martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:The 2 prediction threads for this year. No one predicted that Knicks would be a contending team and the most optimistic is around 56 wins?

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66576

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66577

I knew it was going to take time. The question is how does the team improve with no picks of value and the second apron looming in the horizon?

Cleveland probably were asking the same questions after they traded for Donovan and got iced by NY?

We don't have a young core of Allen, Garland and Mobley. I think their upside was always factored in when the Cavs made that trade. Also, that trade was made before this new CBA kicked in.

So they do and did get a couple of years to get it right.

The difference is that the Cavs had a visible plan for improvement. I don't think anyone can a strategy for improving the team as it stands. I'm more than open for ideas. Maybe the cap increases enough to add another vet bench piece? Maybe a Mitch and Deuce trade package? That's a tough one due their relatively low combined salary. And plus, that would mean diminishing an already weak bench. Brock has his job cut out for him.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:The 2 prediction threads for this year. No one predicted that Knicks would be a contending team and the most optimistic is around 56 wins?

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66576

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66577

I knew it was going to take time. The question is how does the team improve with no picks of value and the second apron looming in the horizon?

Cleveland probably were asking the same questions after they traded for Donovan and got iced by NY?

We don't have a young core of Allen, Garland and Mobley. I think their upside was always factored in when the Cavs made that trade. Also, that trade was made before this new CBA kicked in.

So they do and did get a couple of years to get it right.

The difference is that the Cavs had a visible plan for improvement. I don't think anyone can a strategy for improving the team as it stands. I'm more than open for ideas. Maybe the cap increases enough to add another vet bench piece? Maybe a Mitch OG and Deuce Bridges trade package? That's a tough one due their relatively low combined salary. And plus, that would mean diminishing an already weak bench. Brock has his job cut out for him.

Fixed

fishmike wrote:lol we keep losing to the champs... must be the coach. Feels like I have heard this song before.

Better hope Cleveland doesn't win it this year.

Pop quiz: what do the Celtics, Bucks, Warriors and Raptors all have in common? Each won a title at some point in the past six years, each after moving on from a coach who’d led them out of the wilderness into competence, if not contention. Brad Stevens couldn’t get past LeBron and Ime Udoka couldn’t honor his vows to his wife nor handle the woman he had an affair with losing interest in him; twas Joe Mazzulla who got to enter the Promised Land with Tatum, Brown and Company. Giannis Antetokounmpo had more to do with the Bucks getting back on their own two feet than Jason Kidd did, but it was under Kidd that Milwaukee first bared its teeth, taking the older and more experienced Raptors to six games, until Kidd pulled the same failed putsch **** he does everywhere, leading to Mike Budenholzer’s arrival and eventual coronation.

After posting one lone winning season out of nine, Toronto turned to Dwane Casey and took off, posting five straight winning seasons, three of them 50-win campaigns. No titles? No thank you: Nick Nurse was brought in, more importantly Kawhi Leonard was, too, and voila! a Canadian championship. When Golden State hired Mark Jackson, the 11 seasons prior under anybody not named Don Nelson were all losing seasons. In Jackson’s last two years in charge, the Warriors won their first playoff series in six years and followed that up with their first 50-win campaign in 20. The players adored Jackson. The front office didn’t care. In came Steve Kerr, followed by only the second dynasty of this scared and shrieking century.

GustavBahler wrote:https://www.thestrick.land/strick/celtics-118-knicks-105-new-york-will-never-win-a-title-with-tom-thibodeau-in-charge

Pop quiz: what do the Celtics, Bucks, Warriors and Raptors all have in common? Each won a title at some point in the past six years, each after moving on from a coach who’d led them out of the wilderness into competence, if not contention. Brad Stevens couldn’t get past LeBron and Ime Udoka couldn’t honor his vows to his wife nor handle the woman he had an affair with losing interest in him; twas Joe Mazzulla who got to enter the Promised Land with Tatum, Brown and Company. Giannis Antetokounmpo had more to do with the Bucks getting back on their own two feet than Jason Kidd did, but it was under Kidd that Milwaukee first bared its teeth, taking the older and more experienced Raptors to six games, until Kidd pulled the same failed putsch **** he does everywhere, leading to Mike Budenholzer’s arrival and eventual coronation.

After posting one lone winning season out of nine, Toronto turned to Dwane Casey and took off, posting five straight winning seasons, three of them 50-win campaigns. No titles? No thank you: Nick Nurse was brought in, more importantly Kawhi Leonard was, too, and voila! a Canadian championship. When Golden State hired Mark Jackson, the 11 seasons prior under anybody not named Don Nelson were all losing seasons. In Jackson’s last two years in charge, the Warriors won their first playoff series in six years and followed that up with their first 50-win campaign in 20. The players adored Jackson. The front office didn’t care. In came Steve Kerr, followed by only the second dynasty of this scared and shrieking century.

That makes too much sence. Too much

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:The 2 prediction threads for this year. No one predicted that Knicks would be a contending team and the most optimistic is around 56 wins?

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66576

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66577

I knew it was going to take time. The question is how does the team improve with no picks of value and the second apron looming in the horizon?

Cleveland probably were asking the same questions after they traded for Donovan and got iced by NY?

We don't have a young core of Allen, Garland and Mobley. I think their upside was always factored in when the Cavs made that trade. Also, that trade was made before this new CBA kicked in.

So they do and did get a couple of years to get it right.

The difference is that the Cavs had a visible plan for improvement. I don't think anyone can a strategy for improving the team as it stands. I'm more than open for ideas. Maybe the cap increases enough to add another vet bench piece? Maybe a Mitch and Deuce trade package? That's a tough one due their relatively low combined salary. And plus, that would mean diminishing an already weak bench. Brock has his job cut out for him.

Feel like this is the response every year. How can the Knicks get better?

Before last year, iHart and Donte were not foreseen at their level of play. Before those 2, Josh Hart was not at the level he played either. Before that, Jalen was not seen at his current MVP level of play and the year before he arrived, he was not really a target. Who thought we could trade Randle for anything, right? We collectively had imaginary trades involving Randle to INCLUDE picks going out, or in the very least he was a net negative via trade.

It’s the challenge of every team. If we can say Cavs had a plan that included Mobley taking 2 years to finally get better, we can’t do the same for the Knicks players? Am I missing something?

If the Knicks don’t care for KAT and how flawed he and Brunson combine to be defensively, they move KAT to a team that needs a 1A type offensively.

Every year the Knicks seem to not have a visible plan. And then something happens. Pretty much every year.

Fournier, Kemba was the bottom, 2021-22.

- Next year 22-23 they add Josh, iHart, Brunson. Josh shines in his half season, iHart was meh to solid because he couldn’t shoot 3s and had the Achilles thing (and 2 years later he is the key to fully unlocking OKC). Brunson, very good.

- 2023-24 1A Brunson starts to emerge, they added Donte, trade for OG, and iHart shines. Deuce shows up out of nowhere. OG was considered an impossible trade?

- Summer 2024, immovable Randle turns into KAT. Josh is playing insane ball. Mikal added (another highly unlikely trade with Brooklyn). The Knicks completely flip from defensive strengths to offensive. Wild transformation.

Every year the Knicks have upgraded. Somehow. Knicks have the toughest pieces in place, the hard parts are done. This team is closer not further from the last level IMHO.

I look at the prediction threads and none us expected the Knicks to complete for a title. Seemed right, still seems right. And yet, that is exactly our only complaint left and exactly what we expect to happen? We can’t compete against 3 teams in the league right now. That’s not unexpected? Shouldn’t it be? The effort and execution are not good against those teams. For me disappointing but not end of world for a newly formed team.

Knicks biggest setback came in the form of exactly our biggest flaw, losing iHart and the rim protection as well as toughness. I can wait on a year for Huk to get somewhere and for Mitch to start playing again and then for Kolek to get integrated. I can wait 2 years on Dadiet. Cleveland could have blow it up or folded after getting trounced by NY 2 years ago and Boston last year?

Cleveland is still in the same loss column for the last 2 playoffs as the Knicks. They did their all in stuff 2 years ago with Donovan.

Voice of reason! Good job.

Issue as it stands KAT on defense sucks. Stats are bad.
We can't stop the best of the best but we running the rest of the league rather well with our offense.
Denver did this two years ago and won.
At this stage OG is a better defender than Jimmy Butler. Jimmy makes over 50mil.
Can Thibs fix KAT enough to make it work? I don't know. Can another coach?
KAT was traded here as the season started. There was no time to acclimate him and we lost 2 to Celts and Cavs in the first week.

We are not elite. Never was expected.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:The 2 prediction threads for this year. No one predicted that Knicks would be a contending team and the most optimistic is around 56 wins?

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66576

https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66577

I knew it was going to take time. The question is how does the team improve with no picks of value and the second apron looming in the horizon?

Cleveland probably were asking the same questions after they traded for Donovan and got iced by NY?

We don't have a young core of Allen, Garland and Mobley. I think their upside was always factored in when the Cavs made that trade. Also, that trade was made before this new CBA kicked in.

So they do and did get a couple of years to get it right.

The difference is that the Cavs had a visible plan for improvement. I don't think anyone can a strategy for improving the team as it stands. I'm more than open for ideas. Maybe the cap increases enough to add another vet bench piece? Maybe a Mitch and Deuce trade package? That's a tough one due their relatively low combined salary. And plus, that would mean diminishing an already weak bench. Brock has his job cut out for him.

Feel like this is the response every year. How can the Knicks get better?

Before last year, iHart and Donte were not foreseen at their level of play. Before those 2, Josh Hart was not at the level he played either. Before that, Jalen was not seen at his current MVP level of play and the year before he arrived, he was not really a target. Who thought we could trade Randle for anything, right? We collectively had imaginary trades involving Randle to INCLUDE picks going out, or in the very least he was a net negative via trade.

It’s the challenge of every team. If we can say Cavs had a plan that included Mobley taking 2 years to finally get better, we can’t do the same for the Knicks players? Am I missing something?

If the Knicks don’t care for KAT and how flawed he and Brunson combine to be defensively, they move KAT to a team that needs a 1A type offensively.

Every year the Knicks seem to not have a visible plan. And then something happens. Pretty much every year.

Fournier, Kemba was the bottom, 2021-22.

- Next year 22-23 they add Josh, iHart, Brunson. Josh shines in his half season, iHart was meh to solid because he couldn’t shoot 3s and had the Achilles thing (and 2 years later he is the key to fully unlocking OKC). Brunson, very good.

- 2023-24 1A Brunson starts to emerge, they added Donte, trade for OG, and iHart shines. Deuce shows up out of nowhere. OG was considered an impossible trade?

- Summer 2024, immovable Randle turns into KAT. Josh is playing insane ball. Mikal added (another highly unlikely trade with Brooklyn). The Knicks completely flip from defensive strengths to offensive. Wild transformation.

Every year the Knicks have upgraded. Somehow. Knicks have the toughest pieces in place, the hard parts are done. This team is closer not further from the last level IMHO.

I look at the prediction threads and none us expected the Knicks to complete for a title. Seemed right, still seems right. And yet, that is exactly our only complaint left and exactly what we expect to happen? We can’t compete against 3 teams in the league right now. That’s not unexpected? Shouldn’t it be? The effort and execution are not good against those teams. For me disappointing but not end of world for a newly formed team.

Knicks biggest setback came in the form of exactly our biggest flaw, losing iHart and the rim protection as well as toughness. I can wait on a year for Huk to get somewhere and for Mitch to start playing again and then for Kolek to get integrated. I can wait 2 years on Dadiet. Cleveland could have blow it up or folded after getting trounced by NY 2 years ago and Boston last year?

Cleveland is still in the same loss column for the last 2 playoffs as the Knicks. They did their all in stuff 2 years ago with Donovan.

Did no one watch last year and the January Knicks- who absolutely looked like world champions. And then injuries took us out of contention.

It’s not just the top teams we struggle against. I mean, we needed overtime to eke out a victory against the Chicago Bulls who sit 10th at 386. Sorry. Don’t give me any BS about we were short handed or a win is a win.

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:I don’t understand why anyone didn’t expect them to compete this year? They are not getting any younger- they are in their peak athletic years- 28, 29.

Did no one watch last year and the January Knicks- who absolutely looked like world champions. And then injuries took us out of contention.

It’s not just the top teams we struggle against. I mean, we needed overtime to eke out a victory against the Chicago Bulls who sit 10th at 386. Sorry. Don’t give me any BS about we were short handed or a win is a win.

Anyone that actually pays attention to the rest of the league understood why the Knicks weren't ready to compete for a chip. The Celts won the chip last year....isnt their core in the peak athletic years too? Tatem is 26 and Brown is 28. They have played together for 8 seaons. Towns and Bridges have played with their teamates for 57 games!

OKC is a better team than we are and that was obvious coming into the season, if you watched them last year. If you watched the Cavs, you knew that they were Mobley leveling up on the offensive end and a more innovative coach away from beng one of the top 4 teams in the east. Mobley, took a bigger jumop than most expected, and Atkinson, has that team playing lights out on the offensive end with two really good run and jump athletes that can switch on PNR's and protect the rim.

Today, the Cavs, Celts and OKC have more balanced rosters than we do....Anyone thats not hyper-focused on the Knicks can see that.

Maybe you don’t have to expect them to win it all, but to be competitive with the top teams? We aren’t even that and that is the problem.

And again- after the stretch this group put together in January last year- if you had run that group back, healthy, and for a full year- yes, I think not insane to expect that they would have had as much chance as any of those other teams.