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djsunyc
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8/30/2005  8:59 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I agree with most of what you said, DJ, but have a few comments below.
i know, i'm used to is breaking it down and building it back up. i've never seen a team so CARELESSLY throw money around like us before.
What about the Yankees? The Knicks are basically building to become basketball's version of the Yankees, except I think Isiah is doing better operating under a salary cap than Cashman would if he had to start out with a garbage team and work under a cap.
last year was an UTTER FAILURE. that's ONE ENTIRE SEASON. so hells yeah, there's stuff to b tch about. and if you don't think there is, then you're not seeing the entire picture.
If you admit that the team is rebuilding (which you did; you called a different manner of rebuilding), then why does the first full year have to be judged by wins and losses rather than by roster moves?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-30-2005 8:31 PM]


they can't be bball's version b/c they can't just go out and get whomever they wanted. b/c of the cap, you CAN NOT compare the two sports. it's a totally different way in aquiring players since the options are limited in bball - ESPECIALLY if you're over the cap.

entering last season, WE WERE NOT REBUILDING. we just traded 2 #1's for steph. it wasn't until the disastrous january that isiah completely switched gears and got more picks from this draft. rebuilding means ariza and sweets get 25-30 mins a night or more. we did not see that. penny and h20 were part of the plans.
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Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  9:51 PM
rebuilding means ariza and sweets get 25-30 mins a night or more. we did not see that. penny and h20 were part of the plans.
rebuilding means our #43 pick must get 30 mpg? That strikes me as abusrd. Most lottery picks didn't get that much playing time. He was drafted 43rd but ranked 15th in minutes played among rookies! I think that's pretty good evidence that the team IS rebuilding. Is every team that drafted a rookie earlier than Ariza and played him fewer minutes not rebuilding, or is there a different standard for the Knicks? Even Al Jefferson who people say has star potential and is on a team that most people think is rebuilding got fewer minutes. So did Tony Allen and Devin Harris. Some rookies who got nearly identical minutes (+/- 3 per game relative to Ariza) include Sebastian Telfair, David Harrison, Matt Bonner, Jameer Nelson. Are NONE of these teams rebuilding? Their rookies (LOTTERY picks in Harris's, Telfair's, and Jefferson's cases) got about the same mpg as Ariza. It's not like they were all on good teams that *had* to play veterans either; many of them were on lottery teams.

WE WERE NOT REBUILDING. we just traded 2 #1's for steph.
So you cannot under any circumstances trade a first round draft pick if you're rebuilding? That's an awfully strict criterion that I don't understand. I don't see why you can't trade picks to get a (then) 24 year old stud at one of the two toughest positions to get stars.




[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-30-2005 9:54 PM]
islesfan
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8/30/2005  10:14 PM
Ok, now any comments concerning your idiotic Yankee analogy? Don't you think that spending a ton of money in a salary capped sport is a little different than doing it in a sport without a cap. And if you do, then what exactly was the point in bringing up the Yankees?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  10:49 PM
hardcore hit it on the head.
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Fellas, there's been too much good happen to this team this offseason for any legitimate debate on the justification of having some optimism.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-30-2005 10:51 PM]
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Nalod
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8/30/2005  10:51 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by fishmike:

Its ok to be a homer... it really is. I mean honest to god I think its great. You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year.

Fish, if you replace the word "think" with the word "hope", it would accurately describe the perfect fan IMO. When several good moves are made, most fans would simply hope that the things you mentioned above would happen sooner than later.

Back in the dark days of LayDown, I was called a hater all the time, but didn't care because there were changes I wanted to see happen. Those dreams are now the reality, so I guess I am a Homer.

I wear that title like the badge of honor it is. A lot of us do, and no one should have to start a kool-aid thread any more than some folks would need to start a "Doom & Gloom, sky is falling no matter what improvements we make" thread.

Fellas, there's been too much good happen to this team this offseason for any legitimate debate on the justification of having some optimism. The offseason is driving us mad from boredom, and now we're turning on eachother like we're all stranded on some island. Let's just hope for the best a little more. There are more than enough people (that most of us come in contact with at some point) out there ready and willing to hate relentlessly on our Knicks. There should be alot more positive reinforcement IMO. Of course there are topics we all have our opinions about, sometimes it seems like the devil's advocate thing gets taken too far and stuff gets ugly. That's been happening in alot of the threads lately. Cats are getting really antsy on both "sides", so maybe we all need to take a deep breath and chill. Then we can get back to hoping for the best for the Knicks.

Damn, the season can't start soon enough.






That was phuching beautiful man, Just wonderful! You will bring us all togehter!
djsunyc
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8/30/2005  10:52 PM
martin, andrew, please take away nalod's "[ img ]" button on his screen.
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  10:56 PM

Posted by islesfan:

Ok, now any comments concerning your idiotic Yankee analogy? Don't you think that spending a ton of money in a salary capped sport is a little different than doing it in a sport without a cap. And if you do, then what exactly was the point in bringing up the Yankees?

Though, I hate commenting on something Isles said, I have to point out the fact you simply ignored what bonn said specifically to disagree with him:
Posted by islesfan:

What about the Yankees? The Knicks are basically building to become basketball's version of the Yankees, except I think Isiah is doing better operating under a salary cap than Cashman would if he had to start out with a garbage team and work under a cap.

Now, I know you keep saying you have something to say, but all it seems you have is nit picky disagreements. Which usually end up in off subject arguments. Not sure how you got Fish to drink that stuff you are selling, but one day you'll figure it out.

Dang, I know I'm in for it now.
all kool aid all the time.
rvhoss
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8/30/2005  10:59 PM
D'OH. I forgot the subject myself (I'm such a hypocrite )

I think one of the great things about that trade is that it brought a little magic to the garden, so saying trading for marbs was a failure, in my mind, is equivalent to saying we shouldn't have drafted ewing because he never won a ring.

It will never be viewed as a failure.

I agree with most in saying, we better be .500 this year.

And luckily, we will.

[Edited by - rvhoss on 08-30-2005 10:59 PM]
all kool aid all the time.
Bonn1997
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8/30/2005  11:09 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

Posted by islesfan:

Ok, now any comments concerning your idiotic Yankee analogy? Don't you think that spending a ton of money in a salary capped sport is a little different than doing it in a sport without a cap. And if you do, then what exactly was the point in bringing up the Yankees?

Though, I hate commenting on something Isles said, I have to point out the fact you simply ignored what bonn said specifically to disagree with him:
Posted by islesfan:

What about the Yankees? The Knicks are basically building to become basketball's version of the Yankees, except I think Isiah is doing better operating under a salary cap than Cashman would if he had to start out with a garbage team and work under a cap.

Now, I know you keep saying you have something to say, but all it seems you have is nit picky disagreements. Which usually end up in off subject arguments. Not sure how you got Fish to drink that stuff you are selling, but one day you'll figure it out.

Dang, I know I'm in for it now.

thanks; you beat me to it. I actually mentioned the difference with the cap TWICE in one sentence. Maybe Isles would have noticed it the third time!


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-30-2005 11:17 PM]
islesfan
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8/30/2005  11:23 PM
You mention it but then you go on and talk about it like it's some kind of imaginary thing. I ask again, whats the point in even bringing up the Yankees? We're talking about the NBA and their salary cap and you're bringing up a team in a different sport without a salary cap.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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8/30/2005  11:36 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

martin, andrew, please take away nalod's "[ img ]" button on his screen.


LOL, I was noticing that he has too much extra time on his hands. You know those old guys, learn one trick and they play it over and over again.
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Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  12:00 AM
Posted by islesfan:

You mention it but then you go on and talk about it like it's some kind of imaginary thing.
huh? I have no idea what you mean
islesfan
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8/31/2005  12:14 AM
You bring it up but only in a hypothetical situation. What was the point of bringing up the Yankees? We're in a basketball forum, discussing basketball and you bring up the Yankees. Why? How is that relevant?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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8/31/2005  12:16 AM
Posted by rvhoss:

Posted by islesfan:

Ok, now any comments concerning your idiotic Yankee analogy? Don't you think that spending a ton of money in a salary capped sport is a little different than doing it in a sport without a cap. And if you do, then what exactly was the point in bringing up the Yankees?

Though, I hate commenting on something Isles said, I have to point out the fact you simply ignored what bonn said specifically to disagree with him:
Posted by islesfan:

What about the Yankees? The Knicks are basically building to become basketball's version of the Yankees, except I think Isiah is doing better operating under a salary cap than Cashman would if he had to start out with a garbage team and work under a cap.

Now, I know you keep saying you have something to say, but all it seems you have is nit picky disagreements. Which usually end up in off subject arguments. Not sure how you got Fish to drink that stuff you are selling, but one day you'll figure it out.

Dang, I know I'm in for it now.


Still waiting for you to tell us how David Lee has already panned out without ever playing even a second in the NBA.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  8:43 AM
Posted by islesfan:

You bring it up but only in a hypothetical situation. What was the point of bringing up the Yankees? We're in a basketball forum, discussing basketball and you bring up the Yankees. Why? How is that relevant?
He was looking for an example of a team that spends huge amounts of money and succeeds. It's true (as I repeatedly acknowledged) that the Yankees don't have to operate within a cap. However, only a small minority of their players were obtained through free agency anyway (where the cap and max salary rules apply). Two (Sheffield and Matsui) of the nine every day players were acquired through FA and only one of the regular starters this season (Mussina) was acquired through FA (although it's hard to know who a regular starter is on the team). The huge majority of the players on the Yankees, like the Knicks, have either been drafted by the Yankees or acquired via trade in which NY took back far more salary than it gave up. The situations are obviously not identical because of the salary rules in baseball, but the strategies the Knicks are now using with Isiah and the Yankees have been using for many years to get the majority of their players have many similarities.
fishmike
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8/31/2005  9:18 AM
Its the dumbest most irrelevant example you could think of. The Yankees have won their division for 9 straight years. They have 4 titles, and 6 pennants. When they "overpay" its usually for established players playing at a very high level. Off all the money Isiah has added the only player he's added thats in his prime and a premier player is Marbury. Nobody in the NBA operates like the Knicks, and successful team sure as hell dont.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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8/31/2005  9:23 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:
Posted by fishmike:

Its ok to be a homer... it really is. I mean honest to god I think its great. You think everything Knicks smells like roses, that every move will be great, that every rookie will be a star and every veteran will find their niche. You think we will compete for a title this year.

Fish, if you replace the word "think" with the word "hope", it would accurately describe the perfect fan IMO. When several good moves are made, most fans would simply hope that the things you mentioned above would happen sooner than later.

Back in the dark days of LayDown, I was called a hater all the time, but didn't care because there were changes I wanted to see happen. Those dreams are now the reality, so I guess I am a Homer.

I wear that title like the badge of honor it is. A lot of us do, and no one should have to start a kool-aid thread any more than some folks would need to start a "Doom & Gloom, sky is falling no matter what improvements we make" thread.

Fellas, there's been too much good happen to this team this offseason for any legitimate debate on the justification of having some optimism. The offseason is driving us mad from boredom, and now we're turning on eachother like we're all stranded on some island. Let's just hope for the best a little more. There are more than enough people (that most of us come in contact with at some point) out there ready and willing to hate relentlessly on our Knicks. There should be alot more positive reinforcement IMO. Of course there are topics we all have our opinions about, sometimes it seems like the devil's advocate thing gets taken too far and stuff gets ugly. That's been happening in alot of the threads lately. Cats are getting really antsy on both "sides", so maybe we all need to take a deep breath and chill. Then we can get back to hoping for the best for the Knicks.

Damn, the season can't start soon enough.





That was phuching beautiful man, Just wonderful! You will bring us all togehter!



LOL Nalod that dude looks like Mayor Bloomberg.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
djsunyc
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8/31/2005  9:50 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:

You bring it up but only in a hypothetical situation. What was the point of bringing up the Yankees? We're in a basketball forum, discussing basketball and you bring up the Yankees. Why? How is that relevant?
He was looking for an example of a team that spends huge amounts of money and succeeds. It's true (as I repeatedly acknowledged) that the Yankees don't have to operate within a cap. However, only a small minority of their players were obtained through free agency anyway (where the cap and max salary rules apply). Two (Sheffield and Matsui) of the nine every day players were acquired through FA and only one of the regular starters this season (Mussina) was acquired through FA (although it's hard to know who a regular starter is on the team). The huge majority of the players on the Yankees, like the Knicks, have either been drafted by the Yankees or acquired via trade in which NY took back far more salary than it gave up. The situations are obviously not identical because of the salary rules in baseball, but the strategies the Knicks are now using with Isiah and the Yankees have been using for many years to get the majority of their players have many similarities.


bonn - i really wasn't looking for anything. i said i've NEVER seen a team operate like this before and no team ever has.

look at it this way, when was the last team to benefit from a firesale to put them over the hump? probably detroit, right? but they were already a 50 win team with the pieces in place and a style of play. so they were operating at the cap level until they had to make that final push to get to the promise land.

we were already over by $50+mil. we didn't bring down salary at all. so we're venturing on new territory here. we're trying to put the pieces together while completely disregarding the cap. that's completely new to me. we've proven it doesn't work for 5 years now. maybe it takes 10 years for the plan to come to fruition, who knows. all i hope is that it will.
Bonn1997
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8/31/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Its the dumbest most irrelevant example you could think of. The Yankees have won their division for 9 straight years. They have 4 titles, and 6 pennants. When they "overpay" its usually for established players playing at a very high level. Off all the money Isiah has added the only player he's added thats in his prime and a premier player is Marbury. Nobody in the NBA operates like the Knicks, and successful team sure as hell dont.
I knew you'd hate the example. I said the Knicks are building to become the type of team the Yankees are within the constraints of the league's salary rule (which obviously does limit them). I never said the Knicks were doing as well as the Yankees or had as many titles or anything like that. Any comparison of the two teams on that level is just a nonsensical figment of your imagination Fish.



[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08-31-2005 11:02 AM]
fishmike
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8/31/2005  11:15 AM
I said the Knicks are building to become the type of team the Yankees are within the constraints of the league's salary rule
well then we can just stick with what an equally ludicrous statement that is. The Yankees FIRST built that team around a core of FRANCHISE all star caliber YOUNG players in guys like Bernie, Mariano, Jeter, Posada, Pettitte and then used trades to add similar guys in and Oneil, Tino. When the Yanks won a title in 96 they did not have a monster payroll, it became a monster payroll when George committed them to maintaining that level of pay, and a large bulk of their payroll has been spent on resigning their own guys.

Again... dumb example. If there is an NBA that's similar to the Yanks it would be Dallas. They had Dirk/Finely and Nash in place who they drafted and developed (Fin came from Pho after year 2). Once they had that established core they were willing to add big money in guys like Dampier, Jamison, Walker, Van Ex, ect to get to the next level, which incidentally hasnt worked.

Knicks are nothing like those 2. Figment your ass SGR
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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