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jackie butler was a FREE first round pick
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fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:16 PM
fair enough... I just dont buy the economics of it, I think the Webber deal or non deal is a clear indication. In a lot of ways Webber could have accelerated a rebuilding by making a 3 for one trade.

He can trust Isiah all he wants but when the guy you placed in charge shows a frivelous disregard for your assets you have to start worrying or you put a cap on what he can and cant do. Either way it hurts us moving forward.

Maybe this group of players does what Seatle did this year. The caliber of talent is comparable, but if they dont our flexibility is really hurt.

I'm not saying there is no hope or Isiah has ruined us. Overall I like most of what he's done, but he's backing himself into a corner here.

Right now he better hope some team w/ cap space is willing to take a veteran player for a future 2nd rounder or something like the Nets did with Kittles when they dumped him on the Clippers.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:19 PM
exactly.. Look at how Dallas as used their ability to operate at high cost. They have an $80mm payroll but are perenial contenders. On top of that they have more young talent then most expansion teams have with Josh Howard, Daniels, Harris and the 2 centers from Africa/Russia.

We have tons of bad contracts and little to no flexibility. Its like night and day.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  12:20 PM
I agree Fish. I don't think we're ever going to agree on the financial situation but thats okay. Theres alot of talent on the team and adding the right player to this team in the summer or on draft day could really show that Isiah knew what he was doing all along. In hindsight, I think we should all be happy Isiah didn't get Webber, the guy just looks like a gimp out there and 2 gimpy 100 million dollar knees on the roster is not something any team wants.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

Nalod... dont try to confuse these people with logic.
Getting a little arrogant with people you disagree with? That's not like you fish.

There's no shred of evidence that the Knicks are even remotely near the point you're talking about where they can't afford to take back more bad contracts in Marbury type deals. We've just seen evidence confirming the exact opposite (the two recent deals). Now the Knicks have about the same trade assets as they did when they pulled off the Marbury trade and should be able to do something pretty big this summer.
I generally wouldnt bother to respond but then why didnt Isiah even call about Webber?

There was no name calling. Saying that wasting huge amounts of money will no way impact how a business is run IS NOT LOGICAL. Sorry, I dont know any softer way to respond.

Why would Isiah be willing to pay $10mm to Dampier a career underachiever on bad teams but not even call Webber, a guy you yourself was touting along with his 20/10/6. No shred of evidence indeed.
The fact that the Knicks took back *other* bad contracts on the trade deadline day instead of Webber's indicates that the Knicks are concerned about salaries? What kind of logic is that? Fish logic? Maybe he wasn't interested in Webber because of his knee (not his contract). We'll never know. I don't subscribe to Fish logic. I'm proud of that. Fish logic is thinking that a team that has let zero expiring contracts expire and has always used them in deals taking back good players and bad contracts is suddenly going to become concerned about salaries. I would call that *not* learning from past experiences. We've seen what the Knicks have done in the past and are doing in the present with their expiring contracts and we've seen no evidence that they're going to do anything differently. You can use all caps if you want to. That doesn't make it suddenly logical. Sorry I can't find a softer way to put that either.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/04/2005 12:33:59]
gunsnewing
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3/4/2005  12:29 PM
I agree with nyk4ever or anyone who gets the picture. These trades are about getting 2 1st round draft picks and more tradeable contracts. And for the Zillionth time, who cares when taylor's contract expires as long as it expires by 2008 and it expires after 2007!! so if you do the math 2007-2005 = 2yrs! And again a $10mil contract is a lot more valuable especially when a player has talents than Baker's and Moochie's $6mil! When you consider that guys like adonal folye get 9mil a year! Don't bring up the Crawford trade either becuase we got extremely lucky there because Chicag wanted him outin the worst way! You want to bank on Baker and moochie getting us another crawford??! Then name a player!

What is $6mil going to get us? another veteran/mediocre player. We have too many of those! We need stars! Taylor's contract can get you a star at the 2007 trading deadline!

And don't worry about the glut at PF THIS YEAR! like someone said some of them will be gone in the offseason and at next year's deadline whih is another good reason to add tradeable contracts.

I think the problem is you want to cut the down and rebuild like the clippers and hawks and even the bulls. With the situation layden put us in it would take at least 7-10years to rebuild this thing and that would never happen in New York and if you think it can keep dreaming! you'll never be happy!

Isiah has done a great job getting rid of guys no one wants like spoon, andersno,eisely etc. Now there's just one more left to get rid of and thats Allan Houston's contract. His departure will be the ultimate consolation prize! Thank Scott Layden for that one! Yeah Isiah made some mistakes, every GM does! like hiring lenny and the Nazr trade but he got rid of them instead of telling you how happy he is with Lenny and the play of Nazr.

Why is it so hard to wait 2 more years til Houston's contract expires. We've already waited 6 years since 99 whats 2 more years! This mess was created when Layden traded Ewing instead of letting his contract come off the books. We would've been a good team a lot sooner if that happened! And on top of that he gave Houston 100mil for 7 years! Slowly but surely Isiah is getting us out of this mess!
fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:29 PM
but if he doesnt play well its Iverson's fault... lol

nyk4ever, fair enough and I'm hoping for exactly the same thing. The only downside (and what started this in the first place) is I would LOVE to have our draft picks and Jackie Butler on the end of the bench. The 9,10,11 and 12 guys on the bench. Now those roster spots will be full of guys tough to move because they have long term deals.

I'm not going to cry about it but it does drag out the rebuilding process and the development of these guys. This has been my big issue with a guy like Mo Taylor all along. We could have just sat Vin and Mooch on IR all year and if nothing happened at the deadline moved them. We dont really have that luxury with a guy like Tayor (see above arguement).

I think our best option is moving a guy like Taylor to the Clippers for a future "conditional" #2
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

but if he doesnt play well its Iverson's fault... lol
lol... If he doesn't play well, then it depends on whether the knee or Iverson's 30 shots per game are the cause.
fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:34 PM
Guns, Bonnie and all others that get it... scroll up and answer my question. A or B. Just curious.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:35 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Guns, Bonnie and all others that get it... scroll up and answer my question. A or B. Just curious.
I'll answer your question if you *ever* answer mine about who was better: Iverson or Jordan?
Nalod
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3/4/2005  12:36 PM
Taylor trade did not yield us any picks! We could have bought out mooch for very little money to open up a spot.

I like the Rose deal for the picks, and hes a good player.
Nalod
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3/4/2005  12:37 PM
[You guys are giving Fish some great advice.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/04/2005 11:02:21]

There is your illogical snit that started it.
gunsnewing
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3/4/2005  12:38 PM
I dont get what fish is saying when he says we traded 2 small contracts that expire this year for longer contracts. it not like Baker and Moochie contracts expiring is getting us under the cap! Now H20's contract will get us a lot closer! so whats wrong with adding tradeable contracts as long as they expire no later than 2008! which is what is doing because he knows they won't have any flexibilty until H20 is off the books!


what exactly is Fish saying? Baker and moochie is not going to get us under the cap? And they're not going to save Dolan that much money!
fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:39 PM
Nalod he didnt? That sucks then...
explain to me the snit vomit thing means again? I wasnt paying attention but I think I might know what your talking about
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  12:41 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Taylor trade did not yield us any picks! We could have bought out mooch for very little money to open up a spot.

I like the Rose deal for the picks, and hes a good player.

I'm just curious because you and Fish seem to think the same way on the Taylor deal. You don't think that when Taylors contract in the final year will be much more valuable to Isiah then Vin and Moochies contract? I personally agree with Guns since the Taylor contract is larger that it will allow us to trade his expiring contract for a much better player. Am I that wrong in thinking that?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:44 PM
Guns... stay with me on this. Its not about the cap, its about the player or players and roster spaces. With Moochie and Baker expiring we could have just stuck them on IR or waived one or both. My knock on Mo Taylor is his contract and status take those options away. So what good is adding young players like Butler or these 3 draft picks we have if they are stuck and will never get off IR (or even on the 15 man roster) because we have too many guys making $8 and $9mm ahead of them.

Thats all... we just have too many guys with longer contracts and bad deals. If we want to energize this team with young talent like the Bulls did we will have to find some contructive way to undo some of Isiahs deals dump a couple of these guys.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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3/4/2005  12:47 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I agree Fish. I don't think we're ever going to agree on the financial situation but thats okay. Theres alot of talent on the team and adding the right player to this team in the summer or on draft day could really show that Isiah knew what he was doing all along. In hindsight, I think we should all be happy Isiah didn't get Webber, the guy just looks like a gimp out there and 2 gimpy 100 million dollar knees on the roster is not something any team wants.

agree 100% so glad we didn't get Webber right now. and his contract is a year longer then Houston. If we got webber than you could kill Isiah because his contract is one year longer than H20's. Not only would we have to wait for a 35 year old H20 to come off the books but we'll have to wait for 35 year old Webber to come off the books a year after! Imagine having two 35 year old gimps on the team and hoping that they retire so we don't have to wait until 2008 to start rebuilding. isiah's plan is a lot better because it makes Allan Houston's expiring contract the cut-off point. The only way Isiah will add payroll is if he's getting player on Marbury's level back. Not Shandon & Eisely. I think the route Isiah is taking is a lot better. Since 7-8million dollar contracts are a lot more moveable then $20mil contracts!

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/04/2005 12:52:20]
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:47 PM
Posted by Nalod:
[You guys are giving Fish some great advice.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/04/2005 11:02:21]

There is your illogical snit that started it.
Complimenting someone is snitty? I don't get it but sorry if that bothered you or Fish
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:49 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Nalod:

Taylor trade did not yield us any picks! We could have bought out mooch for very little money to open up a spot.

I like the Rose deal for the picks, and hes a good player.

I'm just curious because you and Fish seem to think the same way on the Taylor deal. You don't think that when Taylors contract in the final year will be much more valuable to Isiah then Vin and Moochies contract? I personally agree with Guns since the Taylor contract is larger that it will allow us to trade his expiring contract for a much better player. Am I that wrong in thinking that?
I think that's what Isiah's thinking was. I would have preferred to see if we could get a better deal first for Vin and Moochie next year and if we couldn't, then using that reasoning above, I would have done the Taylor deal.
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  12:50 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Nalod he didnt? That sucks then...
explain to me the snit vomit thing means again? I wasnt paying attention but I think I might know what your talking about
It looks like Nalod and Fish are on one side and NYK4, Guns, and Pharezone are on the other. I'm glad I'm not on the fish logic side.
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  12:52 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Guns... stay with me on this. Its not about the cap, its about the player or players and roster spaces. With Moochie and Baker expiring we could have just stuck them on IR or waived one or both. My knock on Mo Taylor is his contract and status take those options away. So what good is adding young players like Butler or these 3 draft picks we have if they are stuck and will never get off IR (or even on the 15 man roster) because we have too many guys making $8 and $9mm ahead of them.

Thats all... we just have too many guys with longer contracts and bad deals. If we want to energize this team with young talent like the Bulls did we will have to find some contructive way to undo some of Isiahs deals dump a couple of these guys.

I know you mean this for Guns but I want to take a crack out it too As of right now the Knicks have 2 contracts that will be entering the final year, this summer and Bruno's contract will be done as well, I dont know if Isiah plans on resinging him but for now we'll say he doesnt. Now say Isiah drafts 2 nice rookies whom we're all happy with. If these rookie that we like so much, make such a impact in the summer then Isiah will not hesitate to throw someone like Mo T on the IR, hes done it before, see Shandon Anderson. Eventually Shandon had enough and requested a buyout. I know you dont like the idea of the buying out Fish but the Shandon probably quickly went away. Couple that with the expiring contracts of TT and Penny that I can say I'm almost 100% sure will not stay with the Knicks past next Febs trade deadline or maybe even this summer. I know we are going to add players but say the expiring contracts get us a nice low post prescence. If that happens as much I hate to see him go then Kurt Thomas will be traded and probably for a draft pick. All those things to me atleast seem to signify open roster spots.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 03/04/2005 12:55:35]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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