Posted by fishmike:

lol... cablevision loves you. Keep believing anything Isiah tells you. I basicly praised everything he did up until now, but the Rose and Taylor trades were weak... plain and simple. Sorry if a roster of 5 PFs all under 6'9 and $110mm of retreads and cast offs on a team playing .400 ball doesnt have me dancing in the streets.

But I'm sure we wil be fine.. Isiah said on the radio that Jackie Butler was going to be the next Shaq so I'm sure we will be winning titles in a couple years. MAn... gotta run, I'm off to MSG to sign up for season ticket!!! Whoo-hoo!

Have fun knocking down your strawmen. I don't think I was exactly dancing in the streets in my last reply. In fact, I acknowledge that the deals were questionable and that their success is largely contingent on what Isiah does this summer. But the word "disaster" implies that nothing good comes out of these trades. Mo Taylor looks like he's already one of the best, if not the best, post up/isolation option we have on offense. Rose doesn't seem to bring anything that JYD already brings, but Isiah got draft picks in that trade, which are inherently unknowns. Let's see what Isiah does with those picks before we write off the Rose trade.

Basically: Yes, these latest trades are questionable, and their sense and success will depend largely on future moves. But no, these trades are certainly not unmitigated disasters. You try to paint me as if I'm the one being overly irrational here, but you're the one who's been using the overly strong words.

We should evaluate Isiah on a higher plane than Layden.

Isiah makes things happen, but we have yet to see any substantial results. His moves are abitious, thus we expect to see resuts right away.

This Nazr/rose trade was about picks.

The Mo T. trade was about KT getting traded. If not by the deadline, then it will happen this summer.

Then we can see if this puts us in the right direction.

This season has been a disaster, this we can almost be certain with. I don't think enough time has elapsed since he has been GM to qualify him a success, yet alone an absolute failure.

Now had Isiah pulled off the Gooden for KT trade THAT would have been something special because you get a 23 year old in his rookie contract, NOT a 27 year old making $9mm that was benched in favor of Weatherspoon.

Stay away from Kwame and Curry, especially now that we can draft a true Center right out of College.....Use our picks wisely. We need to cut cost now, Curry and Kwame will need a new contract if we trade for them...We don't need any more high price players that can't produce consistantly...

Posted by fishmike:
I would say few around here have given him more praise then I have, but these last 2 moves raise a BIG red warning flag to me, and they will hurt us this offseason.

This was a much more reasonable post. Isiah is not above reproach, of course (no one is... not even Jerry West, who hasn't quite been doing a bang up job in Memphis, aside from his choice of coaches).

As to whether these moves will hurt us in the offseason... that remains to be seen. Nazr would have been a valuable chip this summer, no doubt. On the other hand, if Isiah plans on doing an expiring contract trade with TT and/or Penny, he'll probably need to throw in some picks or high value, low contract players. Nazr's contract is reasonable, but not small enough that you could flippantly throw it into a max-type trade without fear of gumming things up too much. So, perhaps selling Nazr for Rose + picks was a necessary move to facilitate a larger TT or Penny deal. We'll see soon enough.

As for the other trade, Baker and Norris both have smaller contracts than Nazr. They may have been valuable in evening out salaries in a TT or Penny deal, and thus losing them is potentially losing some flexibility for trading TT/Penny. But if they were not used in such a deal, of what value would they have been as trading chips? Could we have packaged them together and gotten a player much better than Mo Taylor (who, I repeat, for all his shortcomings, is already giving our offense a nice shot in the arm)? I doubt it. Mo is overpaid, but his contract is only one year longer than Baker/Moochie, and it also does not extend past the albatross Houston/Shandom contractual era. So while his acquisition might contribute to some roster glut, NY's contractual obligation to him is hardly crippling.

Even beyond the picks themselves, these trades might actually increase flexibility for trades, insofar as Isiah can look to trade KT and/or Sweetney without needing to immediately restock the frontcourt. In particular, I expect KT to be shopped heavily, and not necessarily for a frontcourt player either. I would hate to see Sweetney go, but all things considered, he's probably our most valuable trading chip right now. Having a similar player who can pick up the slack in the post is actually a tremendous boost in flexibility for trading Sweets. We all bemoan our lack of a shotblocker, but offense in the post has been a weak point for us this season as well, and lest we forget-- a strong post up option is almost as hard to acquire as a strong shotblocker.

So for now, I'm still taking a mostly wait-and-see attitude. This summer will be Isiah's biggest moment as Knick GM to date. He's had time now to get rid of Layden's dreck and stock up on some more valuable trading assets. What he does this summer will go a long way towards making his long term reputation in NY, as well as justifying all the trades he's made since he's been here. Essentially, it's impossible to fully evaluate Isiah's last two trades without the context of what Isiah does this summer.

In too many ways I think Isiah has taken himself out of many options this offseason by moving all his reasonably priced expiring players. I would say something like Nazr, Vin and Moochie could have gotten us something like Desmond Mason and Calvin Booth. Then you address some real needs and get a great explosive young swing man in Mason.

All these type of trades arent an option because all the deals we have are so high priced. If you take back 2-3 guys for a TT or Penny then you have a huge problem with roster spaces. He just didnt leave himself with a lot of options and my fear is with the insane payroll he will be pressured (understandibly) to field a winning team. Good by Ariza and draft picks, Hello Finely and Stackhouse.

Bonn terrible analogy, saying we got two picks in the first round means nothing, they are in the 27-29 range, not the 21-25, Isiah made a lot of mistakes so far, and one of them was giving the suns a first round pick we allowed them to become one of the best teams in the league and had to give up a pick on top of taking salary and giving them a couple of prospects....

We could have drafted some potential in Josh Smith, or David Harrison, but we were left with ****, Isiah doesn;t get a pass for this deal until he gets a good player

The draft picks are primarily trade assets IMO. Guys like Vujanic, Lampe, and Frank were key components of the Marbury trade. (In fact, the Suns GM called the trade the "Lampe Trade.")A team can expect to get at least as good a player as those 3 with picks in the late first round. The picks should have at least as much value in a trade package as Lampe, Vujanic, and Frank W had.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/07/2005 14:52:45]

Posted by newyorknewyork:


But I feel there are options out there that can makes us a real competitive team and take us over the mediocracy level. This team needs 2 long range shooters and 2 shot blockers.

I'd be happy with 1 of each.

When you trade what you traded for Marbury talent wise. And you trade what you traded for Crawford talent wise most expect more than what the results have been.

I guess Houston & TT kinda offset that.

Has anyone bothered to mention that Mo Taylor is 6'9 and just 29 years old?

Has anyone mentioned he's got inside post up game we desperately need and shooting 70% from the field as a Knick?

Has anyone thought that he could find a basketball home in New York away from the annointed Jeff Van Gundy?

Nah, lets talk about Mo Taylor's salary instead.

It's a work in PROGRESS people. For all his bleatings about Isiah as a disaster even fish.mike cannnot provide one single example of an NBA franchise going from the outhouse to the penthouse in one season.

Or can he?