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Carmelo Anthony's MVP Season and the New York Knicks
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cooch2584
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12/7/2012  2:00 PM
fishmike wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:mda and linsanity riders dont ever let go either.
if your having problems letting go try watching the Knicks. Great win last night. Sometimes it just takes time mate.

Fish I was talking about nalod and riding mdas and lins jock.I watched the game last nite 8 ft froma 50 inch tv,is that fan enuff?

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cooch2584
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12/7/2012  2:06 PM
Never liked mdas style and knew lin was a flash in the pan.
dk7th
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12/7/2012  2:08 PM
TeamBall wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
dk7th wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:
dk7th wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:As I stated earlier:

Knicks not needing Carmelo to win = stronger case for MVP.

zero-sum players seldom win the mvp. if he gets to the line 11-12 times a game, maintains 57.5 or better TS, and plays defense then he will be "in the running." but he lags behind both durant and lebron, who are more important to their teams than melo is to the knicks-- last night showed how this is so.

Lagging behind Lebron and Durant for a individual award is as respectable as it gets.

And although you have personally stated your requirements for the award, none of them matter as much as the Knicks continuing to do what they've been doing.

Last night only proved that the players on this team are capable of helping Carmelo stay in the race.

well if you are going to maintain that the winningest (as opposed to best) team's best (as opposed to most valuable) player always is in the running then i suppose so. but you know that it is probably the case that the player who is most pivotal to his team's winning is the one who ends up winning this award most of the time.

on the heat that is lebron.
on the thunder that is durant.
on the knicks that is ___________.

that said, the subjective nature of the voting bloc and its process (such as it is), means anything is possible.

I do not understand. Are you saying there's someone else on the Knicks that should be in the running instead of Carmelo?

Hmm, I wonder how NBA.COM and ESPN can be so forgetful to include that other mysterious player on our team.

Yeah im not understanding this either. So that season (was it last season?) when Rose went down and the bulls team still cruised to the best record in the NBA was proof that Derrick isnt their most valuable player?

actually what i think it really means is that he did not really earn the MVP the year he got it.

look at the numbers:

19.7 shots a game which is 3-4 more shots more than a "scoring point guard" should take
usg rate/ast rate = .83:1 which is not bad for a "scoring point guard"
7.7 assists per game again not bad but 3.4 turnovers undermines this assist number
55%TS is just plain bad no way around it he needs to develop a 3-point shot
FTA 6.6/game that's not bad
sub-par defender

62 wins where the entire offense is built around him.... and in the playoffs that season he was exposed of course: his failure to react to converging doubles hurt his team.

lebron james that season:
18.8 shots per game whcih is just about right
usg/ast .93:1 very much like rose that season
7 assists per game fantastic but 3.6 turnovers don't help his own cause
59.4%TS is elite and helps his cause
FTA 8.4/game pretty darned good

58 wins with a team where he foolishly tried to kowtow to wade and they still got to the finals.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
TeamBall
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12/7/2012  2:35 PM
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:Yeah im not understanding this either. So that season (was it last season?) when Rose went down and the bulls team still cruised to the best record in the NBA was proof that Derrick isnt their most valuable player?

actually what i think it really means is that he did not really earn the MVP the year he got it.

look at the numbers:

19.7 shots a game which is 3-4 more shots more than a "scoring point guard" should take
usg rate/ast rate = .83:1 which is not bad for a "scoring point guard"
7.7 assists per game again not bad but 3.4 turnovers undermines this assist number
55%TS is just plain bad no way around it he needs to develop a 3-point shot
FTA 6.6/game that's not bad
sub-par defender

62 wins where the entire offense is built around him.... and in the playoffs that season he was exposed of course: his failure to react to converging doubles hurt his team.

lebron james that season:
18.8 shots per game whcih is just about right
usg/ast .93:1 very much like rose that season
7 assists per game fantastic but 3.6 turnovers don't help his own cause
59.4%TS is elite and helps his cause
FTA 8.4/game pretty darned good

58 wins with a team where he foolishly tried to kowtow to wade and they still got to the finals.


Damn thats some quality research you did there...But all stats aside for just a sec, theres no denying that Rose was extremely valuable to that team. I think the rest of the team was just solid in addition to Rose's individual skill. The Knicks are the same way right now.
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gunsnewing
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12/7/2012  2:57 PM
exactly forget all this mvp talk and just realize that in order to dethrone the big boys in the playoffs we are going to need both Melo and Amare
IronWillGiroud
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12/7/2012  3:02 PM
If Knicks finish First in East, Melo is MVP hand down man down it's not a contest.
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fishmike
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12/7/2012  3:05 PM
cooch2584 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
cooch2584 wrote:mda and linsanity riders dont ever let go either.
if your having problems letting go try watching the Knicks. Great win last night. Sometimes it just takes time mate.

Fish I was talking about nalod and riding mdas and lins jock.I watched the game last nite 8 ft froma 50 inch tv,is that fan enuff?

that depends. Where your pants on or off?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
cooch2584
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12/7/2012  3:09 PM
Pants on,beer in hand,other hand WOPPPPP WOPPPING
Bonn1997
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12/7/2012  5:27 PM
gunsnewing wrote:exactly forget all this mvp talk and just realize that in order to dethrone the big boys in the playoffs we are going to need both Melo and Amare

We just beat the Heat by 20 for the 2nd time in a row with Amare, and this time without Melo too. The Amare we had last year would only hurt us anyway.
gunsnewing
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12/7/2012  5:29 PM
Well we got our first playoff win in a dozen years because of Amare and without a PG
Bonn1997
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12/7/2012  5:33 PM
Eh, that's hard to say. If we had a healthy Sheed and Camby instead of Amare, I think we still would have won at least one game.
gunsnewing
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12/7/2012  5:37 PM
Knicks were 8-1 in the regular season with Amare once Woodson took over. 6-1 when they actually had a PG in Lin. Then Lin and Amare get hurt and the team is derailed heading into the playoffs as we rely on davis, bibby and TD
TeamBall
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12/7/2012  5:39 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
gunsnewing wrote:exactly forget all this mvp talk and just realize that in order to dethrone the big boys in the playoffs we are going to need both Melo and Amare

We just beat the Heat by 20 for the 2nd time in a row with Amare, and this time without Melo too. The Amare we had last year would only hurt us anyway.

And the Wizards beat the Heat without John Wall. Are they now in contention for the ECF? C'mon man we need both of them healthy and in the lineup in order to win it all.
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dk7th
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12/7/2012  6:40 PM
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:Yeah im not understanding this either. So that season (was it last season?) when Rose went down and the bulls team still cruised to the best record in the NBA was proof that Derrick isnt their most valuable player?

actually what i think it really means is that he did not really earn the MVP the year he got it.

look at the numbers:

19.7 shots a game which is 3-4 more shots more than a "scoring point guard" should take
usg rate/ast rate = .83:1 which is not bad for a "scoring point guard"
7.7 assists per game again not bad but 3.4 turnovers undermines this assist number
55%TS is just plain bad no way around it he needs to develop a 3-point shot
FTA 6.6/game that's not bad
sub-par defender

62 wins where the entire offense is built around him.... and in the playoffs that season he was exposed of course: his failure to react to converging doubles hurt his team.

lebron james that season:
18.8 shots per game whcih is just about right
usg/ast .93:1 very much like rose that season
7 assists per game fantastic but 3.6 turnovers don't help his own cause
59.4%TS is elite and helps his cause
FTA 8.4/game pretty darned good

58 wins with a team where he foolishly tried to kowtow to wade and they still got to the finals.


Damn thats some quality research you did there...But all stats aside for just a sec, theres no denying that Rose was extremely valuable to that team. I think the rest of the team was just solid in addition to Rose's individual skill. The Knicks are the same way right now.

here's where i agree:

the fact that they played well without rose is due to their roster and their approach. the same with the knicks now, although we will need to see them reach the ECF like the bulls did before comparisons have validity.

here's where i disagree:

they, like the knicks, are being identified as a defense-first team, so losing an offense-first player in rose-- or carmelo-- did/does not hurt them. if anything their success without him hurts his actual value to team success.

i will underscore that they have remarkably similar TS% and similar effectiveness at defending their respective positions, which is below par.

where carmelo has a chance to exceed rose in terms of actual value to his team will be in (1) getting to the line more than rose, (2) being more efficient than rose by getting closer to 60TS% than his career average anemic 55TS%, (3) defending at an elite level, and(4) grabbing possession-extending offensive rebounds outside of his grabbing his own missed shots at the rim.

this will make him a true positive-sum player and will lift the knicks into legitimate championship-contending status.

i actually believe he is capable but it's what is between his ears and in his belly that i will continue to question until proven wrong by his achieving the four points outlined above.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
OGkush121
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12/7/2012  7:53 PM
Why is it so hard for people to grasp the fact that he's legitimately in the MVP race. Say what you want, but right now there's no over in the league as good as him, Durant, Lebron and Kobe (who would've gotten more consideration obviously if the Lakers weren't crap).
Unless the Knicks turn it around for the worst this is where he's going to be the entire season.
And maybe, just maybe by the end of the regular season some of you will start to warm up to that idea.
newyorknewyork
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12/7/2012  11:26 PM
The argument against Carmelo was that he would always lose in the playoffs because of the way he plays basketball vs that he just needed a stronger team around him then what he has had. Haters argued that he had enough talent in the past and that he would always fail leading to first rd exits every yr with the Knicks because he would bring the team down. And that he would never improve as a player. Homers argued that he didn't have enough talent to achieve the type of goals that the haters were expecting, but if given that support he would be able to achieve those goals.

Haters were oportunistic after the last 2 playoff defeats in which both teams were depleted by injury while facing a superior team. It didn't matter that the teams were depleted because Melo brings the team down anyway and wouldn't find success reguardless. Now that the roster seems like its holding a ton of talent and its very possible the Knicks end up with a top seed with a good amount of home cooking in the playoffs and a great chance at going to the ECF. Now all of a sudden haters want to start talking about the supporting cast and how important it is. Now have become opportunistic again after this recent win with Raymond Felton playing out of his mind.

When the trade was made it was argued that its easier to find role players then it was to land a star player. But no the Knicks set the franchise back 10yrs will lose in the first rd as long as Melo is on the team while Denver will go on to form a Dynasty. Now 2-3yrs later Knicks have one of the deepest rosters in the nba along with Melo while Denver is still looking for a Melo calibre player to bring them to the next level.

But yea its all been about jock riders and homers trying to make Melo into a hero, superstar, greatest player ever.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
newyorknewyork
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12/7/2012  11:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/7/2012  11:35 PM
dk7th wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Raymond Felton played like a top 5 player in the NBA yesterday. So yes if Raymond Felton averages 27pts and 7ast a game while Novak averages 18pts a game then yes the team won't miss a beat without Carmelo Anthony.

You can't isolate any one player like that. Smith also shot 4 of 15. The team as a whole shot 45%, which is right around where you'd expect them to be. I do think Melo helps this team and they'd be worse off without him, though. If that's all you're claiming, there is no disagreement.

You need someone to be a consistent high level producer. For all the flaws in Melos game that is brought up by sabermetrics none of those flaws have stopped the Knicks from being one of the most efficient and ball secure teams in the NBA which tells me those flaws are covered and don't have the negative impact that they have been made out to have. I don't think anyone outside of Melo or Amare can be counted on as a consistent high producer and even Amare has to prove he is back at that level. Denver with all there team players are stuck in the middle because they don't have that.

if you look at what kidd is doing on the floor and statistically, he simply goes quite far to offset the flaws in melo and felton's games.

felton and melo are not efficient by any stretch (melo will not sustain the 57TS) and their ratio of usage to assist rate is rather poor if not awful for their positions.

meanwhile kidd is off the charts efficient and his ratio of usage to assists is incredible for a putative shooting guard. it's kind of ginobili-esque.

to me that is a huge key to the knicks success and i pray he can stay healthy.

Absolutely and isn't that a beautiful thing. Kidd bypassed going to Dallas to come to NY. He clearly saw how he could help the roster. At the same time the Knicks were 3-1 without Kidd and could have easily been 4-0. So while he takes us to another level the team won't completely fall apart if he isn't present.

Kidd didn't win his championship though until he became a role player because even though he is an impact player he didn't produce enough offensively in terms of scoring. Kidd would always need someone to produce at a high level to compliment him and vise versa.

You combine Kidds efficiency with Melo's production and you get a great combination. Everybody has flaws, highly successfull teams cover each others flaws.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Bonn1997
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12/8/2012  8:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/8/2012  8:53 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Here is an oldy but goody


http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/why-carmelo-anthony-is-the-ultimate-team-player-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/

Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player (and What ‘Advanced’ Stats Miss About Him)
By NATE SILVER

Carmelo Anthony, whom the Knicks are considering acquiring in a trade, is sometimes thought of as a selfish player. Indeed, he is the center of the Denver Nuggets’ offense: when he is on the court for them, about 30 percent of their possessions end in Anthony shooting, going to the foul line, or committing a turnover. Nor is Anthony much of a passer: over his career, he’s accumulated 3.1 assists per 36 minutes played, considerably less than that of other high-volume scorers like Kobe Bryant (4.6 assists per 36 minutes) or LeBron James (6.2).

In taking all of those shots, however, Anthony has also done something else: he’s made his teammates much more efficient offensive players.

Anthony is a controversial player among those who devote their time to analyzing basketball statistics. The reason is as follows: although he scores a lot of points, he does not do so especially efficiently. His True Shooting Percentage (TS%) – which accounts not just for two-point buckets but also for three-point shots and drawing fouls, neither of which are a particular strength of Anthony’s – is .527 this year and .543 for his career. Those figures are roughly at the league average, which is about .540 in most years.

Anthony’s TS% is also worse than all five of the Knicks’ regular starters, including Wilson Chandler (.579), Danilo Gallinari (.600), and Landry Fields (.611), the men whom he might replace in the lineup. This has led some to argue that Anthony could actually represent a step backward for the Knicks. David Berri, an economist at Southern Utah University who has developed a statistic called Wins Produced that places an extremely high premium on efficiency, told the Wall Street Journal that a Knicks roster with Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and Raymond Felton — but without Fields or Chandler — would win only 29 games per season.

This strikes me as highly implausible: the Nuggets, with a supporting cast that isn’t obviously any better than the one that Anthony would be joining in New York, have won an average of 48 games per season since Anthony’s rookie year, despite playing in the deep Western Conference. They have also been a relatively efficient offensive team. The year before Anthony joined the Nuggets, they ranked dead last in the N.B.A. in offensive efficiency (points scored per possession) on their way to winning just 17 games. But their offensive efficiently ranking shot up to 8th in the league in Anthony’s rookie season and has remained roughly at that level since.

What is missing from formulas like Berri’s is an account of what Anthony does to the rest of the Nuggets. Because he is able to score from anywhere in the court, Anthony draws attention and defenders away from his teammates, sometimes leaving them with wide-open shots. He also allows them to be more selective about the shots that they choose to take, since they know that Anthony can usually get a respectable shot off before the 24-second clock expires if needed.

These effects produce a profound increase in the efficiency of Anthony’s supporting cast when he is on the floor. In the 135 games that he played with the Nuggets, for instance, Allen Iverson’s True Shooting Percentage was 55.9 percent – much better than the 51.2 TS% that Iverson, a notoriously inefficient shooter, posted outside of Denver over the course of his career.

In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent).

The effect of a player who improves the rest of his team’s TS% by 3.8 points is extremely substantial: it is works out to their scoring about 5 or 5.5 additional points per game solely on the basis of this efficiency gain. That, in turn, translates into about 15 additional wins per season for an average team, according to a commonly-used formula. This is how Anthony creates most of his value — not in the shots he takes himself, but in the ones he creates for his teammates – and some of the “advanced” formulas completely miss it.

With that said, there is reason to question whether Anthony would have quite the same effect in New York that he did in Denver. With a few exceptions like Iverson, the Nuggets have generally surrounded Anthony with defensively-minded players like Camby who are not especially eager to shoot or who do not do so especially well. The Knicks, by contrast, are a run-and-gun team with lots of good shooters and they already rank fifth in the league in offensive efficiency.

There are some precedents for pairing several high-volume scorers together and seeing them thrive: when Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen joined Paul Pierce on the Celtics, for instance, all three players took fewer shots, but all three were rewarded with a significant increase in their TS%. On the other hand, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Chris Bosh have not seen an increase in their efficiency since joining together on the Miami Heat, even though they are shooting a bit less often.

So there are no guarantees – one would need to consider more carefully exactly how Anthony would integrate into Mike D’Antoni’s offense and exactly which type of shots he’d take. One would also need to think about Anthony’s defense and rebounding, where he is no standout. But upon a more careful examination, the argument that Anthony is a merely average offensive player turns out to be superficial.


Berri had a pretty good response to that article here. At the very least, Silver's argument has to be considered incomplete because he doesn't take into account the confounding factors that Berri identifies.
http://wagesofwins.com/2011/01/17/commenting-on-nate-silver%E2%80%99s-melo-effect/
The TS% changes appear to have more to do with the age of the players (more were in their primes when playing with Melo and before their primes before joining Melo) and the opponents not adjusting to the altitude change. It may be related to George Karl's coaching too and having two highly efficient offensive players (Nene and Billups), which in turn should elevate their teammates.

You can see here that, consistent with the TS% changes having more to do with those other factors, Melo's teammates played about as well with him off as with him on the floor.
http://arturogalletti.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/untitled28.png

Is it happening in NY too?


That's a good question. I don't have the TS%s of Melo's teammates with him on and off the floor but anything from this year alone would be based on too few data anyway (especially the off-the-court data).

Of course it would. lol. By the way Chandler with Melo .700 without .600 still good either way. Also as a whole in this game the shooting was down I believe. Bonn if you do not read Knickerblogger you might want to they have a lot of Berri discussions. Althought it seems few side with him another poster to even the discussion is always needed I think.


BTW, Tyson has shot .696 in the eleven games Melo has missed (this year and last year). He has 142 points on 69 shots in those eleven games. Maybe he's simply become a better offensive player.
yellowboy90
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12/8/2012  9:22 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:Here is an oldy but goody


http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/why-carmelo-anthony-is-the-ultimate-team-player-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/

Why Carmelo Anthony Is the Ultimate Team Player (and What ‘Advanced’ Stats Miss About Him)
By NATE SILVER

Carmelo Anthony, whom the Knicks are considering acquiring in a trade, is sometimes thought of as a selfish player. Indeed, he is the center of the Denver Nuggets’ offense: when he is on the court for them, about 30 percent of their possessions end in Anthony shooting, going to the foul line, or committing a turnover. Nor is Anthony much of a passer: over his career, he’s accumulated 3.1 assists per 36 minutes played, considerably less than that of other high-volume scorers like Kobe Bryant (4.6 assists per 36 minutes) or LeBron James (6.2).

In taking all of those shots, however, Anthony has also done something else: he’s made his teammates much more efficient offensive players.

Anthony is a controversial player among those who devote their time to analyzing basketball statistics. The reason is as follows: although he scores a lot of points, he does not do so especially efficiently. His True Shooting Percentage (TS%) – which accounts not just for two-point buckets but also for three-point shots and drawing fouls, neither of which are a particular strength of Anthony’s – is .527 this year and .543 for his career. Those figures are roughly at the league average, which is about .540 in most years.

Anthony’s TS% is also worse than all five of the Knicks’ regular starters, including Wilson Chandler (.579), Danilo Gallinari (.600), and Landry Fields (.611), the men whom he might replace in the lineup. This has led some to argue that Anthony could actually represent a step backward for the Knicks. David Berri, an economist at Southern Utah University who has developed a statistic called Wins Produced that places an extremely high premium on efficiency, told the Wall Street Journal that a Knicks roster with Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and Raymond Felton — but without Fields or Chandler — would win only 29 games per season.

This strikes me as highly implausible: the Nuggets, with a supporting cast that isn’t obviously any better than the one that Anthony would be joining in New York, have won an average of 48 games per season since Anthony’s rookie year, despite playing in the deep Western Conference. They have also been a relatively efficient offensive team. The year before Anthony joined the Nuggets, they ranked dead last in the N.B.A. in offensive efficiency (points scored per possession) on their way to winning just 17 games. But their offensive efficiently ranking shot up to 8th in the league in Anthony’s rookie season and has remained roughly at that level since.

What is missing from formulas like Berri’s is an account of what Anthony does to the rest of the Nuggets. Because he is able to score from anywhere in the court, Anthony draws attention and defenders away from his teammates, sometimes leaving them with wide-open shots. He also allows them to be more selective about the shots that they choose to take, since they know that Anthony can usually get a respectable shot off before the 24-second clock expires if needed.

These effects produce a profound increase in the efficiency of Anthony’s supporting cast when he is on the floor. In the 135 games that he played with the Nuggets, for instance, Allen Iverson’s True Shooting Percentage was 55.9 percent – much better than the 51.2 TS% that Iverson, a notoriously inefficient shooter, posted outside of Denver over the course of his career.

In fact, this is true of almost every Nugget who has played a sufficient number of minutes with Anthony. I identified 16 players who have accumulated least 2,000 minutes with the Nuggets in years when Anthony was on the team, and have also played at least 2,000 minutes in the N.B.A. without Anthony (either because they were playing for a different team or because they were on the Nuggets before Anthony’s rookie season). All but 2 of the players – Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard – posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates’ TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent).

The effect of a player who improves the rest of his team’s TS% by 3.8 points is extremely substantial: it is works out to their scoring about 5 or 5.5 additional points per game solely on the basis of this efficiency gain. That, in turn, translates into about 15 additional wins per season for an average team, according to a commonly-used formula. This is how Anthony creates most of his value — not in the shots he takes himself, but in the ones he creates for his teammates – and some of the “advanced” formulas completely miss it.

With that said, there is reason to question whether Anthony would have quite the same effect in New York that he did in Denver. With a few exceptions like Iverson, the Nuggets have generally surrounded Anthony with defensively-minded players like Camby who are not especially eager to shoot or who do not do so especially well. The Knicks, by contrast, are a run-and-gun team with lots of good shooters and they already rank fifth in the league in offensive efficiency.

There are some precedents for pairing several high-volume scorers together and seeing them thrive: when Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen joined Paul Pierce on the Celtics, for instance, all three players took fewer shots, but all three were rewarded with a significant increase in their TS%. On the other hand, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Chris Bosh have not seen an increase in their efficiency since joining together on the Miami Heat, even though they are shooting a bit less often.

So there are no guarantees – one would need to consider more carefully exactly how Anthony would integrate into Mike D’Antoni’s offense and exactly which type of shots he’d take. One would also need to think about Anthony’s defense and rebounding, where he is no standout. But upon a more careful examination, the argument that Anthony is a merely average offensive player turns out to be superficial.


Berri had a pretty good response to that article here. At the very least, Silver's argument has to be considered incomplete because he doesn't take into account the confounding factors that Berri identifies.
http://wagesofwins.com/2011/01/17/commenting-on-nate-silver%E2%80%99s-melo-effect/
The TS% changes appear to have more to do with the age of the players (more were in their primes when playing with Melo and before their primes before joining Melo) and the opponents not adjusting to the altitude change. It may be related to George Karl's coaching too and having two highly efficient offensive players (Nene and Billups), which in turn should elevate their teammates.

You can see here that, consistent with the TS% changes having more to do with those other factors, Melo's teammates played about as well with him off as with him on the floor.
http://arturogalletti.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/untitled28.png

Is it happening in NY too?


That's a good question. I don't have the TS%s of Melo's teammates with him on and off the floor but anything from this year alone would be based on too few data anyway (especially the off-the-court data).

Of course it would. lol. By the way Chandler with Melo .700 without .600 still good either way. Also as a whole in this game the shooting was down I believe. Bonn if you do not read Knickerblogger you might want to they have a lot of Berri discussions. Althought it seems few side with him another poster to even the discussion is always needed I think.


BTW, Tyson has shot .696 in the eleven games Melo has missed (this year and last year). He has 142 points on 69 shots in those eleven games. Maybe he's simply become a better offensive player.

Isn't he to old to get better? lol.
mrKnickShot
Posts: 28157
Alba Posts: 16
Joined: 5/3/2011
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12/9/2012  1:12 AM
I told you! I told you!

we certainly did not need Melo tonight. I love watching Felton shoot 30 shots.

Carmelo Anthony's MVP Season and the New York Knicks

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