[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

marbury asks to be the SG...and brown says NO (article)
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 5 of 6 « First‹ Previous 3  4  5  6 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
boomann
Posts: 20685
Alba Posts: 26
Joined: 6/29/2005
Member: #938
USA
11/18/2005  1:53 PM
very good discussion going on here.

gotta commend everyone for actually backing their arguements in a civil manner. can't say i've seen THAT before

Well that didn't last long did it
"We need another shot blocker and we need more girth in the middle, once that happens we have a chance to be a pretty decent team" Isiah on draft night
AUTOADVERT
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
11/18/2005  1:54 PM
sorry, you guys can have this thread back.
all kool aid all the time.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
11/18/2005  1:59 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

DJ, it's these types of posts that lose me. While everyone seems to be saying it's just a matter of marbs listening to LB, you keep sticking to the hokey assumption that he's not a true leader.

However, in contrast, no one is able to point out who is a true leader until they have already won.

Is Iverson a true leader?
Posted by djsunyc:

[quote]here's one little point tho...i think we can all see that steph is not a true leader. there may be one in our midst...frye? craw? who knows but as long as steph is around, that leader will have a tough time emerging. so hopefully we all make this a smooth transition and that steph gets to the SG and goes nuts.



is iverson a leader? uhhh, yeah, i don't think there's even a question about this.

i can't remember reading anything from ex-teammates praising steph and saying that he made them better. and really, not until this year has he made ANY type of committment to defense.

at the end of the day, winning cures all. so we're gonna have to stick this one out. but nothing historically has shown it.
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
11/18/2005  2:06 PM
can't remember reading anything from ex-teammates praising steph Iverson and saying that he made them better.

I'm just saying that nobody has called anybody a true leader until they have won a championship.

Barkley almost. Ewing...well, if you live in the tri-state area, yes. Even Nash is losing his luster...until you win, you're not a "true" leader.

I understand that being in new york and being a knick fan you have to be harder on your heroes...but it's just strange that people are all over marbs when he loses and jock him when he wins.

I think for the most part, people have good knowledge and chat it up like champs, but there are some of you that say statements that can't be backed up.

He led the knicks into the playoffs when he joined that crappy team two years ago.

He led the olympic team to one of their few victories.

After a loss, I know I should give you some leeway, and usually you start out pretty even handed, then suddenly, for no appearant reason you toss out a line like:
"Marbs just isn't good"

and that's when I have to be the reason police on you.

marbs is as much of a leader and Iverson (ask Tim Thomas, Stackhouse, Glenn Robinson, kenny thomas...)
all kool aid all the time.
Knight
Posts: 22775
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 7/21/2005
Member: #968
11/18/2005  2:07 PM
Marbs just isn't good.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
11/18/2005  2:16 PM
that I can take.
all kool aid all the time.
boomann
Posts: 20685
Alba Posts: 26
Joined: 6/29/2005
Member: #938
USA
11/18/2005  2:22 PM
can't remember reading anything from ex-teammates praising steph and saying that he made them better

Have you ever heard of Barbosa or what about Sweetney. They both have said publicly that Marbury helped them become better players
"We need another shot blocker and we need more girth in the middle, once that happens we have a chance to be a pretty decent team" Isiah on draft night
bobs3304
Posts: 24827
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 7/5/2005
Member: #948
11/18/2005  2:31 PM
Stop making this into a "bash Marbs" thread.

That's stupid and pointless. Besides, if you ever talked like that to him at a Knicks game he'd be liable to jump you Coney-Island style.

The problem is not directly Marbury's. Putting blame on someone b/c they're trying to be turned into something they're not (ie: clutch, pass-first) is the coach's and GM's fault.

If only they would wake up and smell the beans -- Marbury is a star, but not someone you lean heavily on. That's a mistake that's been made over and over and over by some of the best GM's out there -- Colangelo, Thorn, etc, etc.

I posed the question before - can you actually LEARN to be unselfish (ie: pass-first PG) and clutch?

If the answer is yes, then I def. stand corrected. But I think the answer, as Booman stated before, is - you gotta have those "bones" to begin with...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 11-18-2005 2:33 PM]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
11/18/2005  3:03 PM
I think the problem with Marb is that everybody think or want him to be a Star including himself.
The truth is - he is good player but not a star.
He is good shooter - but not particularly good on 3’th or midrange.
He is strong but not long enough.
He can attack the basket but predictable and teams can adjust to him.
He can draw fouls but cannot shoot frees consistently.
He can be a good passer but selfish.
He can defend and hustle but lazy.
He want to be a leader but... too stupid and insensitive.
He will be much better if he will just play the game and do things that he can do best instead of trying reach the sky and proclaim himself the best.
This what LB trying to accomplish with Marb and to make it work Marb needs to admit that he is not and never be a star until somebody like LB, IT, his temmates will make him look like one...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024
11/18/2005  4:05 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by boomann:
Can you really LEARN how to "take over" in crunch time? I mean, can you?

You gotta have clutch bones in your body.

that's what i think too.

i don't think it's something you can learn per say...

I know as a big Steph detractor I'm not supposed to say this, but I think Steph can play clutch and has periodically during his career. He played big in that all-star game with Iverson, he had a great win against San Antonio in the playoffs, and his 31 point outing in the Olympics was lovely.

But his approach in NY has been less stellar, and I'm starting to think Steph is a better small market player. I don't think he's up to the scrutiny of the grand stage here.

And as to whether someone can be made into a playmaker, i'd say yes, as Billips and glimpses of Marbruy will attest. One can NOT be made into a Cousy, Stockton, Magic, Nash, and Kidd type of court-visionaries, but one can be made into a Billups/Clyde guy who subjugates his offense for that of the teams, gives the ball up early in the clock, makes passes that lead to other passes, rebound to push tempo, feed someone else to finish on a break, pick one's spots within the flow of an offense, know when to push, when to slow, when to pass, when to shoot, etc.

In that style of offense Steph's assist numbers would go down but the team assist numbers would go up. last season I researched Steph's effect on team assists at each of his career stops and virtually without incident they went down upon his arrival and back up after his departure. That told me Steph's style of ball domination was sucking the life out of his teams offense. I can post that write-up here if anyone is interested.

Somehow one has to trust in the team oriented method and believe one's greatness will still be revealed by their effect on the court over the boxscore. Somehow I believe Steph feels if team assists go up while his go down it's disempowering to him. Just as he felt useless against LA in spite of one of his better quarters of distribution ever.
rvhoss
Posts: 24943
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/2/2004
Member: #777
Switzerland
11/18/2005  4:10 PM
I think LB's system is the type of system that as you try to learn it, you're like:
"this is crap, what happened to running plays for me!!"
But as everybody on the team starts to understand it, marbs will be the shooting point guard that he is.

It's always like that with a new system.

LB and Phil have exactly different coaching styles, one produces dynasties, the other produces winners. (LB had his first NBA championship 2 year's ago).

If marbury was in LA with Phil, he's be getting 30/10 and the knicks would have the same record as the lakers, and vice versa if LB was in LA.

At this point, I'd rather have LB...he teaches and makes everyone better, Phil maximizes superstars, LB creates them.
all kool aid all the time.
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024
11/18/2005  4:50 PM
Posted by SlimPack:
wow steph was the reason d'antoni didnt go uptempo two seasons ago in phoenix? i didnt know that,

yeah, it was around the time I learned that that I really soured on steph. I'd figured he'd cleaned up his rep and matured since NJ and we were getting the new wizened Steph, ready to take on a leadership role in NY.

But slowly, slowly I learned Steph was getting massages during practice rather than scrimmaging; that he told Lenny his defensive schemes "stink" when he was criticized for blowing the rotations; that Kurt wanted to kick Steph's ass and said "now I see why you lose everywhere you go" and half the team sided with Kurt.

Then I read this (below) about backbiting and further uncoachability (for lack of a better word) in Phoenix.

And of course we had our 3-19 losing plummet that exactly coincided with Steph's "I'm the best" comments. Brian Scalabrini in a WFAN interview said he felt and heard that the Nets had Kidds back in the matter and would not let Kidd lose, but Steph didn't get that support from his team, they left his arse out to dry. and thus we went from leading the Atlantic with a 16-13 record into an unrecoverable nosedive to lose the division.

Anyway, the realization that Steph finds himself in the center of turmoil at every stop was just too much for me. Enough already! Steph, go about your job, leave it all on the court, and then just shut up and do it again the next game.

Hardaway: Old Suns Team Didn't Buy Into D'Antoni's System
PHOENIX - Penny Hardaway and Stephon Marbury departed Phoenix 13 months ago when they were traded to the Knicks. They returned to America West Arena last night to find a vastly different Suns team that leads the NBA with 109 points per game and now ranks as a legitimate title contender with its fast-paced style.

Asked last night if he's shocked by the turnaround, Hardaway said Suns coach Mike D'Antoni wasn't able to sell his European-style offense to his players last season, but that changed when Phoenix added point guard Steve Nash and small forward Quentin Richardson as free agents, using the salary-cap space created by the Marbury trade.

"Coach D'Antoni is a great coach," Hardaway said. "He tried to have us buy into this system when we were here, and we really didn't. There was so much turmoil going on. Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson came in and had the type of game Coach wanted. That's up and down, push the ball, kick it ahead and it doesn't matter who shoots or who scores ... We had enough on the team to get it done, but we just didn't buy into the system."

Hardaway was upset in Phoenix because his playing time was reduced to make way for younger players. Marbury was in the middle of the turmoil that enveloped the Suns.

"It was like guys talking behind each other's backs, guys being selfish, everybody was trying to get their own," Hardaway said. "That leads to trades, and that broke the team up. It doesn't seem like they have any of that going on right now."
eViL
Posts: 25412
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 1/21/2004
Member: #561
USA
11/18/2005  6:19 PM
Steph cares about stats so much. It's like he drafted himself for his own fantasy team.
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
rojasmas
Posts: 21207
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/25/2004
Member: #639
11/18/2005  6:30 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head. Steph cares about stats too much. Kobe went off and he went 2-9. I honestly think Iverson and Steph would be happy averaging 30 points a game and having their teams lose. I knew he would never work out with Brown. Trade him, if someone can afford him with his contract. Have to check the salaries, but is Paul Pierce making anywhere near what Steph makes? We might have to give them Ariza too. Boston has a lot of young forwards so they might move Pierce, and Doc Rivers likes Marbury I am told.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
SlimPack
Posts: 23588
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/14/2005
Member: #1009
USA
11/18/2005  7:00 PM
^ I don't think thats it. on the stephen a smith show steph said that "If I get 5 points and we win, thats the person that I want to be. It doesn't matter to me I just want to win." when asked if he could score like AI.




[Edited by - slimpack on 11-18-2005 7:04 PM]
rojasmas
Posts: 21207
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/25/2004
Member: #639
11/18/2005  7:04 PM
They all know the right thing to say. How they really feel is another story.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
11/18/2005  9:27 PM
If he cared about stats too much, I think he'd be taking FAR more than 12 shots per game!
OldFan
Posts: 21456
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2003
Member: #446
11/18/2005  10:18 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

If he cared about stats too much, I think he'd be taking FAR more than 12 shots per game!


He scored 45 pts in a game the knicks lost by TEN and he's complaining that he didn't get a chance to do it again. I've been neutral on Marbury trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. I never liked his attitude but he had skills. Well, his attitude really negates his skills. I never like to say never - but I'm pretty close to believing this team can't win with him. He just doesn't get it. 45 pts in a loss looks good when you've only been in the league for a few years - but at this point he could average 45 pts and if the Knicks continued to lose he'd still be viewed as a loser.

If I thought we could get anything of value - I'd say trade him now. As it is I guess I'll have to hope for a miracle.
bobs3304
Posts: 24827
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 7/5/2005
Member: #948
11/18/2005  10:52 PM
I know as a big Steph detractor I'm not supposed to say this, but I think Steph can play clutch and has periodically during his career. He played big in that all-star game with Iverson, he had a great win against San Antonio in the playoffs, and his 31 point outing in the Olympics was lovely.

But his approach in NY has been less stellar, and I'm starting to think Steph is a better small market player. I don't think he's up to the scrutiny of the grand stage here.

And as to whether someone can be made into a playmaker, i'd say yes, as Billips and glimpses of Marbruy will attest. One can NOT be made into a Cousy, Stockton, Magic, Nash, and Kidd type of court-visionaries, but one can be made into a Billups/Clyde guy who subjugates his offense for that of the teams, gives the ball up early in the clock, makes passes that lead to other passes, rebound to push tempo, feed someone else to finish on a break, pick one's spots within the flow of an offense, know when to push, when to slow, when to pass, when to shoot, etc.

In that style of offense Steph's assist numbers would go down but the team assist numbers would go up. last season I researched Steph's effect on team assists at each of his career stops and virtually without incident they went down upon his arrival and back up after his departure. That told me Steph's style of ball domination was sucking the life out of his teams offense. I can post that write-up here if anyone is interested.

Somehow one has to trust in the team oriented method and believe one's greatness will still be revealed by their effect on the court over the boxscore. Somehow I believe Steph feels if team assists go up while his go down it's disempowering to him. Just as he felt useless against LA in spite of one of his better quarters of distribution ever.


excellent post blue...

just reinforces what we've all known (or should know)


DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rojasmas
Posts: 21207
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/25/2004
Member: #639
11/18/2005  11:00 PM
He is inhibited under LB's system. In the flow of the offense he isn't getting enough shots for his liking. 12 a game, whatever, that's why he is pissed. Get it. He wants to be the be-all, end-all, with LB's system it isn't happening. Thus the diatribe the other day....
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Page 5 of 6 « First‹ Previous 3  4  5  6 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
marbury asks to be the SG...and brown says NO (article)
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy