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djsunyc
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8/2/2005  11:33 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

You're not paying attention...again.

yeah guys...pay attention. we should trade crawford
AUTOADVERT
Killa4luv
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8/2/2005  11:35 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

13 and 10 is All-Star numbers, no matter how you look at it.
Not for a PF they're not and J. O'neal was not an all-star that year, so, um, I guess it kind of does matter how you look at it.
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  11:37 AM
No...but that is a real option. Don't act like it's not.

I'm all for waiting to see who buys into Larry's defensive system. But let's be frank. Larry won't be making Crawford and Marbury "good" defenders. He'll force them to buy into the team defense concept or they're not playing.

And you guys were right about the Pacer situation. But the difference is that Donnie always had a direction he was headed. Isiah hasn't seemed to have a clear-cut path to success.

And RV - You are so crooked dude. Mo Taylor still undecided about? You must be related to Layden in some way. How can you not be decide about a player that's been in the league since 1997?

Oh wait, I forgot. "POTENTIAL".
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/2/2005  11:38 AM
Dude, Larry Brown is the best defensive coach in the NBA. How can you say defense can't be "taught" when EVERY SINGLE TEAM he has taken over has moved up 7 slots in the league's defensive standings? Most teams move up more like 10 or 11 slots? Sounds like someone is teaching players how to play defense? No?

You're overlooking a big aspect of the game: teaching and player development. Larry Brown and Isiah are masters at this. JO wasn't a superstar in Portland who just couldn't crack the rotation. LOL. He was a scared kid who didn't know how to play. Zeke and Aguirre taught him to play and made him what he is. Craw's defensive flaws have nothing to do with skill and everything to do with knowledge/experience, he's been playing organized bball for like 6 years total. Larry will teach him.

But if you want to sit around thinking that everyone in the league knew JO was a superstar in the making and Portland only traded him because they're idiots, go right ahead.
¿ △ ?
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  11:39 AM
TEAM defense buddy. You said it yourself. Team defense is what he teaches...along with the luxury of some defensive stoppers (which we just don't have). That's a problem.



Btw, RV -

FUCK THE FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH. YOU'VE SHOWN US THERE'S SOMETHING BETTER OUT THERE -

The Fountain of Potential...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Killa4luv
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8/2/2005  11:42 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

...in order to have good team defense, you have to have ALL player buying into that...which just isn't happening....
Larry Brown has not coached a single game yet and Ms. Cleo-uh, I mean Ms. Dido-uh I mean Nostrabobus already knows whats gonna happen. You should use that skill for something useful, like playing the lottery.
...The David Wesleys, Matt Harprings, and Eric Snows of the NBA. Do you catch my drift?
David Wesley is a defensive liability who Allan Houston used to light up regularly. He's a 6-2 sg, he is not a defensive stopper. As for the other two guys, I don't even know what to tell you except hell f.ucking no!!! Since when did young and athletic mean old and declining?
fishmike
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8/2/2005  11:44 AM
It's true. When evaluating a GM, you have to look at every move he's made. But I'm not evaluating Donnie Walsh. I'm evaluating 2 moves in particular, and how they made the Pacers what they are today. (It's too bad they had to give up on Brad).
And what you continue to fail to realize is Bender and Croshere were just as big a reason as the Pacers are what they are today.
Obiously Artest and JO are the cornerstones, but those moves are only made because Walsh is willing to take risks, the same risks that yielded Croshere and Bender. Every one of those moves represent the same line of thinking.

Adding Bynum and Kwame is following that blue print. Dont tell me JO never got a chance. I followed the NBA then just like I do now. I think you were about 12 years old. He wasnt good enough to crack the rotation. He did have a couple good games and moments but that was it. Zach Randolph was "stuck" behind the same Sheed Wallace, but he fought his way into the rotation.

I'm playing very close attention, you just not making sense.

You cant look at any GM's best moves, ignore his worst and say Isiah needs to be more like that guy. Its not fair, and it doesnt make sense.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  11:52 AM
Ask any NBA expert - JO never got a chance. He averaged what - less than 3 MPG in 3 years with Portland. How can you say he didn't fight his way there? You have proof of that? He was playing behind Brian Grant, Sheed, and others.

You guys are so enamored with this potential bullcrap. I HATE that word. I know certain players make drastic improvements from when they're rookies, but this is just ridiculous. Some of you claiming Timmy will turn it around, and that Crawford and Marbury will be good defenders.

Any of you remember Larry Bird? Well guess what, he was a defensive liability 1-on-1 every time. But he was one of the best and smartest team defenders of all time. Larry (Brown) can hopefully get Craw and Steph to buy into the whole team defense concept, but it only masks their individual weakness. I could care less about that either way - but stop dreaming that they'll be good defenders. It makes you look foolish.

And you know what EVERY team defense needs - atleast 1 good defender. Meaning a defensive stopper. The Celtics had DJ. Who do we have???.........exactly.

Jerome James is the poorest of the poor man's Robert Parish. But other than that, we have absolutely nothing in the way of a sold defender, and coaches can't manifest that in any player. Either a player is or isn't a good defender.


UNBELIEVABLE.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08/02/2005 11:53:23]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
fishmike
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8/2/2005  12:00 PM
your pretty hypocrital. What was the JO trade based on for Indy? Was it JO's great production in his 4 years or was it POTENTIAL????? Was it brilliant or wasnt it?

There is another reason we are "enamored" with potential. Its the only shot we have at getting a star. In case you didnt notice we dont have the trade assets or cap space to add a Shaq or sign a Nash.

So our options are these:
draft players and hope they are studs (based on potential)
trade for players that clearly have some upside but risk taking a step back (like Walsh did with JO on potential)
sign guys that you KNOW what your going to get, even if they have short shelf life, bad knees and are retreads like Harpring, Snow or Wesley. Thats what Layden did... get "good" players all of which were past their prime or were only role players on good teams.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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8/2/2005  12:03 PM
3 minutes? No. First of all, it was 4 seasons and he got more than 10 minutes per game in 3 of those seasons. He had chances. He got almost as many minutes as Ariza.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/statistics?statsId=3120

As for your team defense vs. individual defense: I'll take team defense every single time. Pat Ewing wasn't the best one on one defender either, but he was a heck of a team defender. If these Knicks play team defense, Craw and Marbs included, then I'm not going to worry at all if Craw gets beat in the post once in a while. Team defense matters a lot more. I'm not really sure I understand your argument: you admit Brown is excellent at improving team defense, admit that Bird was a so so one-on-one defender but that the three time champ Celts had a pretty good team defense....I mean, what are you trying to say?

Also, you're praising Donnie Walsh for seeing Jermaine O'neal's potential and chastising people here for being interested in potential. You aren't making sense.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 08/02/2005 12:04:01]
¿ △ ?
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  12:03 PM
I think the difference b/w me and you comes down to this:


I WANT PLAYOFF WINS NOW.

YOU WANT PLAYOFF WINS FOR THE FUTURE...



Can't go wrong either way, but I want the most out of Larry while he's here...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
crzymdups
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8/2/2005  12:06 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

I think the difference b/w me and you comes down to this:


I WANT PLAYOFF WINS NOW.

YOU WANT PLAYOFF WINS FOR THE FUTURE...

Can't go wrong either way, but I want the most out of Larry while he's here...

If you want playoff wins now, why do you like that JOneal trade so much? LOL.

¿ △ ?
Pharzeone
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8/2/2005  12:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:

thats the whole point... you have too look at it all. What makes Walsh a great GM is he sticks to a philosophy and does his due dilligence. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesnt. Did Donnie not have enough coffe the day he pulled the trigger on Bender and Croshere? No, the same guy that made the great JO/Artest made the Bender/Croshere moves. They were all good moves at the time. Some worked out great others didnt... catching on yet?

Also...

please explain; how is going from the finals to a first round exit not taking a step back?
Not to take anything away from Walsh but both him and O'Neal said Isiah had more to do with the Pacers obtaining him. That's why O'Neal was hurt deeply when Bird fired IT.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  12:09 PM
I know 80's Celtics more than most people.


They had INCREDIBLE team defense. But guess what, they could also rely on a few guys to get defensive stops when it mattered. We don't have that.


As for JO - I'm quickly getting tired of this. Here's my point - JO had less opportunities to prove himself than Kwame did. Not only that, but who was Kwame playing behind? And compare that to who JO was playing behind.... OK. Now, how old was JO when the Pacers brought him in? Something like 21-22 right. Did JO ever have an attitude problem, miss practices, have a poor work ethic? OK.

Now, I can't predict how Kwame will do in LA. But we'll know real soon. If he averages 13 and 10 then I guess we'll know we have the next JO on our hands. If not, everything I've been saying this year will have been dead on. It's not just "potential." Something has to be there from the very beginning, even if people don't see it until 4 years later. In JO's case - his work ethic, something Kwame def. doesn't have.

DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  12:10 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by bobs3304:

I think the difference b/w me and you comes down to this:


I WANT PLAYOFF WINS NOW.

YOU WANT PLAYOFF WINS FOR THE FUTURE...

Can't go wrong either way, but I want the most out of Larry while he's here...

If you want playoff wins now, why do you like that JOneal trade so much? LOL.


Again...how did the single acquisition of JO effect their playoff chances. Did he single-handedly cause their playoff slide? In fact, if anything, I'd rather have JO's 5th year 13 and 10 than whatever Dale Davis was producing at that time.

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08/02/2005 12:11:53]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rvhoss
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8/2/2005  12:11 PM
new sig.
all kool aid all the time.
fishmike
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8/2/2005  12:12 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

I think the difference b/w me and you comes down to this:
I WANT PLAYOFF WINS NOW.

YOU WANT PLAYOFF WINS FOR THE FUTURE...
and there you have bobs.

Your a young guy. You want your BB team not to suck. Totally understandable. Ive only been a hardcore Knick fan for 15 years or so. Ive seen some damn good teams and tons of great playoff wins, but I havent seen a championship. THATS what we are talking about here. We have all seen playoff games and playoff wins. What we are talking about is puting the pieces together that will equall a sustained run at a championship. To do that you need to have a couple of stars or a serious core of talent to build around.

YES- Harpring, Snow, Marbury, KT and Ratliff coached by Larry B would be a playoff team for a couple years and probably fight and claw to some wins and round 2. But that team is NEVER winning a title and in 3-4 years when they are breaking down and Larry B is being wooed by the Brooklyn Nets what were we left with? Great memories of a first round win against Wash only to be crushed by Wade and Shaq?

I can see why that would be better than watching guys with "potential" but most of us have seen that before, and we want more.

So you bring in a mass of guys 25 and under, that all still have some upside or the P word.
Q, Craw, Ariza, Frye, Nate, Lee, Sweetney, Butler... maybe none ever become dominant players, but the more you bring in the better chance of having an Artest and Oneil emerge from the group. You dont have to like it but you cant say it doesnt make sense.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bobs3304
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8/2/2005  12:16 PM
I never said it didn't make sense, but I just don't like it.


Especially with Isiah overpaying for everyone, how can you even expect us to be able to use Crawford and acquisitions like that to bring in a "potential" JO or Artest?

I understand about the whole championship feeling, but again, it just doesn't make sense to me to be SOO over the cap, with contracts lasting the next 2-3 years holding you up, and STILL add all this young talent. How many roster spots do you expect to have - 30?

Only Timmy and Penny will be gone by next year. Everyone else will still be here. Forget cap flexability - we don't even have roster flexability...that's NOT how you build championship teams.

So in my mind, forgoing talent for instant substance is what I'm looking at. It's not ideal, it's not perfect, but it gets the job done.

I do NOT wanna just waste Brown's tenure here...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 08/02/2005 12:18:45]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
rvhoss
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8/2/2005  12:18 PM
amen. And, no joke...IMHFO...
that squad is ready to contend with the nets and philly for the division title.

heaven forbid the younger veterans (Q, Craw, Sweets) see the light sooner than we expect and the rooks contribute just enough to win games and grasp the game.

That leaves Marbs, TT and the other vets to just give it their all for a full season and take what they learned to the tourney and see where the chips fall.

I mean, everyone knew Miami v. Detroit last year, and it's looking that way this coming year...but after that, it's up for grabs.

Posted by fishmike:

So you bring in a mass of guys 25 and under, that all still have some upside or the P word.
Q, Craw, Ariza, Frye, Nate, Lee, Sweetney, Butler... maybe none ever become dominant players, but the more you bring in the better chance of having an Artest and Oneil emerge from the group. You dont have to like it but you cant say it doesnt make sense.
all kool aid all the time.
Killa4luv
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8/2/2005  12:18 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

I know 80's Celtics more than most people.

Didn't you just admit to being 19 years old?
Either
A) You were the worlds most astute 3 year old, watching and analyzing celtic games in 89.
B) You're a f.ucking liar!



[Edited by - killa4luv on 08/02/2005 12:19:20]
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