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Good article about Channing frye
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TheloniusMonk
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6/20/2005  1:28 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by TheloniusMonk:
Posted by Ira:

There's one sure formula for blowing a lottery pick. Draft a finesse center.

Olajuwan was finesse.

I hope that you arent favorably comparing French Frye and Hakeem in the same breath! Hakeem was a powerfully built specimen with extreme athletiscm and skill second to none.

You know what? When I typed that I knew it would take someone like you to say that I am comparing Frye's game to Hakeems game. The man just made a historical comment that the recipe for disaster is drafting a finesse center. I said that basically when Olajuwan came into the league he was not known as a power guy. Neither was David Robinson. Neither was Lew Alcindor. My point is, just because a center has finesse skills doesn't make him a disaster.

Then here you come, taking a general statement about the history of drafting centers and saying that I am comparing Frye with Olajuwan. You're reaching!
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Pharzeone
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6/20/2005  1:29 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by joec32033:
If he was so great why was he considered a fringe first rounder before the tourney? I don't buy into the fact that these guys who have a good tourney are any better than guys who don't. Other than the Tourney look at the reason that caused his stock to rise....Gaining an enormous amount of muscle in a very small amount of time, sorry, I figure you can bunch Frye in with Taft, Bynum, Turiaf, Simien...I don't think he is a franchise center, he may be servicable at best. He gets all these comparisons to Camby but remember, Camby flat out Dominated college. I remember it was Camby vs Duncan that whole college season. Frye hasn't dominated anything.
I meantioned that and those are great points. Yes Frye is skilled, yes he has good size, yes he had a good tourney...

But you cant escape the fact that your using your lottery pick on a guy that never dominated his competiton in 4 years. Not to mention in a weak conference for bigmen.

Frye never had one great season where you said wow. Heck.. Curtis had *that*

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=4971
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=BORCHCU01
At least Frye was tested, we all know is shortcomings in college and they have been expressed in detail. Bynum spent most days when he actually played dunking on most guys who will never play at the college level. This is not James, or even Stoudamire who had a following even before he was 18. This is not like Dwight Howard coming out of a tough league. We have spent much time bashing Frye but I want to spend sometime bashing Bynum but you can't because he hasn't even been tested. While it maybe nice that he has the potential (although who knows, because he wasn't even listed as a potential lottery pick for future drafts), we are bascially going on Briggs' assessment of the kid. His would be college coach said he is not ready, I know he has an agenda too but he has been honest with all his players before, and I never heard of any of them saying that he held them back.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
TheloniusMonk
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6/20/2005  1:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TheloniusMonk:

Olajuwan was finesse.
Hakeem was SKILLED. Finesse wasnt a word I would use to describe his game. This guy was a TOUGH nasty player that brought it every game won 2 titles.

First of all, I didn't say his game was ALL finesse. He just used a lot of finesse to get his shot off. A lot of footwork. He rarely put his weight on other centers in order to get his shot off. It's was spins, drop steps, fade aways and everything else that has to do with a master of footwork. He was bulldozing anyone down to get his shot off. Having finesse in one's game doesn't mean you're calling them soft. I by no means am saying he wasn't tough. And as far as the 2 rings, we're talking draft here. Hakeem didn't have 2 NBA championship rings when he was drafted. The comment dude made was to draft a finesse center is the recipe for disaster. I disgreed.

No one is saying Hakeem wasn't tough.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Bonn1997
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6/20/2005  1:54 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

okay, I just looked it up and there were only three games where he had less than 5 rebounds that weren't blowout wins for Arizona. So he basically had three bad games rebounding this season. The rest of his low rebound totals came against squads Zona BLEW OUT.



http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=4971
That definitely helps clarify things. What were his stats in the non-blowout games? They were probably quiet impressive
fishmike
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6/20/2005  2:46 PM
finesse is OK... Frye has good skills on offense. He's not garbage but he's got legit knocks on him.

7 rebounds in 31 minutes is not impressive. I'm sorry. He got pushed around quite often. He's thin and he doesnt have Camby's athleticism to overcome it.

11/26 W Forest L 63-60 rebs:3
1/29 Wash St L 70-63 rebs:2
1/27 Washington W 91-82 rebs:2
2/26 @Washington L 93-85 rebs:5
3/12 Washington L 81-72 rebs:6

The fact that he struggled so much against Wash a team with no centers is a little scary. Their best weapon is Nate Robinson. I'm not sure they have a guy taller than 6'9 but the kept Frye off the boards.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/20/2005  2:51 PM
so is this the type of guy we want with pick 8? While there are tough more physical players with much higher upside on the board?

Give me Graham or Granger. Graham is a converted PF with great wing skills. He's super physical on D and could really be an Artest type player. Granger is like a beffy Pippen. We have other huge needs besides center.

Frye is OK, but I would MUCH rather overpay Steven Hunter with the MLE and draft a guy with more upside than take Frye at 8.

Right now I'm more excited about the prospect of IT snagging a sleeper at 30, then I am about pick 8. Heck... 3 months ago FRYE was a good option at 30
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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6/20/2005  2:55 PM
Posted by fishmike:

finesse is OK... Frye has good skills on offense. He's not garbage but he's got legit knocks on him.

7 rebounds in 31 minutes is not impressive. I'm sorry. He got pushed around quite often. He's thin and he doesnt have Camby's athleticism to overcome it.

11/26 W Forest L 63-60 rebs:3
1/29 Wash St L 70-63 rebs:2
1/27 Washington W 91-82 rebs:2
2/26 @Washington L 93-85 rebs:5
3/12 Washington L 81-72 rebs:6

The fact that he struggled so much against Wash a team with no centers is a little scary. Their best weapon is Nate Robinson. I'm not sure they have a guy taller than 6'9 but the kept Frye off the boards.

Will Bynum and Nate Robinson both have a good chance of being drafted in the first round. And Frye averaged 22pts in those two loses. Washington had a really good team. Wake had a good team too. So yeah, he had some horrible rebounding games in college. But he also had some great ones.

No, he doesn't have Camby's athleticism, but I've never compared him to Camby, I used Camby as an example of a player not putting up huge rebounding numbers at school. Richard Jefferson averaged like 11ppg and 3.5rpg at Arizona and averages around 22ppg and 7-8rpg in the NBA.

Frye may be thin, but is he any thinner than Dalembert or Chandler? He can be just as effective as those guys. Now, is that the superstar everyone wants at 8? No, but I wish I could dig up the hundreds of trade proposals everyone put together for Dalembert and Chandler over the last year. There were a lot of them, and most involved giving up this draft pick. Why not just draft the next Chandler or Dalembert who can also score?
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Allanfan20
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6/20/2005  2:56 PM
You think he could fall to 30 and IT expects that, and that's why he's been looking into him so much? Possibly to get him with the 30th pick and not the 8th? I mean, he can't be so stupid and make it as obvious as he has been. Even Layden didn't make things obvious like this, when it came to the draft.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
crzymdups
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6/20/2005  3:02 PM
Posted by fishmike:

so is this the type of guy we want with pick 8? While there are tough more physical players with much higher upside on the board?

Give me Graham or Granger. Graham is a converted PF with great wing skills. He's super physical on D and could really be an Artest type player. Granger is like a beffy Pippen. We have other huge needs besides center.

Frye is OK, but I would MUCH rather overpay Steven Hunter with the MLE and draft a guy with more upside than take Frye at 8.

Right now I'm more excited about the prospect of IT snagging a sleeper at 30, then I am about pick 8. Heck... 3 months ago FRYE was a good option at 30

I actually agree with taking Granger, and possibly Graham over Frye.

But, think if the Toronto trade for Jalen goes down or the Minnesota trade for Wally happens. Then the roster is helliciously unbalanced, and Granger/Graham has the same PT issues that Ariza had this year.

Frye will come in and start.

Sometimes it sucks to fit a need, but sometimes it's very neccessary.
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crzymdups
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6/20/2005  3:03 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

You think he could fall to 30 and IT expects that, and that's why he's been looking into him so much? Possibly to get him with the 30th pick and not the 8th? I mean, he can't be so stupid and make it as obvious as he has been. Even Layden didn't make things obvious like this, when it came to the draft.

If we don't take Frye at 8, GSW is a lock to take him at 9. As many doubters as Frye has here, he has plenty of people who like him around the league.
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fishmike
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6/20/2005  3:18 PM
Why not just draft the next Chandler or Dalembert who can also score
I dont see it... you think he can be that good? I ask because I respect your opinion. Your 100% right about the other guys so thats fair. I just think they were still growing when they were drafted. Frye strikes me as a what you see is what you get.

If we got another pick in a Jalen Rose or Wally trade then your singing a different tune.

I'm treating this arguement assuming everything stays status quo and in that case I'm still focused on BPA. The fact that we need wing players and there are some great ones out there is definatly a factor.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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6/20/2005  3:19 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

You think he could fall to 30 and IT expects that, and that's why he's been looking into him so much? Possibly to get him with the 30th pick and not the 8th? I mean, he can't be so stupid and make it as obvious as he has been. Even Layden didn't make things obvious like this, when it came to the draft.
No// Layden flew to China 1200 times to meet with a player he had a 2.5% chance of drafting.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
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6/20/2005  3:24 PM
Posted by fishmike:
No// Layden flew to China 1200 times to meet with a player he had a 2.5% chance of drafting.
[/quote]

Yes! And then got all downcast when he didn't win the lottery, like his strategy had been foiled. I remember distinctly thinking what in the world is up with this????
nyballer
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6/20/2005  3:28 PM
I go to school in the Pac-10 so I got to see a lot of Frye and Diogu. When Frye came to play Stanford he had good games, and he was guarded by Matt Haryasz (6-11 and pretty good, probably a late 1st round/early 2nd roudn pick in 2006). Diogu is just extremely powerful and can keep a lot of players off the glass - hopefully Frye's added weight will help him there, but Ike is just dominant (unfortunately he is undersized). Washington is a very small team but they were great at rebounding (especially offensive rebounds) - they just crashed the boards. Also Jensen was able to focus primarily on defense since he was only a defensive player. I don't think Frye has the upside of any of the other players before him but chances are he will be better than some of those players. There's a good chance he could be better than Bynum and players like Gerald Green but we might have to accept that we are selecting a Marcus Camby over a potential Paul Pierce/Tracy McGrady/Glen Rice.
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crzymdups
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6/20/2005  3:31 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Why not just draft the next Chandler or Dalembert who can also score
I dont see it... you think he can be that good? I ask because I respect your opinion. Your 100% right about the other guys so thats fair. I just think they were still growing when they were drafted. Frye strikes me as a what you see is what you get.

If we got another pick in a Jalen Rose or Wally trade then your singing a different tune.

I'm treating this arguement assuming everything stays status quo and in that case I'm still focused on BPA. The fact that we need wing players and there are some great ones out there is definatly a factor.

I think Tyson Chandler is a decent projection for Frye. Not sure if he's as athletic as Dalembert, but I think he's a smarter player than Dalembert. Frye is also a much better fit for Stephon on offense. I think his shotblocking and rebounding have a chance to improve from what they were in college.

Now, if Isiah doesn't go out and get Wally or Jalen (both of whom I think are very attainable, and pretty likely Zeke targets), I think you have to take a good long look at Graham and Granger. I think Granger is almost certainly going to Toronto at 7, but Graham should be there at 8. I agree Graham is going to be a tough SOB in the league, and I'd love to add him. If it comes down to Graham or Frye, that's a tough call... if you take Graham you have to be 100% sure you can get Stephen Hunter or Chris Andersen this summer for the MLE. I just worry that if they don't take Frye, Zydrunas is going to be our starting center next year...
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Nalod
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6/20/2005  3:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Allanfan20:

You think he could fall to 30 and IT expects that, and that's why he's been looking into him so much? Possibly to get him with the 30th pick and not the 8th? I mean, he can't be so stupid and make it as obvious as he has been. Even Layden didn't make things obvious like this, when it came to the draft.
No// Layden flew to China 1200 times to meet with a player he had a 2.5% chance of drafting.

Thats a great line! I wonder if we had even a remote chance to trade up? Layden was burning the cablevision card getting some happy ending in China! That was freaking funny!

Hakim was so much better than Ewing in the day and rarely got the Cred for being the top center of his time!
fishmike
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6/20/2005  3:33 PM
good to hear from someone that saw some of the games (live?)
I made a point of saying I didnt think Ike was undersized because of his sick wingspan. His standing reach is only one inch shorter than Frye's (9' and 9'1.5 respectively)
To me thats not much of difference, especially when you consider the base power and build of the two. I would say Ike is more skilled as well.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyballer
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6/20/2005  3:52 PM
Posted by fishmike:

good to hear from someone that saw some of the games (live?)
I made a point of saying I didnt think Ike was undersized because of his sick wingspan. His standing reach is only one inch shorter than Frye's (9' and 9'1.5 respectively)
To me thats not much of difference, especially when you consider the base power and build of the two. I would say Ike is more skilled as well.

yeah i saw them live, and I agree that Ike is more skilled. he reminds me of an elton brand type player especially with that wingspan.
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fishmike
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6/20/2005  4:27 PM
how would you feel about us taking Frye at 8? Ho-hum? Excited? Pissed?

Thanks for the feedback.

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"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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6/20/2005  4:42 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

You think he could fall to 30 and IT expects that, and that's why he's been looking into him so much? Possibly to get him with the 30th pick and not the 8th? I mean, he can't be so stupid and make it as obvious as he has been. Even Layden didn't make things obvious like this, when it came to the draft.
Layden worked out Yao Ming before the lottery. He got it into his head that the Knicks were destined to land the top picks in lottery. I remember he was also thinking about working out Jay Williams. It was funny and sad, on draft nite when the Knicks got their 7th pick. To me that left little doubt who Layden wanted. No surprise he agrees to trade the pick. I think that pretty much counts for announcing to the world who you are going to take.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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Good article about Channing frye
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