That's not the first time I've heard that "Trade a draft pick for Larry Brown comment." Where are you guys getting that idea from? Doing that would be one of the worst mistakes in franchise history. Keep Herb right now. He's fine. We need that draft pick beyond belief.

Good thread.

As far as Isiah's plan goes: there's a pretty good quote by Dwight D. Eisenhower, "Plans are nothing, planning is everything." For those that don't get it, ask me and I'll explain.

As far as blowing it up and grabbing top picks goes, see: The Bulls, The Warriors, The Hawks, The Nuggets, The Clippers, etc. Some teams have finally made it out after many years (The Bulls), some teams thought they were out but are heading back in (The Nuggets) some teams just can't make it happen no matter how much cap room and top picks they compile (The Clippers).

For those that use the Heat and the Spurs as examples: both these teams were extremely lucky during their quick rebuild period. If David Robinson does not miss an entire season, Tim Duncan is a Celtic. If Anthony Johnson's agent remembers to submit the forms to execute his client's player option, Miami does not sign Odom, does not trade for Shaq and is not at the top of the East.

For those that constantly claim you have to start with a big man first and then build around him: the Minnesota T-Wolves have KG, but for the most part they've been a failure over the past 8 seasons. KG is loved universally and is the type of player everybody here would love on the Knicks, but building around him hasn't exactly been successful either. One might even say that they are mired in the same "terminal mediocrity" that we are destined for.

So then what? ...I don't know and neither do any of you.

In general terms, there seems to be two types of people on this board: the eternal optimists and the perpetual whiners. I don't mind the optimists so much because they tend to think things will just work out or that we'll finally strike that lucky break that most successful teams need to go over the top. The whiners are quite annoying, because for the most part: I hate listening to whining. The whiners seem like think they know everything and that they have all the answers. They benefit from hindsight and put the worst possible spin on everything hoping for a plethora of "I told you so's" when things go predictably wrong. It's easy to predict failure in this leaugue: 29 teams fail every year and only one truly succeeds.

I guess I'd have to call myself an optimist. No matter what happens, I'm keeping positive with the hopes that positivity might swing that elusive X-factor, luck, back in the Knicks favor. We need a lot of luck, guys. I don't recall any of the super-NBA-exec, flavors of the month (West, Popovich, Dumars), turning around a team in a year or two without it. So far we've had none, but I've got my fingers crossed...

[Edited by - eViL on 02/27/2005 16:19:59]

Posted by misterearl:

New York - how much so-called "patience" do you generously allow any General Manager or President of Operations to change the culture of a franchise?

"We better see big results next season."

We Better? We who? You and the lynchmob?

What do you consider "big" results?

My patience isn't gone yet. But that Taylor move definatly cut it shorter than it once was. That move was just horrible. And if he didn't land 2 picks in the Rose deal I think I would have thrown up. I could take adding Penny because it was for Marbury. I could take adding JYD because it was for Crawford. I could take Rose because it was for 2 draft picks. But Taylor adds a 5th pf, value was as low as Baker & Norris, and has 2yrs after this one left on a ugly contract. Yet we couldn't get a pick for him. We even gave a 2nd rder. When you make moves like that results better follow or he will continue to get blasted.

I still respect Isiah for taking the challenge of being our GM even though we have this crazy media, we were depending on Dice knee to save us, and we were in salary cap hell. When there isn't many who would have.

Getting out of the first rd is the lowest result im looking for next season.

Posted by LongIslandKnicksFan:

If Knicks make the playoffs, means more money in Dolan's pockets, and 0-4 in the first round. I'd rather get young players with high picks and player the young kids.

Making the playoffs over the Sixers and Celtics and even NJ & Toronto is a long shot. The important thing is that we see good things from our young core players

I think that Zeke is acquiring players with trade value....the Houston deal to me was one of those deals you look at and say, eh....whatever, we made a trade.....I still think that the Houston trade was made with an eye towards obtaining Gooden as was reported in the papers, and Zeke got burned. As soon as my brother called and told me about these two trades (I was at work) the first thing I told him was to look for a trade with KT going somewhere, swear to God, no BS.

He obtains Gooden, he is able to move Sweets and maybe our first round pick on draft day for the #1 pick, where we can grab Bogut and we have a lineup of

Bogut/Taylor (?)
Gooden/Rose
Ariza/TT/JYD
Craw/Newble/(Ariza)(?)
Marbury/Penny

That is just a possible plan that makes sense. However even w/o a Gooden trade, he still acquired a big body at 27 who has more talent than Baker and Moochie combined. Let Taylor work with Aguirre and see where we are at. I don't think he acquired Taylor to be a starter at all, and it's not like we traded Sweets and Ariza for Taylor, we traded 2 guys on the wrong side of 30 who got no burn and Baker was just a waste, to be bluntly honest.

Regarding the contract issue, I look at his contract and it is bad, but it is not horrible, IMO. He has the extra year which sucks, but if he can come of the bench and average 13 and 6 and provide a post presence, he is worth it (you realize 13 and 6 is more than TT is averaging and he is making almost double what Taylor is making!)...And once again, if we traded KT for Gooden, noone would be worrying about that extra year.

On a side not you realize KT's value now? We would have been able to obtain Gooden AND Newble? Glad we didn't trade him for Malik Rose last year, but I tell you what, I bet KT goes (possibly to the Cavs for Gooden after the season if the Knicks can revive a deal and maybe send come cash to Cleveland) this summer and we are able to get alot more than anyone thought we could get for him.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 02/28/2005 08:47:16]

Posted by misterearl:

Hold Up

i There is a new grit, a new aura about the Knicks the past few days since Isiah Thomas' trading-deadline shakeup, as they are on their first winning streak since late December.

- Marc Berman

Wow. We beat a just above .500 Pacers, a undermanned Sixers and the Bobcats and we're getting excited? How about we beat one good team before we get too enthusiastic here.

we're better than a lottery team, but we are not an elite team.

We can't beat san antonio or detroit, but we can take the heat to overtime and beat up on 8th seeded teams and below.

Before the season we were hoping to make it to the second round...if we continue with the current level of play, we will make it to the second round.

That's all the fans are saying...first round last year, second round this year, contender after trading deadline next year.

We get to the finals the next year, and win it all the following year.

The same thing isiah did when he was at detroit, started with the worst team in the league, and built into a contender revolving supporting cast and philosophies.

That's all we're saying...January showed me a lot about the knicks...they had a ton of late game collapses, which should not happen with the professional addition of Rose.

We are still moving in the right direction, and that is what is important.

13 & 6 off the bench? Taylor would be lucky o average the 7 & 4 he's currently averaging right now wit this glut of PFs.

"13 & 6 off the bench? Taylor would be lucky o average the 7 & 4 he's currently averaging right now wit this glut of PFs."

gunsewing - competition is positively great for business

Players crave minutes. Forget the salaries. You don't get minutes... you can suddenly become obsolete. On the Knicks you gotta earn frontcourt minutes. Even Jackie Butler will immediately learn that he better bust his butt to play. Practice will harken back to the days of Mase versus Xavier McDaniel as the fights flare up and tempers bubble over. That is a good thing. Welcome back Knicks basketball

Well?

Sounds like a plan to me. Herb allows aufditions with his long rotations and the best five get the lion shares of time. Herb plays no favorites. He's done a remarkable job under the circumstances of holding a veteran team together during a losing stretch. That tells me he's already earned the respect of his squad.

What Solace, Are you pining away for Vin Baker already?

Mo Taylor, once he is convinced that long-time associate Isiah has his back, could be finally convinced to work under Mark Aguirre to be the best that he can be. Sometimes players respond well to a change of leadership and scenery.... and sometimes they don't.

One thing is certain.

He sucks. He sits.

What's the problem?