martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I think you set a very bad example for discourse and strike me as one of those "vent frustration" guys and justify being fixated on the negative.

Let's get it straight, you won't even offer an opinion and join in on discourse. I mean, we get it, right?

No, not right.

I have offered my opinion. You find my lack of a a declarative (what I'd call "hot take" like on performative sports morning shows) 'boring.' You're allowed, the shows offer those performances because they appeal to people. They want people to have a visceral reaction to their takes.

But in both nature and training I look at both sides and try to find outcomes, rather than defend my confirmation biases. I find this approach useful and entertaining, and not for nothing, lucrative...

Players can change. And...? That's it? If you don't want to participate, that's on you.

I am participating, just not in a way YOU prefer. And that isn't on me, that's on you. And of course, you have the trap door button, I don't, so in a way, it's REALLY on you.

And you are actively looking for any type of indirect comment that could be construed towards RJ - I was literally praising a couple of players the other day in a thread that was also praising a bunch of players and you took it as a sideways glance to RJ. That's on you. Literally look at how hard you are trying.

"Actively"? I happened upon a post and that was my read. I wrote a 10 second jokey reply. I think you may be reading some premeditation that wasn't there.

But I'm going to give you some credit Martin. When i talk about how some sports fans always need a bogeyman ... when I talk about how some sports fans always gravitate to the negative ... (like the guy making fun of himself) ...and when I say RJ Barrett HAS become the latest Knicks bogeyman, I suspect you know exactly what I'm talking about. And IN MY OPINION, I think you engage in it. I understand that maybe in YOUR OPINION you don't. But in MY OPINION you do, and in MY OPINION, I've seen a lot of fans who do it not really aware they are.

Am I wrong? About you or about that post I wrote a 10 second joke about?

Maybe. That's possible.

But you're literally encouraging me to pick a declarative lane about things.

I mean, aren't you?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=65572

"Brunson-Quickley-Hart-Randle-Robinson is one of my favorite Knicks lineups of all time"

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It will never be the starting lineup most likely, but it is just so good. It will never get outworked, will always be elite defensively, and the offense hums around Randle and Brunson. Teams can’t keep this group off the offensive boards and the actively level is impossible to match. It’s that lineup no team wants to face. Can’t help but be extremely entertained watching them and I feel like this is the lineup that reflects culture change we haven’t seen since the Van Gundy days.

NICE

When you got players who understand their role, give max effort with smart plays, and how they fit in with the guys around them, just makes everyone better. IQ, Mitch, Hart are exactly that

Love it

subtitle: How To Criticize RJ Barrett Without Mentioning RJ Barrett In One Easy Step

Knickoftime wrote:

Panos wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Panos wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It will never be the starting lineup most likely, but it is just so good. It will never get outworked, will always be elite defensively, and the offense hums around Randle and Brunson. Teams can7;t keep this group off the offensive boards and the actively level is impossible to match. It;s that lineup no team wants to face. Cant help but be extremely entertained watching them and I feel like this is the lineup that reflects culture change we haven;t seen since the Van Gundy days.

NICE

When you got players who understand their role, give max effort with smart plays, and how they fit in with the guys around them, just makes everyone better. IQ, Mitch, Hart are exactly that

Love it

subtitle: How To Criticize RJ Barrett Without Mentioning RJ Barrett In One Easy Step

Hey man, the facts are what they are (until they're not). Why can't a fan have a little joy? At least for a change, there are things to be positive about this team even if RJ isn't the one bringing the joy? Why do we have to be married to him as fans?

Not sure I understand. Have a little joy = being incessantly and obsessively negative about one thing all the time?

You're the only one that mentioned RJ.

No, I wasn't.

I was the one who typed out his name.

The post I responded to WAS about RJ Barrett.

your jokes hit their mark about as well as RJ shoots the ball

Ouch.

Now that's a good joke lol

And that's communicating a ton by responding with very little.

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:It’s a good summary of a whole lotta Knicks fans LOL

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/iqfor3/status/1631108062521053187

Coming in 2025 - the RJ Barrett mix...

I’ve put my clear stance out there.

Go ahead and take a dip into the deep end and give us your thoughts on RJ.

I have at least a couple of times.

You don't reply.

It must have been that unremarkable,

Good one.

But (accidentally on your part), accurate.

Not remarkable, on purpose.

lay it out again so I get it straight

Sure. I rarely make declarative conclusions about teams or players... like that guy was making fun of himself for in that video.

I've acknowledged Barrett's efficiency is problematic and less than ideal. I suspect you've seen that yourself. But I've also seen guys turn it around well nto their careers, including a guy on THIS knicks' team.

I choose to consider the possibilities for a Knicks player so long as he's a Knicks player.

Moreover, I don't talk about players with clear animosity unless their behavior (as opposed to their talent or ability) calls for it.

Neither you or I know what the final RJ Barrett product is. Neither of us will for some time. So I'm always going to temper my words and conclusions keeping that in mind.

My "thoughts" are that simple.

It's just called making an assessment with the best info you have at the time. Hang it all out there.

Which is exactly what the guy in the video is making fun of himself for.

In professional sports, the best info you have at the tim or any time will always be "I don't know for sure." It's universal and deadly accurate.

But I get it. For some people, that's not as fun. Which is fine. Some people enjoy thinking they know something they don't. Understood.

But the animosity there's no excuse for.

That's just a clown show.

You have zero opinion and nothing to offer. That's boring man; these are discussion boards, not wait and see boards.

I have no animosity for a guy like RJ but it's not hard to see what he can and cannot do while pointing it out and offering an opinion.

This whole website is a clown show, but it's our clown show.

I might be old school but still think that its better to hold off on an opinion vs. constantly inundating everyone by pointing out the same things with the same opinion over and over again - in this case from play to play in the game thread, after each game in various threads as well as in threads specifically devoted to the RJ Sucks theme.

I realize that fan forums are for discussion, news and opinions etc.....and the more polar the positions are, likely the better business model regarding more traffic it may drive to the site. However this does not necessarily mean that everyone comes to a fan forum for the same reasons.

My position on RJ is basically the same position I had on Randle last year. He's appears to be trying to do too much. By all accounts he appears to be a very hard worker and good kid, so that generally means someone who will continue to work to try and get better. He may never be a star - but I think he will at a minimum be a solid rotational contributor. He's a good rebounder for a wing, he uses his physicality to get to the rim pretty easily and generally draws contact and fouls. The team is winning with him as a rotational player whether he finishes the game or not - with a drop to about 27 mpg since J Hart, which is about right. He has problems with turnovers and his shooting is erratic - but the team has added more competition for minutes around him, and this will likely be a good thing for his potential growth. So far Thibs seems to be managing his minutes well during the streak - so not sure why the constant noise is needed about how much he sucks. Perhaps its because he was a 3rd Pick overall and they are disappointed he hasn't met expectations. Maybe time to move on from the draft positioning and adjust expectations and be pleasantly surprised if he exceeds them instead of being stuck in a circular cycle of negative analysis on the same things over and over again.

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:It’s a good summary of a whole lotta Knicks fans LOL

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/iqfor3/status/1631108062521053187

Coming in 2025 - the RJ Barrett mix...

I’ve put my clear stance out there.

Go ahead and take a dip into the deep end and give us your thoughts on RJ.

I have at least a couple of times.

You don't reply.

It must have been that unremarkable,

Good one.

But (accidentally on your part), accurate.

Not remarkable, on purpose.

lay it out again so I get it straight

Sure. I rarely make declarative conclusions about teams or players... like that guy was making fun of himself for in that video.

I've acknowledged Barrett's efficiency is problematic and less than ideal. I suspect you've seen that yourself. But I've also seen guys turn it around well nto their careers, including a guy on THIS knicks' team.

I choose to consider the possibilities for a Knicks player so long as he's a Knicks player.

Moreover, I don't talk about players with clear animosity unless their behavior (as opposed to their talent or ability) calls for it.

Neither you or I know what the final RJ Barrett product is. Neither of us will for some time. So I'm always going to temper my words and conclusions keeping that in mind.

My "thoughts" are that simple.

It's just called making an assessment with the best info you have at the time. Hang it all out there.

Which is exactly what the guy in the video is making fun of himself for.

In professional sports, the best info you have at the tim or any time will always be "I don't know for sure." It's universal and deadly accurate.

But I get it. For some people, that's not as fun. Which is fine. Some people enjoy thinking they know something they don't. Understood.

But the animosity there's no excuse for.

That's just a clown show.

You have zero opinion and nothing to offer. That's boring man; these are discussion boards, not wait and see boards.

I have no animosity for a guy like RJ but it's not hard to see what he can and cannot do while pointing it out and offering an opinion.

This whole website is a clown show, but it's our clown show.

I might be old school but still think that its better to hold off on an opinion vs. constantly inundating everyone by pointing out the same things with the same opinion over and over again - in this case from play to play in the game thread, after each game in various threads as well as in threads specifically devoted to the RJ Sucks theme.

I realize that fan forums are for discussion, news and opinions etc.....and the more polar the positions are, likely the better business model regarding more traffic it may drive to the site. However this does not necessarily mean that everyone comes to a fan forum for the same reasons.

My position on RJ is basically the same position I had on Randle last year. He's appears to be trying to do too much. By all accounts he appears to be a very hard worker and good kid, so that generally means someone who will continue to work to try and get better. He may never be a star - but I think he will at a minimum be a solid rotational contributor. He's a good rebounder for a wing, he uses his physicality to get to the rim pretty easily and generally draws contact and fouls. The team is winning with him as a rotational player whether he finishes the game or not - with a drop to about 27 mpg since J Hart, which is about right. He has problems with turnovers and his shooting is erratic - but the team has added more competition for minutes around him, and this will likely be a good thing for his potential growth. So far Thibs seems to be managing his minutes well during the streak - so not sure why the constant noise is needed about how much he sucks. Perhaps its because he was a 3rd Pick overall and they are disappointed he hasn't met expectations. Maybe time to move on from the draft positioning and adjust expectations and be pleasantly surprised if he exceeds them instead of being stuck in a circular cycle of negative analysis on the same things over and over again.

Those are reasonable, thoughtful, well articulated, nuanced thoughts...

... in case you were wondering why the the Barrett critics didn't respond in any way.

gradyandrew wrote:If the Knicks were comfortable with RJ they wouldn't have made the Josh Hart trade. Whatever Thibs has done since, it seems to be working. If a good deal comes along this summer, RJ is tradable.

The hart deal had nothing to do with RJ. They were struggling with bench depth prior to that trade. Only Quickley provided anything off the bench. Hart brings a different element to the team and is of no relevance to RJ. They may have concerns about Barrett but they have nothing to do with the Knicks trading for an elite bench guy like hart.

I don’t love RJs game. He’s selfish and makes poor decisions. But he also averages nearly 20pts and is still 22 years old.

Things change quickly in this league and teams can get old quick. We are in a fortunate position that guys aren’t at their apex for a while. Sign our guys and worry about trades later. We can draft another wing this offseason and reassess.

You trade for Levine he gets injured and you have another Allan Houston situation. You give up your picks you lose Toppin, etc. then you can’t make a move.

Just be patient. Grimes and Quickly are improving offensively so we have the fire power we need. It comes down to better decisions less one on one and more ball movement.

MS wrote:I think it’s important not to panic.

I don’t love RJs game. He’s selfish and makes poor decisions. But he also averages nearly 20pts and is still 22 years old.

Things change quickly in this league and teams can get old quick. We are in a fortunate position that guys aren’t at their apex for a while. Sign our guys and worry about trades later. We can draft another wing this offseason and reassess.

You trade for Levine he gets injured and you have another Allan Houston situation. You give up your picks you lose Toppin, etc. then you can’t make a move.

Just be patient. Grimes and Quickly are improving offensively so we have the fire power we need. It comes down to better decisions less one on one and more ball movement.

I would not trade RJ for Lavine

MS wrote:I think it’s important not to panic.

I don’t love RJs game. He’s selfish and makes poor decisions. But he also averages nearly 20pts and is still 22 years old.

Things change quickly in this league and teams can get old quick. We are in a fortunate position that guys aren’t at their apex for a while. Sign our guys and worry about trades later. We can draft another wing this offseason and reassess.

You trade for Levine he gets injured and you have another Allan Houston situation. You give up your picks you lose Toppin, etc. then you can’t make a move.

Just be patient. Grimes and Quickly are improving offensively so we have the fire power we need. It comes down to better decisions less one on one and more ball movement.

I wonder if some of this is about RJ adjusting to not being the number one (or two) option at this stage in his career. He was the number 3 pick, and Im sure he expected (and mgmt expected) that he would be more than a role player in this offense.

RJ's leadership role has now been supplanted by Randle and Brunson. But in some ways, he's still playing like he's the number one option that he was at times, early in his career.

We've seen some great passes, alley oops from RJ to Mitch lately. I would gladly take a few less points, and a few more assists in RJ's stats. Would also help Grimes, if RJ was looking to get him more involved.

The last game there was a lot less dribbling. RJ was making his move right away, moving the ball. Hope he can keep it going.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:It’s a good summary of a whole lotta Knicks fans LOL

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/iqfor3/status/1631108062521053187

Coming in 2025 - the RJ Barrett mix...

I’ve put my clear stance out there.

Go ahead and take a dip into the deep end and give us your thoughts on RJ.

I have at least a couple of times.

You don't reply.

It must have been that unremarkable,

Good one.

But (accidentally on your part), accurate.

Not remarkable, on purpose.

lay it out again so I get it straight

Sure. I rarely make declarative conclusions about teams or players... like that guy was making fun of himself for in that video.

I've acknowledged Barrett's efficiency is problematic and less than ideal. I suspect you've seen that yourself. But I've also seen guys turn it around well nto their careers, including a guy on THIS knicks' team.

I choose to consider the possibilities for a Knicks player so long as he's a Knicks player.

Moreover, I don't talk about players with clear animosity unless their behavior (as opposed to their talent or ability) calls for it.

Neither you or I know what the final RJ Barrett product is. Neither of us will for some time. So I'm always going to temper my words and conclusions keeping that in mind.

My "thoughts" are that simple.

ok you thought about it but you are not saying anything.

The fact is RJ has been pretty much the same guy since year 1. Nobody has seen the kind of incremental upticks that say this player has more levels to unlock. He's young. Experience matters. Coaching matters. Things can change.

However with pro sports as you know there is ALWAYS a sense of urgency and being patient with players comes with opportunity cost. Obviously it can also produce. I dont think the FO EVER considered trading Randle. I'm pretty sure he was always getting this season to turn things around.... but one could surely use that as a positive example of patience. Turns out he's none of the stuff folks labeled him last year.

Randle showed in his MIP season some patience was merited. What was RJ shown? He's the least EF% scorer we have and takes the 3rd amount of shots and on a par w/ Randle/Brunson. Its not RJ hate. When do the Knicks shift from patience with RJ to "someone else needs to be taking those shots and getting those minutes"

Randle was 26 in his 7th season.

Barrett is still the youngest guy in the Knicks rotation. Yes, he's logged a lot of years and mins, relatively. That's certainly a factor to consider. He may have peaked or at least gotten close enough that his peak will still be inefficient. That's entirely possible and an argument can be made.

I have zero issue with Barrett criticism. It's appropriate. I make no attempt to explain away his inefficiency. I don't pretend to have a conviction about the remainder of his career.

I know that position confuses some people.

But circling back not all criticism is the same.

There ARE sports fans who become fixated on that one guy. There is always that one guy. Every team, every year, regardless of whether the team is good or bad. A bogeyman ALWAYS exists.

I'm just pointing it out.

I don't have any personal issue with RJ Barrett. I don't need to "vent" frustration over his play, much less all the time. He strikes me as a good guy who genuinely tries. That's all I ask.

I'd be okay with trading him for the right deal, I'd be okay with some of his mins being scaled back. But I just don't see the evidence or need to write off his career.

And the constant complaining and the animosity involved is just a BAD look, any which way.

again... thanks for the thoughts, but you are not saying anything. How long do YOU remain patient? How long do you think the Knicks FO remains patient? How long do you think Thibs remains patient? Feel free to answer any of these with you opinions. You dont need to be right. Just curious

I'll jump in here as too am cool with Barrett for now. Why? We doing good with him in the line up.

See... there is where you lost me. No we arent. We are the worst when he's on the floor. Before the winning streak the worst stretches for the Knicks where when he was on the floor. Namely in the first qtr when he would miss everything and IQ would come in and we would play better and with he's with the Obi/McBride line up which to be fair is very weak and no more.

He's got the worst +/-
He's got the worst ORTg and DRTg
He's got the worst win shares and WS/48

Nalod he's hands down the worst rotation player which honestly would be fine, except his usage and FGAs are NOT in line with the quality of his play. I'm just asking when does that change?

I will say one thing is he's pretty much lost his crunchtime spot to IQ or Hart and has to be playing lights out to stay in. Im not happy with that. Best thing for the Knicks is this guy leveling up.

Fish, I think he clearly meant RJ is still IN the rotation AND the Knicks are winning. He's not arguing the Knicks are at their best when he's on the floor.

As to your purely rhetorical question, which I responded as requested, it doesn't change now.

As nalod was pointing out, there is no current compelling reason to drastically change. Barrett might even benefitting from being a part of what's currently going on.

Development is a curvy, bumpy road that often doesn't take a direct path and isn't on any map.

I personally LIKE him being a part of 47 point quarters.

AND ... I trust Thibs to know the answer to the question better than you or I do.

Yep. We winning so RJ and his reduced numbers are not a detriment. Others look better so there is contrast. I get it.
He has bad moments when asked to do "Too much". Its part of his growth process? Repeating what I have said, we saw this with Randle, Grimes and IQ over the last two years as well. Develop on the fly. Its along season.
I think fans taking for granted the good and the not so good looks worse these days.
Grimes has not not looked great at times. We stay with our yoot for now is what Thibs is doing.
Perhaps he stops asking him to create from the elbow and top of the key and return to feeding him down hill come playoffs. Me thinks Thibs is getting him ready to carry the second unit.
Not like we blowing big leads and losing games badly. Not like we are NOT recovering from deficits.

Fact is this winning streak is pretty impressive with RJ. Proof? 7-0. Never said he is the catalyst. Just not the detriment.

foosballnick wrote:
I realize that fan forums are for discussion, news and opinions etc.....and the more polar the positions are, likely the better business model regarding more traffic it may drive to the site. However this does not necessarily mean that everyone comes to a fan forum for the same reasons.

Martin, just curious if your uk profits are going to your yacht now or are they still paying toward your lodge in Jackson Hole?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/knicksmuse/status/1631878539732459526