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bobs3304
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What will Marbury's fate be? Consider ALL options before voting...
Keep Marbury ONLY IF LARRY BROWN IS OUR HEAD COACH
Keep Marbury NO MATTER WHAT
Trade Marbury IF LARRY ISN'T OUR NEXT COACH
Trade Marbury NO MATTER WHAT
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nyk4ever
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7/12/2005  10:46 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:


exactly how I feel especially now that we have Nate and need to get him big minutes. It is virtually impossible to keep Marbury and win at the same time because his contract doesn't allow us to get him that bigman and most likely other teams will have more to offer for a guy like Brand than TT & crawford. Randolph is more of a possibility but I'm not sure you can win it all with him

I don't understand how Stephons contract hinders us from using TT and Pennys expiring contracts which are each in the 13 and 14 million repsectively. The trading deadline is the time when Isiah can get that guy and it has nothing to do with Stephs contract, Dolan doesnt care about paying the luxury tax either, we know that becuase we've been in salary hell for years and he's never said a word. Combine our expiring contracts, role players and young players and you can turn that into a good big man. Tim Duncan is not the only player in this league that wins, put a good scoring big man with Steph and you got a contender.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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bobs3304
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7/12/2005  10:47 PM
The point is that Steph NEEDS a legit Big to win.

Anything else and he should be dealt...


B/c the chances of landing that legit big are slim to none, I expect him to be dealt sooner rather than later.

But you never know, Isiah might surprise us all...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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7/12/2005  10:48 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I don't understand how Stephons contract hinders us from using TT and Pennys expiring contracts which are each in the 13 and 14 million repsectively. The trading deadline is the time when Isiah can get that guy and it has nothing to do with Stephs contract, Dolan doesnt care about paying the luxury tax either, we know that becuase we've been in salary hell for years and he's never said a word. Combine our expiring contracts, role players and young players and you can turn that into a good big man. Tim Duncan is not the only player in this league that wins, put a good scoring big man with Steph and you got a contender.

Good points, Good post.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
nyk4ever
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7/12/2005  10:52 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

The point is that Steph NEEDS a legit Big to win.

Anything else and he should be dealt...


B/c the chances of landing that legit big are slim to none, I expect him to be dealt sooner rather than later.

But you never know, Isiah might surprise us all...

I agree with that as well Bob, but I just see how the NBA works lately and the teams that get the kind of guy that we are looking for are the teams with expiring contracts and good young and role players. The Knicks have all 3 of the ingredients that are used as bait at the trade deadline. If the Knicks can't use them and get that big then I agree with you and Guns, then maybe at the deadline we should rethink our roster makeup...unless the Knicks flat out suck and have the worst record in the league and are looking at one of the top2 spots in the lottery, but with this roster I really don't see that happening.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:53:18]

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:54:13]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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7/12/2005  10:54 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


exactly how I feel especially now that we have Nate and need to get him big minutes. It is virtually impossible to keep Marbury and win at the same time because his contract doesn't allow us to get him that bigman and most likely other teams will have more to offer for a guy like Brand than TT & crawford. Randolph is more of a possibility but I'm not sure you can win it all with him

I don't understand how Stephons contract hinders us from using TT and Pennys expiring contracts which are each in the 13 and 14 million repsectively. The trading deadline is the time when Isiah can get that guy and it has nothing to do with Stephs contract, Dolan doesnt care about paying the luxury tax either, we know that becuase we've been in salary hell for years and he's never said a word. Combine our expiring contracts, role players and young players and you can turn that into a good big man. Tim Duncan is not the only player in this league that wins, put a good scoring big man with Steph and you got a contender.

teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman
nyk4ever
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7/12/2005  10:56 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:


teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman

Rasheed Wallace won a championship and was the big man that took them to the promised land. A big man does not need to be a franchise big man he needs to be a good player that is a PIECE to the puzzle. Rasheed Wallace was a piece to the puzzle and they've been to 2 finals with him. Like it or not, Duncan wasn't winning anything without Ginobili this year and Shaq wasn't winning anything without Wade. Marbury can definately be that second player on a contending team you just have to acquire that guy.

There are other methods then drafting them. Shaq won 3 titles in LA and they didnt draft him. The Detroit Pistons have also shown the rest of the league that you can acquire the right pieces by trading. Not everthing is the draft, it takes a good GM who can make the right trades and I am extremely confident that Isiah can put that big man next to Steph and have them contend.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:56:24]

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:59:12]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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7/12/2005  11:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

[quote]Posted by gunsnewing:


teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman

Rasheed Wallace won a championship and was the big man that took them to the promised land. A big man does not need to be a franchise big man he needs to be a good player that is a PIECE to the puzzle. Rasheed Wallace was a piece to the puzzle and they've been to 2 finals with him. Like it or not, Duncan wasn't winning anything without Ginobili this year and Shaq wasn't winning anything without Wade. Marbury can definately be that second player on a contending team you just have to acquire that guy.

There are other methods then drafting them. Shaq won 3 titles in LA and they didnt draft him. The Detroit Pistons have also shown the rest of the league that you can acquire the right pieces by trading. Not everthing is the draft, it takes a good GM who can make the right trades and I am extremely confident that Isiah can put that big man next to Steph and have them contend.


I agree with that. If you have Larry Brown and not Herb
bobs3304
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7/12/2005  11:00 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman

Rasheed Wallace won a championship and was the big man that took them to the promised land. A big man does not need to be a franchise big man he needs to be a good player that is a PIECE to the puzzle. Rasheed Wallace was a piece to the puzzle and they've been to 2 finals with him.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:56:24]

I completely disagree with that viewpoint. Rasheed Wallace IS a franchise Big, but he's unselfish enough to blend in on a team that has plenty of talented, hard-working players.

To say that Sheed isn't one of the best bigs in the biz is blasphemy.


Edit: I'm recanting. I think Sheed is to PF's what Marbury is to PG's...

[Edited by - bobs3304 on 07/12/2005 23:02:10]
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
nyk4ever
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7/12/2005  11:03 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman

Rasheed Wallace won a championship and was the big man that took them to the promised land. A big man does not need to be a franchise big man he needs to be a good player that is a PIECE to the puzzle. Rasheed Wallace was a piece to the puzzle and they've been to 2 finals with him.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:56:24]

I completely disagree with that viewpoint. Rasheed Wallace IS a franchise Big, but he's unselfish enough to blend in on a team that has plenty of talented, hard-working players.

To say that Sheed isn't one of the best bigs in the biz is blasphemy.

I'm sorry Bob but Sheed isn't a guy that you can totally build around like a Tim Duncan. Sheed is a Very Good player but he's a step below that Franchise good level. I never saw him play at a franchise level on any other team that he's been on either. Hes an excellent player who also is a great team player but lets see what he does when Larry Brown isnt the coach and the UNC connection is gone. I want to see how much the T.E.A.M aspect is still there.

Edited beause I just saw the edit to your post, I think we both agree now.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 23:03:45]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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7/12/2005  11:03 PM
Posted by bobs3304:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by gunsnewing:


teams don't give up on their franchise bigs for expiring contracts. Marbury hinders us from winning the lottery and landing the next big thing or acquiring a top free agent bigman

Rasheed Wallace won a championship and was the big man that took them to the promised land. A big man does not need to be a franchise big man he needs to be a good player that is a PIECE to the puzzle. Rasheed Wallace was a piece to the puzzle and they've been to 2 finals with him.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:56:24]

I completely disagree with that viewpoint. Rasheed Wallace IS a franchise Big, but he's unselfish enough to blend in on a team that has plenty of talented, hard-working players.

To say that Sheed isn't one of the best bigs in the biz is blasphemy.

I don't know. He didn't look that good chucking 3's against the Spurs and likely wouldn't have gotten pass the Heat if Wade was healthy. When they won the championship they beat a Laker team that was in shambles and with an old PG who couldn't guard a tree in Payton. Billups abused him and went on to win mvp
Panos
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7/13/2005  8:27 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Panos:

This logic is absurd. Yes, this is a business and Dolan wants to
make money. Part of making money is lowering your expenses.
There are two sides to the coin. So while Indiana, Miami, Chicago,
Detriot (last year's CHAMPS!), New Jersey, Seattle, Houston, Sacramento, Washington, Boston, Denver, Pheonix
and SAN ANTONIO (the CHAMPS!!!)
made the playoffs all paying $45M-65M, the Knicks paid $102M
which comes to like $160M after luxury taxes!!!

Now you tell me what business man would not want to cut into
that cost structure. Give me a break.
NOW, add to that the benefit of actually being able to sign
Free Agents, I think the choice is clear for any business man.

(Caveat: this numbers may not be complete accurate, I cannot
vouch for the web site I got them from, but I think the illustrate
the point)

2004-05 Team Payrolls
Team Payroll
1. New York Knicks $102,442,544
2. Dallas Mavericks $91,553,496
3. Portland Trailblazers $83,671,312
4. Philadelphia 76ers $71,951,888
5. Minnesota Timberwolves $70,060,920
6. Memphis Grizzlies $67,010,824
7. Orlando Magic $66,445,252
8. Indiana Pacers $65,792,068
9. Los Angeles Lakers $65,059,100
10. Boston Celtics $64,577,356
11. Sacramento Kings $61,807,688
12. Toronto Raptors $61,703,772
13. Houston Rockets $60,222,300
14. Miami Heat $58,949,072
15. Chicago Bulls $57,276,136
16. Milwaukee Bucks $57,137,128
17. New Orleans Hornets $56,572,880
18. Golden State Warriors $54,943,724
19. New Jersey Nets $54,729,028
20. Detroit Pistons $54,574,980
21. Seattle Sonics $53,821,300
22. Washington Wizards $49,547,056
23. Cleveland Cavaliers $49,175,272
24. San Antonio Spurs $47,149,172
25. Los Angeles Clippers $45,170,768
26. Denver Nuggets $45,621,812
27. Phoenix Suns $44,256,720
28. Utah Jazz $43,160,808
29. Atlanta Hawks $40,684,848
30. Charlotte Bobcats $23,380,124
And the logic that IS NOT absurd is the fact that the Knicks are still one of the most profitable teams in the NBA year in and year out becuase.....THEY SELL TICKETS!!! you can't sell tickets with a 20 win team. Jimmy Dolan makes money off this team with a 102 million dollar payroll, its been noted and its been on this board before in various thread. I remember reading he made an absurd amount of money last year off the Knicks and Rangers(Madison Square Garden.) He doesn't care what the team does as long as the butts are in the seats.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07/12/2005 22:01:07]

Hate to beat a dead horse, but I don't care if the Knicks ARE
one of the most profitable franchises (which I'm not really sure
that they are, please post some numbers). Point is they could
be MORE profitable if they paid $100M less in salary and luxury
tax every year(that is a TON OF MONEY, even for Dolan,
he's not Bill Gates) AND if they made the playoffs like
those 12 teams I listed.

[Edited by - panos on 07/13/2005 08:28:30]
Panos
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7/13/2005  8:33 AM
BTW, great points by both gunsewing and nyk4ever.
Personally, I'm with guns. You can't operate like
the knicks are operating. You have to have flexibility.
Not only do they not have flexibility, they won't have
it for years to come. That is a big handicap. They
can't say we'll sit tight this year or trade XYZ's contract,
and next year make a move on the FA market. They have
dump MANY contracts just to get flexibility 3 years from now!
diderotn
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7/13/2005  8:46 AM
some fans on this board just don't know what they want. First thing first, get rid of Houston's contract, then Penny and TT, after that, stand pat and see what FA will be willing to come to N.Y. Those 3 have not contributed at all last season, so they should be the first to go.
The true Knickabocker..........
Panos
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7/13/2005  8:54 AM
Posted by diderotn:

some fans on this board just don't know what they want. First thing first, get rid of Houston's contract, then Penny and TT, after that, stand pat and see what FA will be willing to come to N.Y. Those 3 have not contributed at all last season, so they should be the first to go.

You still can't sign a free agent after that.
Subtract those 3 and you still have more than $68M on the books
which is still more than the cap. AND FOR WHAT, I ask?
A bunch of second rate players + Marbury!
MoT alone will make $10M alone next year! Jesus Christ!
What a stupid trade that was.
Panos
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7/13/2005  8:57 AM
Just voted, Trade Marbury.
Not cuz I don't like him, he's a great talent.
But if we can trade him for a good big, or
a shorter contract, I'd do it. He will NOT
lead us to the promise land.
diderotn
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7/13/2005  9:03 AM

After trading those 3, Mo T. and Rose can be moved during the season. In fact, that is exactly what will happen. Before you know, we will be under the cap...Mo T and Rose will earn about 20 millions next year...

Posted by Panos:
Posted by diderotn:

some fans on this board just don't know what they want. First thing first, get rid of Houston's contract, then Penny and TT, after that, stand pat and see what FA will be willing to come to N.Y. Those 3 have not contributed at all last season, so they should be the first to go.

You still can't sign a free agent after that.
Subtract those 3 and you still have more than $68M on the books
which is still more than the cap. AND FOR WHAT, I ask?
A bunch of second rate players + Marbury!
MoT alone will make $10M alone next year! Jesus Christ!
What a stupid trade that was.
The true Knickabocker..........
Redsoxrule
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7/13/2005  9:04 AM
I am in the trade Marbury now camp for twelve reasons.
But I ain't listing them because you know them all already.
I just would never have the guy on my team.
We will NEVER win with Marbury as our cameo guy.
Panos
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7/13/2005  9:07 AM
Posted by diderotn:

After trading those 3, Mo T. and Rose can be moved during the season. In fact, that is exactly what will happen. Before you know, we will be under the cap...Mo T and Rose will earn about 20 millions next year...


Give me one good trade scenario for MoT where we don't take
on crap that is just as bad? We are not getting rid of that
salary that easily. If it's him or someone else, we'll be
stuck with $10M on the books.
bobs3304
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7/13/2005  9:26 AM
By the time the Pistons make their decision is when you'll know mine.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Nalod
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7/13/2005  11:00 AM
There is no corelation between winning and having a high salary base.

If we can lower our payroll, it lowers the need to fill seats to creat revenue, which allows for us to truely rebuild.

Using More expiring contracts to get players that other teams want to dump is not necessary anymore. Whom do you get? Not blue chippers!

The question is do we want to be competitive and deep in the playoffs to produce profits, or be legit contenders. to be the latter, we need to do what it takes ot pare down our payroll, develope youth, get higher draft picks, and be able to pounce on a lebron if such availablilty exists.

Need three allstars and 6 role players to succeed.
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