holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah better than Melo..ok

You complain that Melo had nobody. Who did Noah have this year?

He is a great leader, DPOY (deserved (not like Tyson)), great passer ...

To truly appreciate what he brings you need to not just look at PPG.

Well Augustine was better than Felton and Gibson was better than any other Knick..But Thibs just goes hard in the regular season..He runs his players into the ground..Deng now looks like an old man..Noah will be there in two/three years..

But since everyone plays hard in the playoffs, what will he do different in the playoffs ?

Did you mean that he will be gone? I think that Thibs is gone before him. Noah is a cult hero in chicago.

Here is a great article that I really liked about Noah:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1967883-joakim-noahs-value-to-chicago-bulls-present-and-future-cant-be-understated

If D Rose comes back decent, they are in pretty good shape.

If they add Melo, they are in really good shape.

If they Amnesty Boozer, they have 19 million to spend.

They will be fine.

Chicago ran into a very underrated team in washington. Chicago has a horrible team outside of Noah. Boozer is a disaster, Gibson was pretty good but lets not go crazy, Hinrich is almost as bad as Felton, Butler regressed, DJ was a surprise ..., it was all Noah.

The dude had 13 assists in one game and triple doubles! He does whatever it takes.

I don't know, maybe I am biased. Noah has always been my favorite player in the league. I love what he brings to every game, he leaves it all out there every night.

He is a top 3-5 mvp candidate this year on top of his DPOY.

I didn't have Chicago winning this series..U need talent and stars in the playoffs..
So No, Thibs will run Noah into the ground in two/three years..MDA ran Amare into the ground..Rose has two injured knees..Deng has slowed..Coaches who run their teams hard in the regular season has to come up with something other than hard play in the playoffs..Everyone wants it in the playoffs..

I don't get this running guys into the ground bit? guys like rodman and Ben wallace played hard and at a high level for many years... rose has two injured knees, so what does that mean? we have a guy with two injured shoulders and folks are ready to max him out, and he is a lot older than rose..

Noah is a star player, so is rose, even on a bad knee or two... and taj gibson is turning into a fine PF... an upgrade over boozer...

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:BTW: someone said Bradley Beal is overrated? tell me where is he rated? so far he looks very good... and he is still just a baby, at 21 years of age? his best years are far ahead of him and he is getting it done now....

Yea someone also said john wall was overrated. He's really progressing nicely as a p and his shot is much better

could have been me lol. I was not a fan of john wall at first, and he is slowly gaining me as a fan.. but he is doing the things I like to see in player development.. and that is on defense and passing.. I still thinks he plays a bit too fast at times, but I am impressed with his development..

to be fair, wall was really rated as this all world player.. I think he was overrated to start and still hasn't lived up to the hype although he is a very fine player.. Beal I am not sure how he was overrated as I think he is progressing at a rate that fits his skill set and age actually.. he may even be ahead of the curve..

NYKBocker wrote:

tkf wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:BTW: someone said Bradley Beal is overrated? tell me where is he rated? so far he looks very good... and he is still just a baby, at 21 years of age? his best years are far ahead of him and he is getting it done now....

Yea someone also said john wall was overrated. He's really progressing nicely as a p and his shot is much better

could have been me lol. I was not a fan of john wall at first, and he is slowly gaining me as a fan.. but he is doing the things I like to see in player development.. and that is on defense and passing.. I still thinks he plays a bit too fast at times, but I am impressed with his development..

to be fair, wall was really rated as this all world player.. I think he was overrated to start and still hasn't lived up to the hype although he is a very fine player.. Beal I am not sure how he was overrated as I think he is progressing at a rate that fits his skill set and age actually.. he may even be ahead of the curve..

I am really liking that backcourt. I have been a big fan of Beal for awhile now. The Bullets have the right parts right now to make a lot of noise moving forward.

Beal is a very interesting player.. I looked up his age.. the dude is still just 20.. at this point in his career I think he is better than wall was.... wall is finally starting to live up to some of that promise... both compliment each other well, have great size and athletic ability in the back court... to think we have to face these two for years to come... jeeeezus.... LOL...

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:Noah better than Melo..ok

You complain that Melo had nobody. Who did Noah have this year?

He is a great leader, DPOY (deserved (not like Tyson)), great passer ...

To truly appreciate what he brings you need to not just look at PPG.

Well Augustine was better than Felton and Gibson was better than any other Knick..But Thibs just goes hard in the regular season..He runs his players into the ground..Deng now looks like an old man..Noah will be there in two/three years..

But since everyone plays hard in the playoffs, what will he do different in the playoffs ?

Did you mean that he will be gone? I think that Thibs is gone before him. Noah is a cult hero in chicago.

Here is a great article that I really liked about Noah:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1967883-joakim-noahs-value-to-chicago-bulls-present-and-future-cant-be-understated

If D Rose comes back decent, they are in pretty good shape.

If they add Melo, they are in really good shape.

If they Amnesty Boozer, they have 19 million to spend.

They will be fine.

Chicago ran into a very underrated team in washington. Chicago has a horrible team outside of Noah. Boozer is a disaster, Gibson was pretty good but lets not go crazy, Hinrich is almost as bad as Felton, Butler regressed, DJ was a surprise ..., it was all Noah.

The dude had 13 assists in one game and triple doubles! He does whatever it takes.

I don't know, maybe I am biased. Noah has always been my favorite player in the league. I love what he brings to every game, he leaves it all out there every night.

He is a top 3-5 mvp candidate this year on top of his DPOY.

I didn't have Chicago winning this series..U need talent and stars in the playoffs..
So No, Thibs will run Noah into the ground in two/three years..MDA ran Amare into the ground..Rose has two injured knees..Deng has slowed..Coaches who run their teams hard in the regular season has to come up with something other than hard play in the playoffs..Everyone wants it in the playoffs..

I don't get this running guys into the ground bit? guys like rodman and Ben wallace played hard and at a high level for many years... rose has two injured knees, so what does that mean? we have a guy with two injured shoulders and folks are ready to max him out, and he is a lot older than rose..

Noah is a star player, so is rose, even on a bad knee or two... and taj gibson is turning into a fine PF... an upgrade over boozer...

They are not race horses, you have to pace these guys..Popovich does it...MDA ran Amare into the ground..I remember either starting a thread or making a big deal about it when Amare was on his 30 pt for 8 consecutive game scoring binge...I said at the time that he needed help and couldn't possibly continue at this pace...Dude broke down in the second half of the season..we had no clue what happened to him and he still can't go at a full pace 3 years later..Deng does not look like the same player...Noah works hard and has foot problems, I don't want his next contract...

he averaged 37 minutes a game under d'antoni that isn't running a player into the ground. however, the way stoudemire played-- running into two or three defenders on offense-- he wore himself out.

for comaprison's sake:

Rk	Player	       Age	G	GS	MP ▾	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Raymond Felton	26	54	54	38.4	6.3	14.8	.423	1.6	5.0	.328	4.6	9.9	.471	2.9	3.4	.867	0.7	2.9	3.6	9.0	1.8	0.2	3.3	2.1	17.1
2	Amar'e Stoudem	28	78	78	36.8	9.5	19.0	.502	0.1	0.3	.435	9.4	18.7	.503	6.1	7.7	.792	2.5	5.6	8.2	2.6	0.9	1.9	3.2	3.5	25.3
3	Carmelo Anthony	26	27	27	36.2	9.1	19.9	.461	2.0	4.6	.424	7.2	15.2	.472	6.1	7.0	.872	1.5	5.2	6.7	3.0	0.9	0.6	2.4	3.3	26.3
4	Danilo Gallinar	22	48	48	34.8	4.4	10.6	.415	1.7	5.0	.347	2.7	5.6	.474	5.4	6.0	.893	1.0	3.8	4.8	1.7	0.8	0.4	1.2	2.4	15.9
5	Wilson Chandler	23	51	30	34.5	6.4	14.0	.461	1.7	4.8	.351	4.7	9.2	.518	1.9	2.3	.807	1.2	4.7	5.9	1.7	0.7	1.4	1.3	3.0	16.4

Rk Player	        Age	G	MP	PER	TS% ▾	eFG%	FTr	3PAr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48	
4	Danilo Gallinar 22	48	1671	15.6	.600	.496	.570	.470	3.3	12.5	7.8	7.4	1.1	0.8	8.4	18.5	122	112	4.2	0.7	4.9	.140
5	Landry Fields	22	82	2541	13.5	.598	.568	.244	.364	4.7	18.9	11.7	9.0	1.6	0.5	13.8	13.5	115	110	3.4	1.8	5.3	.100
6	Bill Walker	23	61	784	11.3	.583	.566	.186	.648	2.3	15.6	8.9	6.6	1.3	0.6	12.7	16.6	108	111	0.7	0.4	1.1	.069
7	Chauncey Billup	34	21	664	19.1	.582	.483	.512	.484	2.2	9.0	5.6	27.4	1.4	0.2	13.2	24.3	118	113	1.9	0.2	2.1	.155
8	Carmelo Anthony	26	27	977	22.8	.575	.510	.351	.233	4.8	16.5	10.6	15.3	1.3	1.1	9.4	31.0	114	111	2.6	0.6	3.2	.157
9	Amar'e Stoudemi	28	78	2870	22.7	.565	.505	.403	.016	7.8	17.6	12.7	13.2	1.2	3.8	12.5	30.9	109	108	5.4	2.6	8.0	.134
11	Wilson Chandler	23	51	1759	15.7	.548	.521	.167	.344	4.0	15.8	9.8	8.1	1.0	2.9	8.1	21.0	109	110	2.3	1.2	3.4	.094

fishmike wrote:DK... its not the average minutes. Its the number of games MDA played Amare 40 minutes. Thats what hurts. Its wasnt the average #, its the spikes. Dude has bad knees and MDA was running him out for 40 minutes a night in an uptemp offense time after time. Sure... throw in some 30 minute games and his average looks OK. Look at his game logs.

okay i did and it looks like he had 13 games of 40 minutes or more over 55 games, and during the streak where he wore himself out he had a 4 game stretch of 40+ minute games. that's one game in 4 that he goes over 40 minutes, and if you take out the four game stretch during his foolish streak it comes out to more like one game in five.

to be clear i did not like the streak for the very reason that he was going to burn himself out and to what end? i don't put that on d'antoni-- i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts amare insisted on playing as much as he did and decided to go one on three the majority of the time. is that so laudable really? especially when he managed to basically go it alone instead of developing chemistry slowly and deliberately?

i don't think d'antoni was interested in "riding him like secretariat," so to d'antoni's discredit he didn't limit amare's minutes more. popovich or rivers would have because amare was not playing the right way. playing hard yes but playing smart absolutely not.

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:DK... its not the average minutes. Its the number of games MDA played Amare 40 minutes. Thats what hurts. Its wasnt the average #, its the spikes. Dude has bad knees and MDA was running him out for 40 minutes a night in an uptemp offense time after time. Sure... throw in some 30 minute games and his average looks OK. Look at his game logs.

okay i did and it looks like he had 13 games of 40 minutes or more over 55 games, and during the streak where he wore himself out he had a 4 game stretch of 40+ minute games. that's one game in 4 that he goes over 40 minutes, and if you take out the four game stretch during his foolish streak it comes out to more like one game in five.

to be clear i did not like the streak for the very reason that he was going to burn himself out and to what end? i don't put that on d'antoni-- i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts amare insisted on playing as much as he did and decided to go one on three the majority of the time. is that so laudable really? especially when he managed to basically go it alone instead of developing chemistry slowly and deliberately?

i don't think d'antoni was interested in "riding him like secretariat," so to d'antoni's discredit he didn't limit amare's minutes more. popovich or rivers would have because amare was not playing the right way. playing hard yes but playing smart absolutely not.

Here are Amare game minutes logged during his 30 point performances

ag Detroit 11/28...54 min OT
ag Nets 11/30....41 mins
ag NO 12/3....41 mins..
ag TOR 12/5...38 mins..
ag MIN 12/6...39 mins..
ag TOR 12/8....43 mins..
ag WAS 12/10....42 mins..
ag DEN 12/12....40 mins...
ag BOS 12/15....42 mins
ag MIA 12/17....38 mins..
ag CLE 12/18.....41 mins..

On surgically repaired knees....Over 55 games???

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:DK... its not the average minutes. Its the number of games MDA played Amare 40 minutes. Thats what hurts. Its wasnt the average #, its the spikes. Dude has bad knees and MDA was running him out for 40 minutes a night in an uptemp offense time after time. Sure... throw in some 30 minute games and his average looks OK. Look at his game logs.

okay i did and it looks like he had 13 games of 40 minutes or more over 55 games, and during the streak where he wore himself out he had a 4 game stretch of 40+ minute games. that's one game in 4 that he goes over 40 minutes, and if you take out the four game stretch during his foolish streak it comes out to more like one game in five.

to be clear i did not like the streak for the very reason that he was going to burn himself out and to what end? i don't put that on d'antoni-- i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts amare insisted on playing as much as he did and decided to go one on three the majority of the time. is that so laudable really? especially when he managed to basically go it alone instead of developing chemistry slowly and deliberately?

i don't think d'antoni was interested in "riding him like secretariat," so to d'antoni's discredit he didn't limit amare's minutes more. popovich or rivers would have because amare was not playing the right way. playing hard yes but playing smart absolutely not.

Good post.

If his usage to assist rate was better than 4:1 that would have helped.

Maybe the worst and most unwilling passer in knicks history.

You have that usage stat wrong. Usage measures how much the ball is in a player's hands no?

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	MP	PER	TS%	eFG%	FTr	3PAr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
2010-11 28	NYK	NBA	C	78	2870	22.7	.565	.505	.403	.016	7.8	17.6	12.7	13.2	1.2	3.8	12.5	30.9	109	108	5.4	2.6	8.0	.134

i bolded three things: his TS% is pretty good for a guy who does not take threes. the ratio of usage-- 30.9-- to assist rate which is 13.2 is 2.34:1 which is too high unless all you are is a finisher. during that first half of the season stoudemire was not merely a finisher-- he got the ball a majority of the time on the elbows and tried to make something happen from there, freezing out teammates in the process. he got his, the knicks got some wins, but again i ask "to what end?"

also, if we were to look specifically at his "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" part of the season i will guarantee you that the usage was far higher and the assist rate far lower. i don't have to look up the stats since i know what i saw but if you need the stats to illuminate what i am asserting i suppose i could.

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:DK... its not the average minutes. Its the number of games MDA played Amare 40 minutes. Thats what hurts. Its wasnt the average #, its the spikes. Dude has bad knees and MDA was running him out for 40 minutes a night in an uptemp offense time after time. Sure... throw in some 30 minute games and his average looks OK. Look at his game logs.

okay i did and it looks like he had 13 games of 40 minutes or more over 55 games, and during the streak where he wore himself out he had a 4 game stretch of 40+ minute games. that's one game in 4 that he goes over 40 minutes, and if you take out the four game stretch during his foolish streak it comes out to more like one game in five.

to be clear i did not like the streak for the very reason that he was going to burn himself out and to what end? i don't put that on d'antoni-- i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts amare insisted on playing as much as he did and decided to go one on three the majority of the time. is that so laudable really? especially when he managed to basically go it alone instead of developing chemistry slowly and deliberately?

i don't think d'antoni was interested in "riding him like secretariat," so to d'antoni's discredit he didn't limit amare's minutes more. popovich or rivers would have because amare was not playing the right way. playing hard yes but playing smart absolutely not.

Good post.

If his usage to assist rate was better than 4:1 that would have helped.

Maybe the worst and most unwilling passer in knicks history.

You have that usage stat wrong. Usage measures how much the ball is in a player's hands no?

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	MP	PER	TS%	eFG%	FTr	3PAr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
2010-11 28	NYK	NBA	C	78	2870	22.7	.565	.505	.403	.016	7.8	17.6	12.7	13.2	1.2	3.8	12.5	30.9	109	108	5.4	2.6	8.0	.134

i bolded three things: his TS% is pretty good for a guy who does not take threes. the ratio of usage-- 30.9-- to assist rate which is 13.2 is 2.34:1 which is too high unless all you are is a finisher. during that first half of the season stoudemire was not merely a finisher-- he got the ball a majority of the time on the elbows and tried to make something happen from there, freezing out teammates in the process. he got his, the knicks got some wins, but again i ask "to what end?"

also, if we were to look specifically at his "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" part of the season i will guarantee you that the usage was far higher and the assist rate far lower. i don't have to look up the stats since i know what i saw but if you need the stats to illuminate what i am asserting i suppose i could.

How about addressing the stats that showed MDA ran Amare into the ground which I think Fish is more interesting in...Instead to trying to change the subject which u address..