Nalod wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:Rose always keeps his pots simmering on the stove longer than anyone else

It is part of the reason why he was able to succeed at this

He waited patiently until Minny was in a bind and he got KAT for freaking Julius Randle (and Devo).

He held on until TO had to decide on whether to give OG big money and he got him for RJ and Quickley.

Both times he got one superior player for two lesser players.

Now that he has a stack of superior players, he has to play it just right to not put himself into the same position as the teams he poached OG and KAT from.

And, no, I don't think the imperative to stay under the 2nd Apron is strictly a Dolan edict.

Read the tea leaves. Dolan may want to keep those costs down as well, but he is also running cover for Rose and taking any heat for this.

Rose is not going to box himself in and lose all flexibility for multiple years. That's not how he operates.

So, yes, he'll put KAT and Hart on ice and if they don't like it that's their problem. Rose is going to wait as long as he needs to.

One of the reasons the players will tolerate waiting longer is they already have the confidence that the FO knows how to assemble a winning team. Therefore, they know whatever they get offered will likely be the maximum the FO feels they can give while maintaining some future flexibility.

IOW, it's not just about money, it's strategic, and even if they don't get every penny they want, they still have to respect Rose and his staff for their approach to contracts.

Just be thankful Rose doesn't have to deal with a myopic money-first player like Melo. I think both KAT and Hart will at the very least consider taking less to keep the starting unit intact.

And part of waiting is seeing how the new season unfolds and who is stepping up, who is exceeding or disappointing expections, because long-term planning means more than your starting unit, it's the whole team.

If a player breaks out, that changes the equation. How a player like Diawara progresses matters. A player like that who starts to project as a future starter can change plans that stretch several years ahead. If he flops this season, that changes projections too.

I don't suggest we reboot, I pretty much trying to look at all angles. "Pragmatic" said I.
You make a good point about "patience". And lets put it this way, there are moving pieces that will fall into place that effect the chessboard. How players come out of the gate and Diawra could make Josh obsolete. Leon is publically putting the onus on the players. Being over the second apron is not about money, its about getting boxed in.

What does a compromise look like?
And what is realistic from eatch point of view. Fair market for KAT? What teams would make it worth his while?
Not saing Leon is pulling some Yodi mind tricks.

The whole “players being selfish” when it comes to players wanting market salaries is often fan sided wishes for others to do what most would not for their own fandoms benefit. Sports are a business, fans, owners just don’t agree when it affects their interest. I personally don’t think players are being selfish when wanting the highest income. Last I checked, fans were not offering to kick in for salaries nor where owners like Dolan, who just saw his business value increase exponentially, willing to give some of it back to the players. And why should he, it’s a business and if he can replace guys with lower contracts, you do it. But let’s stop with the selfish talk.

I think Rose has proven he knows best. He has also proven that the right piece is not always the most expensive one. Think most can agree that despite our love for Josh, there are many players out there that can be hustle guys and hit some threes. Despite how much we all love how KATs addition brought us our first chip in many years, a defense stretching big can be obtained as well.
Think what I like the best about Rose, is that he was able to not only find talented players but players that fit well together and had chemistry. Think he will do no different going forward.
Despite the salary restrictions.

Papabear:

Thibs was "family" too! He got fired and sent home with a nice bag. Leon got that correct. Can't say I was for it, but "I understand".
Josh is family. Lets just say Leon ran this team back all but Mitch. So they have a chance to repeat.
They all here now. Towns can opt in and make 61mm! Deuce? He got good money and an opportunity. He'll likey be dealt or expire but it happens.
Josh? Its on him to set his salary going forward. Maybe we let him walk? Hate that too, but maybe Diawra has a say in that.

As for NBA, Knicks gave league a huge ratings boost. Can we all agree at least that it serves the league no benefit to keep the knicks down? The notion league did not like "Us" was no self serving.
Ratings made a huge comeback.

Leon and Co. got us relevent again!

4 years is light years in the NBA. The Warriors won a title 4 years ago. They are completely old and washed now. I wouldn't be totally shocked if in his mind, this is the last year of this run if these guys don't want to take big discounts. I'm not convinced he's gung-ho on running the same roster until they are 36 years old.

My personal stance is that I'd rather get these guys on reasonable deals and keep it going. But Leon has had tremendous foresight and plenty of teams have demonstrated in recent years that handing out big deals to everyone in the euphoria after a chip often sets you back a long time.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:Rose always keeps his pots simmering on the stove longer than anyone else

It is part of the reason why he was able to succeed at this

He waited patiently until Minny was in a bind and he got KAT for freaking Julius Randle (and Devo).

He held on until TO had to decide on whether to give OG big money and he got him for RJ and Quickley.

Both times he got one superior player for two lesser players.

Now that he has a stack of superior players, he has to play it just right to not put himself into the same position as the teams he poached OG and KAT from.

And, no, I don't think the imperative to stay under the 2nd Apron is strictly a Dolan edict.

Read the tea leaves. Dolan may want to keep those costs down as well, but he is also running cover for Rose and taking any heat for this.

Rose is not going to box himself in and lose all flexibility for multiple years. That's not how he operates.

So, yes, he'll put KAT and Hart on ice and if they don't like it that's their problem. Rose is going to wait as long as he needs to.

One of the reasons the players will tolerate waiting longer is they already have the confidence that the FO knows how to assemble a winning team. Therefore, they know whatever they get offered will likely be the maximum the FO feels they can give while maintaining some future flexibility.

IOW, it's not just about money, it's strategic, and even if they don't get every penny they want, they still have to respect Rose and his staff for their approach to contracts.

Just be thankful Rose doesn't have to deal with a myopic money-first player like Melo. I think both KAT and Hart will at the very least consider taking less to keep the starting unit intact.

And part of waiting is seeing how the new season unfolds and who is stepping up, who is exceeding or disappointing expections, because long-term planning means more than your starting unit, it's the whole team.

If a player breaks out, that changes the equation. How a player like Diawara progresses matters. A player like that who starts to project as a future starter can change plans that stretch several years ahead. If he flops this season, that changes projections too.

I don't suggest we reboot, I pretty much trying to look at all angles. "Pragmatic" said I.
You make a good point about "patience". And lets put it this way, there are moving pieces that will fall into place that effect the chessboard. How players come out of the gate and Diawra could make Josh obsolete. Leon is publically putting the onus on the players. Being over the second apron is not about money, its about getting boxed in.

What does a compromise look like?
And what is realistic from eatch point of view. Fair market for KAT? What teams would make it worth his while?
Not saing Leon is pulling some Yodi mind tricks.

The whole “players being selfish” when it comes to players wanting market salaries is often fan sided wishes for others to do what most would not for their own fandoms benefit. Sports are a business, fans, owners just don’t agree when it affects their interest. I personally don’t think players are being selfish when wanting the highest income. Last I checked, fans were not offering to kick in for salaries nor where owners like Dolan, who just saw his business value increase exponentially, willing to give some of it back to the players. And why should he, it’s a business and if he can replace guys with lower contracts, you do it. But let’s stop with the selfish talk.

I think Rose has proven he knows best. He has also proven that the right piece is not always the most expensive one. Think most can agree that despite our love for Josh, there are many players out there that can be hustle guys and hit some threes. Despite how much we all love how KATs addition brought us our first chip in many years, a defense stretching big can be obtained as well.
Think what I like the best about Rose, is that he was able to not only find talented players but players that fit well together and had chemistry. Think he will do no different going forward.
Despite the salary restrictions.

I mostly agree with you.

One thing I am considering and working on mathematically is a metric for team-centric payroll. Assume we have a legitimate interest in remaining under the 2nd apron. Let’s use $220mm for short. Assume we have 10 rotation players and 5 developmental prospects / vet mins. Backing out 12mm for the bottom 5 “mins”, you have 208mm to fill 10 roster spots.

Now, as a free agent, the player decides what team they want to play for.

63mm super max seems like the right value for a player? Ok, you now have 145mm left for 9 players.

You want to play with 4 vet players that make the right moves, do the work? 38mm each and you have 5 more min players.

You have 5 players making roughly 38mm and 10 making the min.

So, OG get 45m Josh gets 20m.

I don’t think many people doubt KAT can get 63 on the open market.

The question is, who else does he want to play with.

These max contracts don’t leave much room for much else.

Brunson says, I’ll take 35mm a year for 3 years. I want to play with Josh and Mikal. OG says 45mm sounds good to me. KAT wants more than 40-50, we have no bench. No upward mobility for anyone else.

I’m not saying he’s wrong for wanting it. But if he wants Brunson, Hart, Bridges and OG as teammates, they cant all get 40mm plus and have a bench with anything other than vet mins and rookie scale contracts.

The math-ing is a metric that establishes salary vs apron vs contribution win shares. With usage, efficiency and defensive value added in.

But the short answer is, I don’t think players are “worth” max contracts unless they are elite on both sides of the ball. Doesn’t mean a different team won’t pay them. Just that the cost will need to be covered elsewhere. A team like CHA with yoots keeping average salary player down could easily give him a max contract. Maybe ATL could as well.

It’s the new apron math - you can’t stay together AND all get paid

He no doubt has lived up to his contract thus far but it was not always so. This new contract is about the future.
I believe to extend he has to opt in. So the 200 is now 261 over 5 years. The 61 in his mind is his. I get that.
I won't judge these guys on being greedy or not. Fans want chips and don't care about owners or the players financial situations.

Josh? I never want josh to leave as a fan. Or any of our core for that matter. But it will happen. For now we are running it back and we'll have hindsight to sort it all out in time.

Might be nice to win a preseason game? Eh?

BlueKnickers wrote:If KAT wants to hold out for a super max he will be playing for another team within the year.

The organization won a championship by being very cap savvy and they are not going to change that now for KAT.

Brunson set the example. Bridges complied. Hart will too. If KAT wants to collect every penny, he's fcking gone.

Not only do I agree with your post, I agree with the rationale behind it. If JB can sacrifice for this team, KAT can too. If not, Leon will find someone else who is hungry.