Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

Again, his salary will be $1.8m, which is effectively a wash cap wise with a minimum salary. And defense is NOT a fungible skill anyone in the G league has.

Add to it continuity, the locker room, the role, and the fact the Knicks aren't even 15 deep even if Thibs wasn't a 9-10 rotation guy, there's just no compelling reason not to let him play out his third year.

Whatever hypothetical G league player who may or may not be more productive offensively can exist WITH McBride. Doesn't need to replace him.

One reason Hart is already eating into Deuce's minutes, is because he can play D and score. Good defenders arent a dime a dozen in the G-league, but I wouldnt call them a rare commodity either.

Sure, Deuce may get better, I just like to see more evidence that its the right call this season to stick to the plan.

If Thibs had more of a two way player in the rotation. That player would probably take some of McBride's minutes as well.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

I think the general consensus from what we can gather is that the Knicks love Deuce, especially at his price. He is the perfect end of bench guy with potential to get rotation minutes.

I get that part, I do. I believe to contend, we need as many rotation players as feasible, who can step up and score. When the D is daring them to.

Is McBride that kind of player? I'd like to see more evidence of that this season before the FO commits to Deuce beyond this season.

The Knicks FO will take your approval into consideration

Booo lol I said it was the FO's call, not mine.

Right, but you need to see more evidence before they commit lol

They see him every day and you know Thibs sleeps in the gym

Well, I dont want to see them commit to McBride if he sucks for the rest of the season..right?

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

Again, his salary will be $1.8m, which is effectively a wash cap wise with a minimum salary. And defense is NOT a fungible skill anyone in the G league has.

Add to it continuity, the locker room, the role, and the fact the Knicks aren't even 15 deep even if Thibs wasn't a 9-10 rotation guy, there's just no compelling reason not to let him play out his third year.

Whatever hypothetical G league player who may or may not be more productive offensively can exist WITH McBride. Doesn't need to replace him.

One reason Hart is already eating into Deuce's minutes, is because he can play D and score. Good defenders arent a dime a dozen in the G-league, but I wouldnt call them a rare commodity either.

Sure, Deuce may get better, I just like to see more evidence that its the right call this season to stick to the plan.

If Thibs had more of a two way player in the rotation. That player would probably take some of McBride's minutes as well.

And again, if nothing else you bring him back because you 100% don't really need 15 guys, because continuity, because chemistry, because locker room, because his salary doesn't matter.

If you get ANYTHING else, it's total gravy.

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

I think the general consensus from what we can gather is that the Knicks love Deuce, especially at his price. He is the perfect end of bench guy with potential to get rotation minutes.

I get that part, I do. I believe to contend, we need as many rotation players as feasible, who can step up and score. When the D is daring them to.

Is McBride that kind of player? I'd like to see more evidence of that this season before the FO commits to Deuce beyond this season.

The Knicks FO will take your approval into consideration

Booo lol I said it was the FO's call, not mine.

Right, but you need to see more evidence before they commit lol

They see him every day and you know Thibs sleeps in the gym

Well, I dont want to see them commit to McBride if he sucks for the rest of the season..right?

Again, commit to what?

The last roster spot?

The Knicks are never going to have a roster full of players they are "developing'

At the worst, he's 15th man. Theo Pinson with D. In the middle, a young, cheap, developmental piece. At best, a rotation player.

You're overthinking this.

This discussion started with Deuce being named as part of a rotation that could compete at a high level. That Deuce was just scratching the surface of his scoring ability. To he can be a 15th man at 1.8 million no big deal.

Yes, McBride can always be sent to the end of the bench. Or we can find someone in G-league who might have more to offer the team now. If we were talking about even a couple of years ago, I would agree with you to be patient.

The deeper the bench the better. Every roster spot counts now. We're closer to contending than we've been in a long time. Dont want the Knicks to wait on players who arent showing they're worth the wait.

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

I think the general consensus from what we can gather is that the Knicks love Deuce, especially at his price. He is the perfect end of bench guy with potential to get rotation minutes.

I get that part, I do. I believe to contend, we need as many rotation players as feasible, who can step up and score. When the D is daring them to.

Is McBride that kind of player? I'd like to see more evidence of that this season before the FO commits to Deuce beyond this season.

The Knicks FO will take your approval into consideration

Booo lol I said it was the FO's call, not mine.

Right, but you need to see more evidence before they commit lol

They see him every day and you know Thibs sleeps in the gym

Well, I dont want to see them commit to McBride if he sucks for the rest of the season..right?

Again, commit to what?

The last roster spot?

The Knicks are never going to have a roster full of players they are "developing'

At the worst, he's 15th man. Theo Pinson with D. In the middle, a young, cheap, developmental piece. At best, a rotation player.

You're overthinking this.

This discussion started with Deuce being named as part of a rotation that could compete at a high level. That Deuce was just scratching the surface of his scoring ability. To he can be a 15th man at 1.8 million no big deal.

Yes, McBride can always be sent to the end of the bench. Or we can find someone in G-league who might have more to offer the team now. If we were talking about even a couple of years ago, I would agree with you to be patient.

The deeper the bench the better. Every roster spot counts now. We're closer to contending than we've been in a long time. Dont want the Knicks to wait on players who arent showing they're worth the wait.

Mykhailiuk and Arcidiacono played 13 games/37 total mins and 11/26, respectively. Every roster spot doesn't count.

And oh yeah, NONE of those 13 or 11 games were in contest when they appeared.

McBride is EXACTLY how you give those spots too when you're close to contending.

Continuity goes a long way. Roster churning in hopes of winning a lottery ticket is a fan sensibility, not NBA one.

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

I think the general consensus from what we can gather is that the Knicks love Deuce, especially at his price. He is the perfect end of bench guy with potential to get rotation minutes.

I get that part, I do. I believe to contend, we need as many rotation players as feasible, who can step up and score. When the D is daring them to.

Is McBride that kind of player? I'd like to see more evidence of that this season before the FO commits to Deuce beyond this season.

The Knicks FO will take your approval into consideration

Booo lol I said it was the FO's call, not mine.

Right, but you need to see more evidence before they commit lol

They see him every day and you know Thibs sleeps in the gym

Well, I dont want to see them commit to McBride if he sucks for the rest of the season..right?

Again, commit to what?

The last roster spot?

The Knicks are never going to have a roster full of players they are "developing'

At the worst, he's 15th man. Theo Pinson with D. In the middle, a young, cheap, developmental piece. At best, a rotation player.

You're overthinking this.

This discussion started with Deuce being named as part of a rotation that could compete at a high level. That Deuce was just scratching the surface of his scoring ability. To he can be a 15th man at 1.8 million no big deal.

Yes, McBride can always be sent to the end of the bench. Or we can find someone in G-league who might have more to offer the team now. If we were talking about even a couple of years ago, I would agree with you to be patient.

The deeper the bench the better. Every roster spot counts now. We're closer to contending than we've been in a long time. Dont want the Knicks to wait on players who arent showing they're worth the wait.

Mykhailiuk and Arcidiacono played 13 games/37 total mins and 11/26, respectively. Every roster spot doesn't count.

And oh yeah, NONE of those 13 or 11 games were in contest when they appeared.

McBride is EXACTLY how you give those spots too when you're close to contending.

Continuity goes a long way. Roster churning in hopes of winning a lottery ticket is a fan sensibility, not NBA one.

There you go again with the psychoanalyzing. Fan sensibility? You mean like talking about Deuce's amazing untapped scoring potential? We have good young players, more draft picks on the way to develop. We still dont have enough offense to contend. If this is the best we see from McBride this season, absolutely I hope the FO tries to do better in the offseason. Untouchable? Nope.

Nothing to do with psychoanalyzing.

Basic observation.

NBA teams just don't view their last 2 roster spots that way. Nothing to do with you, or me. THEY just don't.

Knicks didn't think Mykhailiuk or Arcidiacono could maybe be future rotation pieces. They don't think Keels will be either.

They're warm bodies.

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:And we've now got Josh Hart for the exact role playing type of role player that you just described.

I'm not trading away the farm for "Mikal Bridges" and/or giving Brooklyn a gigantic asking price.

Let's see if a 26 year old Mikal Bridges has it within him to lead his Brooklyn Nets rebuilding team to the Playoffs similar to how Julius Randle did for a rebuilding Knicks team bank in 2020-2021 because right now it's not looking too good for the Mikal Bridges led Nets...

He won't lead the Nets. He is not good enough. Mikal and Randle are in 2 separate classes of players. No GM looks at Mikal and expects and wants to build around him in the way you are talking.

Mikal is a role player. Randle is way above that.

I view Mikal and Hart differently. This is through the lens of building a championship level team. I think Hart is a perfect 6th man type; high energy guy who can go in bursts, fill in a spot starter.

Help me understand your thought process man.

1.)

If it's true Mikal Bridges is light years better than a 22 year old R.J. Barrett than why is there so much pressure (from our fan base) to carry the Knicks but yet someone like a 26 year old Mikal Bridges doesn't have that same pressure for Brooklyn?

2.)

And how can you say Brooklyn doesn't want to build around Mikal Bridges but yet it's confirmed they turned down 4 freaking 1st round picks for him?

Please make it make sense.

Because IQ is our 6th man off the bench and would you turn down 4 1st round premium draft picks for IQ?

None of this makes sense to me man.

NYKMentality wrote:

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:And we've now got Josh Hart for the exact role playing type of role player that you just described.

I'm not trading away the farm for "Mikal Bridges" and/or giving Brooklyn a gigantic asking price.

Let's see if a 26 year old Mikal Bridges has it within him to lead his Brooklyn Nets rebuilding team to the Playoffs similar to how Julius Randle did for a rebuilding Knicks team bank in 2020-2021 because right now it's not looking too good for the Mikal Bridges led Nets...

He won't lead the Nets. He is not good enough. Mikal and Randle are in 2 separate classes of players. No GM looks at Mikal and expects and wants to build around him in the way you are talking.

Mikal is a role player. Randle is way above that.

I view Mikal and Hart differently. This is through the lens of building a championship level team. I think Hart is a perfect 6th man type; high energy guy who can go in bursts, fill in a spot starter.

Help me understand your thought process man.

1.)

If it's true Mikal Bridges is light years better than a 22 year old R.J. Barrett than why is there so much pressure (from our fan base) to carry the Knicks but yet someone like a 26 year old Mikal Bridges doesn't have that same pressure for Brooklyn?

I'm the last person to "vent" and complain about RJ Barrett, but the answer here is obvious.

One, even the loudest cranks aren't asking him to carry the Knicks. They're asking him to be a more efficient third option OR stop shooting like he's the third option.

And play defense.

None of those things are unreasonable.

As for Bridges, I don't think the smoke has cleared enough from the last 2 weeks to gauge whatever the Nets and their fans expect from Bridge, who will play hi third game for them tonight.

And he will never be their 3rd draft pick.

2.)

And how can you say Brooklyn doesn't want to build around Mikal Bridges but yet it's confirmed they turned down 4 freaking 1st round picks for him?

Please make it make sense.

Sure, it's more nuanced that that. As I say, the smoke hasn't even cleared yet. You're MO is urgency. EVERYthing is urgent ALL the time. The Nets could have simply figured his value would go relatively unchanged a few months from now.

You're approaching it as "OMG, how could they turn that down. They'll NEVER see another offer like that ever again"

You don't know that. The Nets might just be hanging back to figure things out.

Not everything is that urgent all the time.

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Bridges should have been drafted by us.
I get it. He is one of the best “grass is greener” type players.
Josh Hart is getting so much hype now. Media today comparing him to Jimmy Butler.
Wow, are we so desperate as a fan base that we have to hype things up and then be so disappointed when things sometimes regress?
Fans, not the FO.
No thought to fixing Randle last year, just dump him.
Same with RJ.
Its all good for now, but knicks go on a three game losing streak y’all want Hart minutes cut, and Deuce to start? Same for IQ. We love our under hyped rooks.
Bridges is a good glue guy and has always been hyped given his Villinova role and handsome smile. Nice kid, plays the game the right way. We talking 4 or 5th option on offense? We assume if asked to shoot more his efficiency stays the same?

Brides is a well established wing player who never misses games, is an all defensive player type, and also shoots REALLY well. Oh and he is fairly well established as a playoff experienced player fitting in an around REALLY good players?

I'm looking at his game and plugging him right in and not changing, asking or expecting one thing different from him.

Grass is greener? How about he is a legit high level role type player who would fit seamlessly with the starters, matches Thibs and what the Knicks are doing, and the modern game.

Or maybe you are just not familiar with Bridges game?

Why would you pay a significant amount of players and draft capital to bring in a high level role player who will likely only get the team to a secured 5th or 6th playoff seed? Not to mention having to also take on Simmons salary. Mikal is a better player than RJ right now, but I sit tight and wait out the whale. Knicks already have enough role players.

For me, a team with Mikal gets you solidly in the range of 8th to 3rd seed in the East; contrast that to the Knicks today who are probably in the 10th to 6th range. That's a HUGE swing.

With Mikal, you KNOW what you are getting and it exists today. With RJ, you have to HOPE in 2-4 years time something clicks.

For me, RJ will never be a plus defender. His reaction time is slow, feet are slow, he doesn't have enough agility to navigate picks, and his overall recognition and reaction times are not good. Unfortunately, you can only get so much better in those departments, regardless of age/years. At best, RJ maybe can get to average defender, maybe. RJ has a long way to go as far as shooting and decision making with ball. I'd guess 2-3 years to get to average, if he can.

Mikal is already there as an all defensive team player. So like 1 of the 5 best in the league last year for a wing. You HAVE to guard him too, his eFG% are REALLY good: 52%, 58%, 64%, 60%, 52%. RJ: 45%, 50%, 47%, 48%. 3pt shooting is kind of the same gap.

Mikal raises everyone else's floor. Makes it easier for Randle and Brunson in a way RJ can't right now with spacing and gravity. He is a guy you need to stick to on the 3point line.

Mikal also gives some room for Grimes to breathe on the defensive end. He accelerates Grimes' growth on that end too. He and Josh would be literal accelerants for IQ, Grimes, Deuces as growth defenders IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Mikal and would take him on the Knicks in a heart beat. My point was really "at what cost"? If you are exchanging him straight up for RJ - definitely a yes. If you have to send RJ, Obi and Picks and take back Simmons as well - just not worth it to me. Knicks really need an A player.....would rather continue to wait it out because when I look at competition in the East, spending that much to still not be able to get past the Celtics and Bucks and with other teams compiling talent (i.e. think of who will land Wembanyama).

Well, it ain't happening on this Earth, so it doesn't really matter anyway ;-)

Luka to the Knicks this summer has the relative same probability.

foosballnick wrote:Don't get me wrong, I really like Mikal and would take him on the Knicks in a heart beat. My point was really "at what cost"? If you are exchanging him straight up for RJ - definitely a yes. If you have to send RJ, Obi and Picks and take back Simmons as well - just not worth it to me. Knicks really need an A player.....would rather continue to wait it out because when I look at competition in the East, spending that much to still not be able to get past the Celtics and Bucks and with other teams compiling talent (i.e. think of who will land Wembanyama).

That is the crux of it, at what cost.

For me, does Brooklyn right now have a player to build around? Face of franchise type player. Is Mikal that type of guy? I don't think so. Is RJ? I think a lot more than Mikal and you will get some traction from just being in NY. So maybe that works, maybe. I would do the exchange of RJ for Mikal too. I have no idea what teams need on the non-basketball side of things but for some reason I think RJ has some cred there.

Obi? Does Obi really have a path with the Knicks? For me, no. So you prob wouldn't care if he is moved or not. Plus he is up to be extended soon.

And the cost of Ben? That's just $$ and the Knicks shouldn't care about that too much, it's just Dolan who would be hit.

So the picks. No idea on that but the Knicks go a plenty and not very much room to have multiple rookies going on.

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:I like Deuce, but his D isnt enough to justify keeping him beyond this season.

Nope.

His $1.8m salary, the fact Thibs luvs him and and his status as a second year player who might not be anywhere near his potential offensive ceiling is.

Thats optmistic to say the least. If we dont see more than a brief glimpse of McBride's alleged unrealized potential. We can find players just as good in G-league, who can also put pts on the board.

I think the general consensus from what we can gather is that the Knicks love Deuce, especially at his price. He is the perfect end of bench guy with potential to get rotation minutes.

I get that part, I do. I believe to contend, we need as many rotation players as feasible, who can step up and score. When the D is daring them to.

Is McBride that kind of player? I'd like to see more evidence of that this season before the FO commits to Deuce beyond this season.

The Knicks FO will take your approval into consideration

Booo lol I said it was the FO's call, not mine.

Right, but you need to see more evidence before they commit lol

They see him every day and you know Thibs sleeps in the gym

Well, I dont want to see them commit to McBride if he sucks for the rest of the season..right?

Again, commit to what?

The last roster spot?

The Knicks are never going to have a roster full of players they are "developing'

At the worst, he's 15th man. Theo Pinson with D. In the middle, a young, cheap, developmental piece. At best, a rotation player.

You're overthinking this.

This discussion started with Deuce being named as part of a rotation that could compete at a high level. That Deuce was just scratching the surface of his scoring ability. To he can be a 15th man at 1.8 million no big deal.

Yes, McBride can always be sent to the end of the bench. Or we can find someone in G-league who might have more to offer the team now. If we were talking about even a couple of years ago, I would agree with you to be patient.

The deeper the bench the better. Every roster spot counts now. We're closer to contending than we've been in a long time. Dont want the Knicks to wait on players who arent showing they're worth the wait.

Mykhailiuk and Arcidiacono played 13 games/37 total mins and 11/26, respectively. Every roster spot doesn't count.

And oh yeah, NONE of those 13 or 11 games were in contest when they appeared.

McBride is EXACTLY how you give those spots too when you're close to contending.

Continuity goes a long way. Roster churning in hopes of winning a lottery ticket is a fan sensibility, not NBA one.

There you go again with the psychoanalyzing. Fan sensibility? You mean like talking about Deuce's amazing untapped scoring potential? We have good young players, more draft picks on the way to develop. We still dont have enough offense to contend. If this is the best we see from McBride this season, absolutely I hope the FO tries to do better in the offseason. Untouchable? Nope.

Nothing to do with psychoanalyzing.

Basic observation.

NBA teams just don't view their last 2 roster spots that way. Nothing to do with you, or me. THEY just don't.

Knicks didn't think Mykhailiuk or Arcidiacono could maybe be future rotation pieces. They don't think Keels will be either.

They're warm bodies.

"Overthinking" "fan sensibility" thats really not hoops related. More about the poster than the post.

Thats true they were warm bodies this season. We could afford a few warm bodies this season. That was not by design. Thibs tried a bigger rotation. If he had enough to make that happen, I think he would have

Also no new draft picks to develop this season. Unless Keels gets some burn in the second half. It was unusual not to have recent picks on the roster this season.

Small rotation, not many injuries to players in the rotation (so far), means those warm bodies werent needed except as trade fodder. We've had seasons were we went to the very last player because of all the injuries. Its one thing to have a big on the roster who doesnt do a lot of scoring. But a guard who cant be counted on for scoring hasnt worked well for us in the past.

I always enjoy thinking of alternative ways to respond to stuff like this.

We'd agree the Milwaukee Bucks have legit title aspirations, and a top flight organization and head coach, right?

So, who is their 15th man? And why he is their 15th man?

If you answer is:

1.) to "develop" him

or

2.) to step in and play significant minutes if needed

... then start over ;-)