We are missing a #2

Randle and RJ are 3rd option.

Trade one of our 3rd options plus picks, cash, players, etc. for a true #2 option.

In the playoffs when the season was in jeopardy, Brunson stepped up and the other 2 stepped down. Thibs fell back with rotation or was it the injuries like IQ that put thibs in a bind.

blkexec wrote:I figured out the problem. And it was right there in our face the entire time. The problem is we only see it now because of the Brunson affect. But now it’s clear what we are missing.

We are missing a #2

Randle and RJ are 3rd option.

Trade one of our 3rd options plus picks, cash, players, etc. for a true #2 option.

In the playoffs when the season was in jeopardy, Brunson stepped up and the other 2 stepped down. Thibs fell back with rotation or was it the injuries like IQ that put thibs in a bind.

I can buy that for Randle, at least to the extent that at his best, he's a #1 option - he can carry a team for stretches, though he's shown in tough playoff situations where defenses are keyed on him, he looks like more of a 3rd option and maybe looking at him as the #1 option is too much of a burden. And that's okay.

For RJ, to this point in his career, you're probably right, but age 22. But I think we saw him go through some serious life experience.

I was looking back at Jayson Tatum at age 22 (2020-2021 season). His team lost 4-1 to the Nets in the 1st round of the playoffs. He did not play great to start the series, going 6/20 then 3/12 from the field. Then in games 3-5, he exploded for 50, 40, and 32 points. Those were big growth games for him.

RJ didn't end the season with a good game, but he had enough good games in between that I think he got enough taste of success that can carry over to next year and beyond. I don't know if that would elevate him to a legit #1 or #2 scorer, but we saw something happen.

We also have the curious case of Quickley - who, for the last month of the season, had us thinking he was the second coming of Steph Curry, with unlimited range + the yoyo dribble through traffic. Then sunk like a brick in the playoffs. He'll especially have something to prove in a contract year.

Lastly, there's Grimes, who at times showed shades of Klay Thompson. He owned summer league and looks ripe to take another step next season.

Can any of these guys grow a bit and into the #2 role in a playoff series?

When I watched Jules take a free throw in the 4th quarter, Randle looked like he wanted to be anywhere but in that spot. Not fear. I doubt 3 people would want to meet Jules in a dark alley. It was the look of someone who couldnt handle the weight of the moment. Which pretty much describes Randle's career, in those high pressure situations.

Finding a bigger star than Randle, who can handle crunch time situations could work. But I believe it would affect depth. We would miss Randle's all star production in the regular season if he were moved. But there is no guarantee that Randle would contribute as a third option in the playoffs.

We wont get a star back for Randle, not now. But a quality role player, good enough to start, a bench player, and or picks, could still work out well. And more doable than trading for elite talent.

Obi showed at the end of the season, and early in the playoffs, that he is good enough to start somewhere. He had that late season turnaround with very little PT. As a starter, he might show more of a well rounded game. His D needs work. So I would understand if he's moved in a deal for a star, or better defender.

I dont believe Grimes should be penciled in as starter, or benched, without seeing how he plays in preseason. See if he shows the midrange game he's be lacking. I was afraid it would be an issue in the playoffs. If not, start IQ, and have the kid from Europe play backup PG.

Will just repeat what I said about IQ. He has been a slow learner. I would make a good deal before he figures things out in the postseason. Very confident he will. It would also make IQ's contract desireable if he does level up. In a deal for an elite player.

I agree with those who say we should make a run at KP. He owned up to his immaturity. Im not saying he will play for nothing. But maybe after his max deal. Playing in MSG again (with Brunson) might be appealing.

Mitch-you have to go back to Brunson, and the fact that they developed zero chemistry over the course of the regular season and the playoffs. Which is why I would like the FO to talk to KP. If Mitch stays, they have to work on their two man game, or its going to limit the team's potential IMO.

RJ leveled up later than I thought he would from his rookie season, and earlier than I thought this season. Weird. I hope he is brought back. Had a bad game 6, but he was instrumental in getting us there.

Hope Hart is brought back, with a team friendly contract.

Glad we have iHart under contract for another year.

Other than that, we have to see which NBA players arent being brought back, want to play for another team. Im glad we have an FO who knows what they're doing.

The key decision is determining whether we think Mitch/Randle/RJ/Grimes/Brunson + Hartenstein/Obi/Hart/Quickley is a winning formula (assuming young player growth) or whether we need to disrupt the 9-player core. (McBride, our young and emerging Marcus Smart-like player, was already bumped out by Hart... and Hart also took away time from Obi/RJ/Grimes)

I don't think the Knicks really have to make a big move and add a new player. I think our young players had a master class in playoff intensity - saw what trickery battle-scarred veterans and guys fighting for contracts do. Lots of lessons learned in 6 hard fought games against the Heat to be incorporated into their own games.

For next season, we have a number of considerations:
* Extend Quickley.
* See if Obi wants to stick around for a price that makes sense for us. Otherwise Obi becomes trade bait, perhaps even for a 1st rounder. In his time with us, he hasn't really shown he can create his own shot. He's the sort of player that can punish and completely demoralize other teams when their defense breaks down (with transition buckets and alley-oops), but in half court D, he's not much more than a spot of shooter.
* Re-sign Hartenstein (we assume he'll decline his player option but will be open to a slightly higher annual value contract with more years)
* Sign Hart to a multi-year deal. Maybe he deserves the money that Fournier gets, I don't know, I'll leave that up to the team.
* You can keep or lose Rose and Fournier. Almost doesn't matter since we assume they're out of the rotation.

A few targets for us:
* Olynyk - as an alternative to Obi and even Hartenstein. Legit 3pt big is an even better playmaker than Hartenstein, though less of a defender. Crafty, nasty, all sorts of winning value.
* KAT - a bit of a pipe dream (for a Randle-based trade). This would be a win-win, to be honest. Randle's a better fit with Gobert. KAT has positional versatility.
* KP - I don't particularly like this, given KP's inability to stay healthy, especially late in the season - he's a major risk for availability during the playoffs. But he has played with Brunson before. As a PF (replacing Randle) he's a good all-around offensive player that can create his own shot and a shot blocker. He is not mobile enough to rotate as a defender - at least not without being a major injury risk. Maybe he's a better fit than Randle if you envision RJ being ready to take on a big role.

blkexec wrote:If thibs is coming back, the FO needs to provide thibs with star players who are emotionally mature and excell under playoff pressure. Or someone battle tested. Not sure how this FO improves this team without moving 1 of the 3.

Thibs - not going anywhere. Especially with the growth of the team under thibs.
RJ - “he’s only 22” going on “he’s only 23”. He has shown progress but still needs work with consistency.
Randle - Easy target for fans due to him leaving his emotions on his sleeve. But will he bring us a chip? Or just regular season teasers.

If we don’t trade Randle and keep this 3 next season, then the changes must occur to the roll players starting with the DNP crew in EF and Rose. Add in Obi and IQ who I’m sure team are calling about. Or maybe it’s grimes they can use to fetch someone good. Gotta sacrifice somewhere. Gotta pay to play.

Sometimes this lack of trust by thibs can hurt players value or a smart gm who understands thibs may look at this roster and say, under a different coach certain players will shine like Obi, iq and grimes.

But thibs could use a new voice he can trust on that coaching staff that complements thibs and his slow to adjust in game issues and rotation issues during the game. Thibs needs to off load some coaching duties or replace those guys in charge. If we not getting rid of thibs gotta look at his coaching staff to see if there’s improvement there. Or maybe someone like Johnny bryant is offered a coaching gig which may force some changes.

You post some of the funniest stuff for me man.

Team exceeds expectations during regular season. Team exceeds expectations in the playoffs. Lots and lots of players really outperformed expectations (Randle, back to all NBA; Brunson went from overrated contract to the best FA acquisition for the Knicks in forever; IQ, 6th man of year talk; Hart, inject me with his play since he got to Knicks; Mitch, beast and best ORebounder in league; Grimes starts and becomes one of the best POA defenders out there).

And your conclusion is mix up coaching staff somehow cause they wildly over-performed in a lot of different ways? Because the Knicks didn't make it to Conference Finals or Finals? Because you came up with the line "his slow to adjust in game issues and rotation issues during the game" even though those exact adjustments exceeded expectations all up and down the line WHILE also developing players? WTLiteralF

I'm scratching my head.

After 10 glorious years of great marriage or a hot night with her, does your wife or partner turn to you and be like, "You can make better in game adjustments, I'm going to look around some and make some pool boy adjustments of my own, mix it up?" or really do you want her to be "GIMMIE SOME MORE OF EXACTLY THAT MUTHER FUCKER, just give me a moment to catch my breath"?

Chandler wrote:we need shooting. In principle, Grimes or IQ can provide that. But Grimes is still gun shy, and IQ (though awesome) seems to have regressed a bit in that regard (perhaps because he's not playing off ball enough?)

I wouldn't complain if we got more scoring out of the 5 spot -- but that would come with emotional expense because i like Mitch and iHart a lot and one of those would have to go.

if we get the 11 spot that's a pretty good slot to draft for shooters. Whether the guy gets good minutes early on is a separate issue.

The team has very good chemistry so they need to tread lightly on trades.

how do people feel about A.Reaves? Lakers might not be able to keep him

He is RFA with weird early bird, second round pick contract situation that I don't understand fully but it seems like the Lakers can offer him what amounts to the same MLE the Knicks could.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:If thibs is coming back, the FO needs to provide thibs with star players who are emotionally mature and excell under playoff pressure. Or someone battle tested. Not sure how this FO improves this team without moving 1 of the 3.

Thibs - not going anywhere. Especially with the growth of the team under thibs.
RJ - “he’s only 22” going on “he’s only 23”. He has shown progress but still needs work with consistency.
Randle - Easy target for fans due to him leaving his emotions on his sleeve. But will he bring us a chip? Or just regular season teasers.

If we don’t trade Randle and keep this 3 next season, then the changes must occur to the roll players starting with the DNP crew in EF and Rose. Add in Obi and IQ who I’m sure team are calling about. Or maybe it’s grimes they can use to fetch someone good. Gotta sacrifice somewhere. Gotta pay to play.

Sometimes this lack of trust by thibs can hurt players value or a smart gm who understands thibs may look at this roster and say, under a different coach certain players will shine like Obi, iq and grimes.

But thibs could use a new voice he can trust on that coaching staff that complements thibs and his slow to adjust in game issues and rotation issues during the game. Thibs needs to off load some coaching duties or replace those guys in charge. If we not getting rid of thibs gotta look at his coaching staff to see if there’s improvement there. Or maybe someone like Johnny bryant is offered a coaching gig which may force some changes.

You post some of the funniest stuff for me man.

Team exceeds expectations during regular season. Team exceeds expectations in the playoffs. Lots and lots of players really outperformed expectations (Randle, back to all NBA; Brunson went from overrated contract to the best FA acquisition for the Knicks in forever; IQ, 6th man of year talk; Hart, inject me with his play since he got to Knicks; Mitch, beast and best ORebounder in league; Grimes starts and becomes one of the best POA defenders out there).

And your conclusion is mix up coaching staff somehow cause they wildly over-performed in a lot of different ways? Because the Knicks didn't make it to Conference Finals or Finals? Because you came up with the line "his slow to adjust in game issues and rotation issues during the game" even though those exact adjustments exceeded expectations all up and down the line WHILE also developing players? WTLiteralF

I'm scratching my head.

After 10 glorious years of great marriage or a hot night with her, does your wife or partner turn to you and be like, "You can make better in game adjustments, I'm going to look around some and make some pool boy adjustments of my own, mix it up?" or really do you want her to be "GIMMIE SOME MORE OF EXACTLY THAT MUTHER FUCKER, just give me a moment to catch my breath"?

Well I’m glad I made you laugh. Thank me for extending your life expectancy. Regarding your head itching (depending on which head) there is shampoo that works pretty good.

1. I’m not following your analogy so I will not entertain that.
2. I don’t know where you stand so let me help u.

Do you think everybody (including thibs) should be brought back to try this again?
You happy with Randle being one of our main leaders on this team.
You ok with thibs slow reaction with adjustments? U ok with his in game rotation lineups in the playoffs?

Telling what thibs and Randle did in the regular season is not my argument. I’m only talking about the playoffs. If you ok with Randle and Thibs running it back in the playoffs again fine. That’s a safe take. I’m not fine because making the playoffs should not be the goal anymore, we did that and done that. Time to improve.

How do you trust this same team to improve next year by making the finals WITHOUT making any changes. Please explain. Sounds like you have more faith in thibs/Randle than I do which is fine. Again I don’t know where you stand. But if I put out some assumptions on your view point with changes next season (thread title) you tend to reply better that way.

I responded to one topic and one only: why would you mess with the coaching staff. That's it.

blkexec wrote:

I responded to one topic and one only: why would you mess with the coaching staff. That's it.

If I’m Leon, I upgrade the coaching staff because thibs is a made man. Thibs connection with Leon runs deep. And Thibs improved so leon not firing him. Now if we had a better roster and still lost, thibs would be fired if this (just ask Bud). But if leon wants to improve coaching without firing thibs, you add something to the coaching staff. Off load some of those responsibilities off thibs so he can focus more especially during in game adjustments and roster lineups. That’s 2nd quarter lineup was horrible. Not having grimes on the floor in position to recieve a pass from Brunson hurt. JB saw hart and said nope, I’m driving back into traffic and look for Randle cutting in traffic. If thibs put grimes next to JB, then JB kicks it out to grimes. JB would’ve also saw less double team energy when grimes is on the floor with him vs hart.

Pool boy it is

gradyandrew wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

JesseDark wrote:

Vmart wrote:I would think we need to move on from Randle and Robinson. The Knicks need a big man with skills. Mitch is good defensively but everything else is bad. Randle if you don’t know it by now is not a big game performer and all playoff games are big game. If the Knicks could add KAT it would be nice. It’s time to get Obi into the lineup. That’s what the Knicks need to do.

I like KAT but I see he is lil light when it comes to rebounding (only 8 a game) but he solves the offense in the pivot problem. Are we giving up Randle to get KAT?

The interesting thing about KAT is he may not have hit his ceiling yet.

KAT is a good player. He may be due $50 million. For that kind of .oney one wil ask why has he not put a team on his back to the playoffs yet? That kind of money should get you someone who can every year. JB is a good example of someone who can for A LOT less.
Unlike the idea of Vucevic as an under the radar target if you want to add offense at the 5

I get the idea of upgrading the C position for spacing but if the Knicks wing players could hit just the average rate of 3pointers, they are literally good.

I would be happy with one that can hit a 12 foot jumper. Aka, STAT or Bam. We have a really good PG now. Would love a center that could run a 2 option pick and roll with. Right now, MR can only dive to the basket on PnR's. Often wondered why they did not do so with Randle. Perhaps Thibs feels JB is better on iso? Maybe right.

Ayton is another guy we need to go after and we have the assets to possibly get him. The suns supposedly are shopping some of their guys. I don’t want Durant he’s fool’s gold and will never come here.

It seems like every time Mitchell and Ayton go head to hear Robinson eats his lunch. I think there's a lot to be said for continuity and chemistry. I'm skeptical of trading our young guys for vets. I think there's a good opportunity to roll with the same squad for the next 3 seasons and have these guys become intimately familiar with each other on both ends of the court. That gets you a pretty solid regular season record each year because from November to January everyone else is still figuring it out.

I love Mitch. Hes very limited on defense and Spo just showed how to defend Brunson in this series. Have two on ball defenders come out of the zone. Mitch has no ability to shoot so defenses won’t stay honest

gradyandrew wrote:A lot of athleticism declines with age, obviously. One of the factors that tends to improve- shooting! More reps, more confidence on the court, more experience equals better shooting. I get chills thinking about thisexact same team 3 years down the line when Obi IQ RJ and Grimes are just hitting their prime, Brunson and Josh are in the middle, and Randle is younger than Jimmy Butler is now. Look at the Celtics and Nuggets. Same core for years and they are just hitting their primes. Thibs has built a squad that can contend for the next 5 years- and there's enough young talent coming in that we can build a sustainable bench. Keep it rolling.

good points. The fan typically wants instant change and we all looking at how we did vs Miami losing 4 of 6 and thats how we should react.
We still have Randle vs ATL on our minds and think “he can never perform in the playoffs.
He has not played 20 post seasons games.
Running it back and developing a core in this culture is appealing also. Requires patience and vision of what can be vs. what has.
Does not mean its complacent.
Also does not mean if there is a deal to be done they pass. Just seems this FO is not going to over pay.