fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

fishmike wrote:

DLeethal wrote:The starting lineup likely doesn’t reach its potential with Josh in it IMO, as long as teams can get away not guarding him.

how's that going so far?

Knicks have been winning games in unconventional ways and displaying insane amounts of grit and clutch play. But the offense has been a mess for the vast majority of the playoffs. So if a team is trying to muck up the offense by not guarding Hart, it's working, and Knicks have been able to overcome it in other ways to their credit.

idk man... you say the car isnt working. Im puzzled because it's getting you to work every day and your never late.

I just dont see this scheming for Hart as "working."

Maybe a couple possessions? We continually adjust and win games. His overall numbers are good and it has not been impactful late in games.

If anything it prolly get Josh fired up

You are oversimplifying it with the car analogy. You can still drive to work with a check engine light on. When teams put a small on Towns and a big on Hart it is done to hinder the Knicks offense. There are many other facets to every game and ancillary responses to that strategy. But in terms of hindering the Knicks offense, it works. Knicks are a great team and can win games other ways which they've done. But it hasn't been because of the starting lineup, which has been objectively and statistically a negative throughout the playoffs. But if you want to make the case that all of the ancillary benefits have outweighed the negatives because we are currently in the ECF that is a reasonable argument because at the end of the day, we are indeed in the ECF. But Knicks starters have been a net negative, they've fallen into huge deficits in many of their wins, they are been an abysmal 1st and 3rd quarter team (starters), and much of this can fall directly on teams strategy of not guarding Josh and letting their big roam, while guarding KAT with a small. It should not be whitewashed away because we are winning games anyway. Knicks shouldn't have to come back from down 15-20 points in the second half to win the majority of their games.

Put Turner on Hart and let Turner be a help defender/shotblocker by playing off Hart. However this means Haliburton is on Mikal and Mikal needs to cook

Or hide Haliburton on Hart - means Halbiburton is the help defender (not really a big deal) and Hart needs to be Haliburton one on one (I think he can).

VDesai wrote:Josh Hart can really do two things to combat it - hit Threes obviously - best done by finding a way to relocate tot he corner. However he is hitting at a good clip.

In game 6 he was a huge playmaker - 11 assists, pressured the defense.

And then beyond that get out in transition where they can't set their defense up and ignore you.

First half of the year he was doing all 3 things at a very high rate. Got injured and some natural decline, but he is perfectly capable of doing the above 3 things.

There is probably a huge correlation to early season Josh who was shooting like 40% from 3 for a good chunk of the early season and this teams offense which was historically good for a good chunk of the early season as well. Seems once teams started to place non bigs on Towns and Josh somehow decided to be hesitant from 3 is when the offense sputtered. So yes, Josh turning into a confident volume 3 guy and shooting 35% would be a huge boon for everything.

DLeethal wrote:Thibideau clearly believes that Josh Hart is worth the downside to the Knicks offense and that he will help you win in other ways and so far he's been right. I personally think there is a way to get the Josh Hart experience while still maximizing the Knicks starting lineup, and I hope we find a way to do that next year, but it's not something we are going to experiment with this year either way.

I just talked about this and I think he actually helps the offense. To me Thibs never had a real offensive identity and letting hart set picks gives us an offensive advantage. Hart forces these help defenders or sometimes bigs with terrible lateral quickness to switch and guard JB. Or double JB and allows hart to attack the offense similar to a PG in open space. Thibs trust hart to make the right decision. Just have to live with his jump passes. But hart creates action in half court settings.

We already know what he does in full court. He’s the engine for this offense. Mikal is another option, especially when hart or JB sits.

blkexec wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Easily one of the best non-rookie contracts in the league. Deuce is awesome. He needs to keep doing what he did in round 2. I’m hoping he’s a career-Knick. The Deuce chants are amazing.

I love the chants too, but as a shooter myself, I enjoy the quiet before the shot. Just like free throws they get quiet. With deuce MSG and even on the road, they (deuce fans) are so excited they yell before deuce starts his gather.

So many key players on this team from OG, Mikal, Josh and Mitch. But outside of towns and JB, I still think Deuce is more critical, because he’s the only true defensive PG in the rotation. The other player doesn’t even get PT (delon wright).

When deuce is on, his 2 way abilities is like a fire starter or steroid injection on O or D. Question is, how much will it take to sign him again to a long term contract? I’m sure he wants to stay here as bad as we want to keep him.

Would love to see Wright paired with Deuce off the bench. Shut down defense with both able to switch and contribute to the offense.

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Easily one of the best non-rookie contracts in the league. Deuce is awesome. He needs to keep doing what he did in round 2. I’m hoping he’s a career-Knick. The Deuce chants are amazing.

I love the chants too, but as a shooter myself, I enjoy the quiet before the shot. Just like free throws they get quiet. With deuce MSG and even on the road, they (deuce fans) are so excited they yell before deuce starts his gather.

So many key players on this team from OG, Mikal, Josh and Mitch. But outside of towns and JB, I still think Deuce is more critical, because he’s the only true defensive PG in the rotation. The other player doesn’t even get PT (delon wright).

When deuce is on, his 2 way abilities is like a fire starter or steroid injection on O or D. Question is, how much will it take to sign him again to a long term contract? I’m sure he wants to stay here as bad as we want to keep him.

Would love to see Wright paired with Deuce off the bench. Shut down defense with both able to switch and contribute to the offense.

I rather see wright than cam payne
But what do I know. Thibs took this team to the ECF. So I gotta put some respect on his rotation decisions.

But I agree with you.

I think this is Thib's mentality with the Cam Payne and even Josh Hart type dudes. Derrick Rose was in the same territory.

If you have demonstrated that you give all out effort consistently, not only in a particular game but over the course of games and season, you will always get the benefit of the doubt for playing time unless you **** up egregiously and are literally just having one of those game. He combines that decision process with output performance too, it's just not effort, and you need to be having some positive play in some area on the court.

During the regular season, both Cam and Josh check those boxes for Thibs. Thibs does favor consistency for his players within particular roles; this is a choice over mixing and matching lineups and just throwing guys out there in odd minutes and rotations mixes. Pluses and minuses for this way of thinking just as with others that may favor a completely different approach.

The playoffs are a different territory. Josh will get most all the rope he needs because of the effort and stat intangibles he brings to the game, even though his shooting and spacing are not close to ideal with the starting unit. The Knicks also do not have a good enough replacement player so that comes into play here. The Deuce to starting lineup is fraught with downsides that most who want to maximize the starting lineup spacing do not bring up. Stats do have a way of lying even though the offensive efficiency numbers REALLY favor Deuce with starters but they are on a different minutes and player match up scale (all my guess).

Thibs is as desperate to win just as with any of us. He has the added responsibility of motivating guys to perform at the highest level on a day in and day out basis, which we do not. Thibs also has the responsibility of growing the team as a unit over the course of the season so that it maximizes for the playoffs, one that fans do not. Thibs GAINS a ton of loyalty by sticking with players and that translates into effort by his players. In example, Thibs over the years has shown an INCREDIBLE amount of loyalty to Mitch. Patience with injury, patience with FT shooting, patience with Mitch's cluster**** understanding of what he needs to do on offense, patience with starting him over iHart when he was not injured. We can see how Big Mitch rotates like a madman after 5 guys against Boston in one of the most heroic efforts ever. This is what Thibs is buying with his guys and it translated. Josh is the embodiment of that translation. Triple doubles all over the place even though his shooting sucks. Blood going everywhere. 40+ minutes of HARD effort every game during the season.

Cam Payne has sucked. Cam Payne turned around a Detroit game. Cam Payne has a shorter leash cause he keeps heat checking himself unnecessarily. If he stuck to defense and facilitating and shooting at the appropriate time on the shot clock when heat checks just look like getting the ball up to the rim for Mitch to rebound, Thibs would probably play him more. Cam Payne has come to the Knicks on a vet min contract and given very good backup production until the playoffs, Thibs respects that.

Wright will not get burn unless it's a coach-desperate situation.

Knixkik wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Easily one of the best non-rookie contracts in the league. Deuce is awesome. He needs to keep doing what he did in round 2. I’m hoping he’s a career-Knick. The Deuce chants are amazing.

I love the chants too, but as a shooter myself, I enjoy the quiet before the shot. Just like free throws they get quiet. With deuce MSG and even on the road, they (deuce fans) are so excited they yell before deuce starts his gather.

So many key players on this team from OG, Mikal, Josh and Mitch. But outside of towns and JB, I still think Deuce is more critical, because he’s the only true defensive PG in the rotation. The other player doesn’t even get PT (delon wright).

When deuce is on, his 2 way abilities is like a fire starter or steroid injection on O or D. Question is, how much will it take to sign him again to a long term contract? I’m sure he wants to stay here as bad as we want to keep him.

I was a college shooter and preferred noise. It’s funny it comes down to preference. I wonder what Deuce prefers.

"What's my name!? What's my name!!!! Serenade me while I shoot!!!!"

blkexec wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Easily one of the best non-rookie contracts in the league. Deuce is awesome. He needs to keep doing what he did in round 2. I’m hoping he’s a career-Knick. The Deuce chants are amazing.

I love the chants too, but as a shooter myself, I enjoy the quiet before the shot. Just like free throws they get quiet. With deuce MSG and even on the road, they (deuce fans) are so excited they yell before deuce starts his gather.

So many key players on this team from OG, Mikal, Josh and Mitch. But outside of towns and JB, I still think Deuce is more critical, because he’s the only true defensive PG in the rotation. The other player doesn’t even get PT (delon wright).

When deuce is on, his 2 way abilities is like a fire starter or steroid injection on O or D. Question is, how much will it take to sign him again to a long term contract? I’m sure he wants to stay here as bad as we want to keep him.

👀