but for some reason is being dismissed. That is inexcusable for a high school PG). LB will continue to work with both and whoever is better at any given time will start at the point LB could care less which one it is. But right now Marbs is a better Pg and that is why he is starting.

Listen LB has said from the beginning that he wants to bring in a "true PG". I have no issue with Craw earning the job and taking it away. I have no issue with this. I have no issue with moving Steph to the 2. I am not married to STeph and don't give a rats asse what position he plays as long as he helps my team win. But in the meantime until Craw or Nate or someone we acquire in a trade is better than Steph, Steph is our PG.
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tkf
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12/21/2005  10:55 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Creative passing is important, but simple fundamental passing is more important. Marbury is exceptional at that, and may be one of the few guys on the team that can do it. There's another guy that was good at it, and I argued about it endlessly but got stomped on for it, and his name is Allan Houston. He fed the post nicely and we certainly could use a guy like that cause nobody is doing that. I actually see Nate trying to do it, however.


I agree allan, I said this before, steph is one of the best at making the sure and obvious pass, he gets the job done there, but often as a PG you are called on to create, create lanes and opportunities when there seems to be none. Nash is great at this, so is kidd, and at times Jamal, now I heard someone say, well jamal throws an allyoop and we all think he can pass. Now I hope that person does not think I or anyone else around here is that shallow. Heck steve nash has a ton of turnovers, I remember in pheonix kidd had a triple double vs the knicks, one of the stat lines was 10 turnovers. That comes with handling the ball a lot and even taking some chances, Jamal is creative in that aspect, classic example the pass vs the bulls to ariza, jamal could of easily taken that to the basket, he instead threw the behind the head pass to ariza, yea a little higher risk, but a high reward play(momentum wise), ariza then dunked it on the head of nocioni, the garden went wild, the team went wild, the momentum shifted, game was over... All I am saying is that when teamates know they have a PG that will find them, that will look for them and do whatever it takes to get them the ball, they will run and they will move without the ball.... That is why I like craw at times running the point. I do agree he needs to tone it down a bit,take care of the ball more, but I like his style and his passing ability...


[Edited by - tkf on 12-21-2005 11:01 AM]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bippity10
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12/21/2005  11:02 AM
I agree with you TKF. When a PG finds his teammates they move without the ball. I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I will also say that when I PG turns the ball over too much it doesn't matter if he finds his teammates because he will not be starting at the point. Some of the best passers in the NBa are riding the pine because they turn the ball over too much
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tkf
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12/21/2005  11:05 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

I agree with you TKF. When a PG finds his teammates they move without the ball. I agree with this wholeheartedly. But I will also say that when I PG turns the ball over too much it doesn't matter if he finds his teammates because he will not be starting at the point. Some of the best passers in the NBa are riding the pine because they turn the ball over too much

you have a point there...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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