HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:For those who decry those of us who want to dump Randall, do you guys want to buy any bridges ? You guys are beyond gullible.

Sure. When is he coming?

We decry anyone who wants to scapegoat our many issues.
After last two games, Randle is one of many (not first) on a long list of players we should dump.

Yes, there are many issues with this club. That doesn't diminish the part Randle plays in this BS. He rarely ever finds it worth his time to step up and contest a three. Or resist the urge to go iso, or make bad jump passed to open shooters or take up a large swath of cap space...We've seen 4 years of this already. Even if you think Randle is our best player, it's clear he's not good enough. Should we dump Fournier as well? Yeah, but he's not even playing these days. Part of being the "best player" is leading by example and I'll admit, Randle has that part down pat. The entire team is following his example of lethargic, inconsistent defense and dumb offense. You're right, I'm a hater. I hate watching inconsistent effort game after game.

The thing you keep missing is that NO ONE on here thinks Randle should be our BEST player or the "HEART" of the team. The only ones upset that he is are those that expected something more.
Guys like me preaching that he is a good piece and should not be dumped for "scraps" see him for what he is. Every team needs a bull. He is that when he sticks to driving hard. You need a good rebounder at PF. He is. Despite hater clips he is a good defender for a PF. Especially when guarding bigger PFs. He also can spread a defense out with his range. Good to have a PF that can do all that.
He did so at an All Star level. So there is that. Basically, despite his flaws he fits what you need in a PF.

Now what about the rest of the lineup??
PG- We have a good PG. You need a good shooter. He is. You need an elite creator. He is. You need a good defender of opposing star guards. He probably is not However, he mostly fits his role. I have criticized him when he has games where he is not creating for others. (Under 7 assists and we usually lose). But he may have the same issues Randle has in passing. That being our lack of shooting from SG, SF and C.
SG- Our shooting guard is missing major ingredient. He can't shoot. Who is Randle and JB going to pass it out to? A good SG also breaks down the defense and sets others up. Ours does not. He is however a good defender. So that is good.
SG- Our small forward should be able to play defense. EF did not Cam does. Our SF is suppose to shoot. Who is Randle suppose to pass out in Double teams? Brunson on penetration. Cam can't and EF can. Our SF is suppose to create for others. Neither has.
C- Today's NBA needs a C who can spread floor and give offensive elite players room to operate. We do not have any of that. C is suppose to protect the rim. That we have.

So when bring up Randle this is what I see. Not that he is such a good player.

Hater clips? These hater clips have been posted consistently since the start of the season. Spread the defense out with his range? His three point shooting remains below league average. You guys point to all these things Randle can do, but fail to mention that he doesn't do it on a consistent basis. Yes, the team has many flaws. That doesn't negate the fact that Randle is at the core of many of these issues. This team isn't good enough and it doesn't make sense to keep applying scotch tape to a project that needs a complete renovation.

Exactly...Some are advocating trading IQ, Obi, Evan and Rose. Those are peripheral pieces on this team that will only get us peripheral pieces back and it will do nothing to fix the core issues of this team which is the core players. The core needs to be dismantled because in my opinion the jigsaw pieces do not fit. I am not saying that we should build around Brunson, but he is our best and most clutch player and his ability and skill set should help the front office design a blueprint to add the correct pieces that fit alongside him. Randle, RJ and Mitch need to disassembled.

Exactly. I remember last year I'd hear 'well wait to Julius has a point guard!' Well he has a point guard and how is that turning out so far? No one is saying Julius is gutter trash, but he's not it as far as this franchise is concerned. The ecosystems needed for him to thrive and the rest of the team to be functional aren't compatible.

so why are you guys focused on Randle and Thibs? This FO just give big money to lock up RJ/Randle/Mitch together... I mean maybe its just retaining assets and moves will be made but this group wasnt built by Thibs or Randle, it was build (or retained) by Leon.

I'm not on the fire Thibs train yet. As for Randle, it's because he's played like @$$ for the majority of his tenure here. I need a reason other than that?

Got it. Randle is the ONLY guy you have chosen to identify as "playing like ass" during their tenure here. Of course, except for year as an All Star and being our highest producing player on team.
Bro, you need to take off those hater glasses.

Firing Thibs is as smart as trading the only player who has produced for scraps just cuz fans like you want to see yet another hopeful.
Not a smart move until you fix major issues. Main one is our roster can't shoot nor is it compatible. Or you have a decent alternative.

But hey, if we can get a proven number one, proven shooters and a better proven PF, I would trade everyone in a heartbeat. Can now admit to being one the many Knicks hopeful fans that thought these scraps were too much to give for DM.

Like I said, one good, overachieving season and the rest of his tenure has been butt cheeks. Nothing to hide. It's for all to see. The major flaw with this team is that exists. It needs to be tore down to the core. You're under the impression that there are pieces that need to be saved or can put together given time. That's not reality. This team is on treadmill, hanging for it's life and headed for irrelevance. Getting rid of Randle is the first step, tho you might argue RJ due to his extension. Rebuilds are hard and sometimes you need to recognize you effed up and pivot on the fly. Or do you really need to see more low IQ offensive and defensive play from Randle?

Your still stuck on Randle. Like talking to someone with their wheels stuck in the mud and keeps blaming the engine. You claim it's there for all to see? You mean through your distorted glasses? Listed several positives and can list his stats the last three years. No matter how you color them, they are better than anyone else we have. Still waiting for who you think can replace him? And saying scraps/anyone is just what a hater says. Which you have said many times. Not exactly the way a professional FO would handle things. Just a bunch of shortsighted fans trippin. For now, I'll take his flaws. Like I take RJs 22% recent shooting. Like I'll take Obi's lack of defense and 0-9 last two games. Like I'll take Grimes 1-5 from three last game. Like I'll take Obi's 1-11 last two games. Or MR lack of offense. Or JBs lack of passing at times. Until something better proposes itself.

Fyi, I am not saying team should be scrapped. I am actually for patience unless something better comes along. I am okay watching Obi, RJ, IQ, Grimes, MR, Sims , Cam, Randle and JB continue to put it together. Unlike you I am not expecting ONE of those to be an elite star However also feel we should pull the trigger on any deal that will improve our talent level. Ie. An elite number one, elite shooters or a proven PF. Definitely not going to spend all my time looking to scapegoat ONE player amongst many average players on an average team.

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:For those who decry those of us who want to dump Randall, do you guys want to buy any bridges ? You guys are beyond gullible.

Sure. When is he coming?

We decry anyone who wants to scapegoat our many issues.
After last two games, Randle is one of many (not first) on a long list of players we should dump.

Yes, there are many issues with this club. That doesn't diminish the part Randle plays in this BS. He rarely ever finds it worth his time to step up and contest a three. Or resist the urge to go iso, or make bad jump passed to open shooters or take up a large swath of cap space...We've seen 4 years of this already. Even if you think Randle is our best player, it's clear he's not good enough. Should we dump Fournier as well? Yeah, but he's not even playing these days. Part of being the "best player" is leading by example and I'll admit, Randle has that part down pat. The entire team is following his example of lethargic, inconsistent defense and dumb offense. You're right, I'm a hater. I hate watching inconsistent effort game after game.

The thing you keep missing is that NO ONE on here thinks Randle should be our BEST player or the "HEART" of the team. The only ones upset that he is are those that expected something more.
Guys like me preaching that he is a good piece and should not be dumped for "scraps" see him for what he is. Every team needs a bull. He is that when he sticks to driving hard. You need a good rebounder at PF. He is. Despite hater clips he is a good defender for a PF. Especially when guarding bigger PFs. He also can spread a defense out with his range. Good to have a PF that can do all that.
He did so at an All Star level. So there is that. Basically, despite his flaws he fits what you need in a PF.

Now what about the rest of the lineup??
PG- We have a good PG. You need a good shooter. He is. You need an elite creator. He is. You need a good defender of opposing star guards. He probably is not However, he mostly fits his role. I have criticized him when he has games where he is not creating for others. (Under 7 assists and we usually lose). But he may have the same issues Randle has in passing. That being our lack of shooting from SG, SF and C.
SG- Our shooting guard is missing major ingredient. He can't shoot. Who is Randle and JB going to pass it out to? A good SG also breaks down the defense and sets others up. Ours does not. He is however a good defender. So that is good.
SG- Our small forward should be able to play defense. EF did not Cam does. Our SF is suppose to shoot. Who is Randle suppose to pass out in Double teams? Brunson on penetration. Cam can't and EF can. Our SF is suppose to create for others. Neither has.
C- Today's NBA needs a C who can spread floor and give offensive elite players room to operate. We do not have any of that. C is suppose to protect the rim. That we have.

So when bring up Randle this is what I see. Not that he is such a good player.

Hater clips? These hater clips have been posted consistently since the start of the season. Spread the defense out with his range? His three point shooting remains below league average. You guys point to all these things Randle can do, but fail to mention that he doesn't do it on a consistent basis. Yes, the team has many flaws. That doesn't negate the fact that Randle is at the core of many of these issues. This team isn't good enough and it doesn't make sense to keep applying scotch tape to a project that needs a complete renovation.

Exactly...Some are advocating trading IQ, Obi, Evan and Rose. Those are peripheral pieces on this team that will only get us peripheral pieces back and it will do nothing to fix the core issues of this team which is the core players. The core needs to be dismantled because in my opinion the jigsaw pieces do not fit. I am not saying that we should build around Brunson, but he is our best and most clutch player and his ability and skill set should help the front office design a blueprint to add the correct pieces that fit alongside him. Randle, RJ and Mitch need to disassembled.

Exactly. I remember last year I'd hear 'well wait to Julius has a point guard!' Well he has a point guard and how is that turning out so far? No one is saying Julius is gutter trash, but he's not it as far as this franchise is concerned. The ecosystems needed for him to thrive and the rest of the team to be functional aren't compatible.

Fyi He said RJ, Randle and MR. Keep that focus bro .
To quote Knickdanger "Hate to me is primarily characterized by a desire (need?) to harp only on the negative and on specific personalities - obsessively."
You keep saying you are not all about being a Randle hater but have yet to bring up anything else about the Knicks?

@Uptown. Can try to quick erase **** by removing everyone. Which you would have to do since NO ONE besides Brunson 20/6.5 and Randle 20/8.6 are having ok years. Including the second unit.
Building around JB? Why? Size not ideal. Can see the trade threads start once he has a few more 2-13 games when he is the one we are building around and counting on. Using another Knickdanger quote. "proposing stupid trade ideas just so they're gone. And then move on to the next object of loathing." Is not enough or productive.

So far, it's obvious that the move is to trade the "hopefuls" for established star. We just had a chance but Knicks fans are famous for overvaluing the players that have yet to produce anything and undervaluing the players they have that are.

Reding is fundamental...I never said build around Brunson, I said add pieces that will make sense alongside him...Brunson flourished last year because he had a true number 1, shooters and defenders around him....I bolded it for you so you can re-read it. So, that point you were trying to make about not building around JB because of his size, etc, doesn't apply to me because it wasn't the point I was making. I grouped Randle, RJ, Brunson and Mitch together because their games are not an ideal fit on the court.

FYI, Randle is 107 wins and 130 losses since he put on the blue and orange...But, hey, @Hoftraball wants us all to know that he is the best player on a mediocre team

Just make a point. Or we can go with jabs from now on Uptown?
"Reading is fundamental" Just said it's not about how good Randle is. It's about having pieces that don't fit theri roles and are not very good. You just said that too right? Yet you blame the guy who we both admit is not a number one but happens to be OUR BEST PLAYER for all our losing? The guy that made the All Star team? The guy who averages a double double? Not the mamy ****ty pieces that did not fit or were not that good? Not EF, Frank, Knox, Payton, RJ, No MR or true PG in 21/22. Makes no sense.

"Reading is fundamental.. So is writing. @Uptown stating "you want to dump RJ, Randle, MR so the team can focus on putting pieces that fit alongside JB" but don't call that building around him?
Uptown to Rose: We need to focus on putting the right pieces "alongside" JB.
Rose: So build around him?
Uptown: Nah, alongside him!

Must be some uptown jargon.

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:For those who decry those of us who want to dump Randall, do you guys want to buy any bridges ? You guys are beyond gullible.

Sure. When is he coming?

We decry anyone who wants to scapegoat our many issues.
After last two games, Randle is one of many (not first) on a long list of players we should dump.

Yes, there are many issues with this club. That doesn't diminish the part Randle plays in this BS. He rarely ever finds it worth his time to step up and contest a three. Or resist the urge to go iso, or make bad jump passed to open shooters or take up a large swath of cap space...We've seen 4 years of this already. Even if you think Randle is our best player, it's clear he's not good enough. Should we dump Fournier as well? Yeah, but he's not even playing these days. Part of being the "best player" is leading by example and I'll admit, Randle has that part down pat. The entire team is following his example of lethargic, inconsistent defense and dumb offense. You're right, I'm a hater. I hate watching inconsistent effort game after game.

The thing you keep missing is that NO ONE on here thinks Randle should be our BEST player or the "HEART" of the team. The only ones upset that he is are those that expected something more.
Guys like me preaching that he is a good piece and should not be dumped for "scraps" see him for what he is. Every team needs a bull. He is that when he sticks to driving hard. You need a good rebounder at PF. He is. Despite hater clips he is a good defender for a PF. Especially when guarding bigger PFs. He also can spread a defense out with his range. Good to have a PF that can do all that.
He did so at an All Star level. So there is that. Basically, despite his flaws he fits what you need in a PF.

Now what about the rest of the lineup??
PG- We have a good PG. You need a good shooter. He is. You need an elite creator. He is. You need a good defender of opposing star guards. He probably is not However, he mostly fits his role. I have criticized him when he has games where he is not creating for others. (Under 7 assists and we usually lose). But he may have the same issues Randle has in passing. That being our lack of shooting from SG, SF and C.
SG- Our shooting guard is missing major ingredient. He can't shoot. Who is Randle and JB going to pass it out to? A good SG also breaks down the defense and sets others up. Ours does not. He is however a good defender. So that is good.
SG- Our small forward should be able to play defense. EF did not Cam does. Our SF is suppose to shoot. Who is Randle suppose to pass out in Double teams? Brunson on penetration. Cam can't and EF can. Our SF is suppose to create for others. Neither has.
C- Today's NBA needs a C who can spread floor and give offensive elite players room to operate. We do not have any of that. C is suppose to protect the rim. That we have.

So when bring up Randle this is what I see. Not that he is such a good player.

Hater clips? These hater clips have been posted consistently since the start of the season. Spread the defense out with his range? His three point shooting remains below league average. You guys point to all these things Randle can do, but fail to mention that he doesn't do it on a consistent basis. Yes, the team has many flaws. That doesn't negate the fact that Randle is at the core of many of these issues. This team isn't good enough and it doesn't make sense to keep applying scotch tape to a project that needs a complete renovation.

Exactly...Some are advocating trading IQ, Obi, Evan and Rose. Those are peripheral pieces on this team that will only get us peripheral pieces back and it will do nothing to fix the core issues of this team which is the core players. The core needs to be dismantled because in my opinion the jigsaw pieces do not fit. I am not saying that we should build around Brunson, but he is our best and most clutch player and his ability and skill set should help the front office design a blueprint to add the correct pieces that fit alongside him. Randle, RJ and Mitch need to disassembled.

Exactly. I remember last year I'd hear 'well wait to Julius has a point guard!' Well he has a point guard and how is that turning out so far? No one is saying Julius is gutter trash, but he's not it as far as this franchise is concerned. The ecosystems needed for him to thrive and the rest of the team to be functional aren't compatible.

Fyi He said RJ, Randle and MR. Keep that focus bro .
To quote Knickdanger "Hate to me is primarily characterized by a desire (need?) to harp only on the negative and on specific personalities - obsessively."
You keep saying you are not all about being a Randle hater but have yet to bring up anything else about the Knicks?

@Uptown. Can try to quick erase **** by removing everyone. Which you would have to do since NO ONE besides Brunson 20/6.5 and Randle 20/8.6 are having ok years. Including the second unit.
Building around JB? Why? Size not ideal. Can see the trade threads start once he has a few more 2-13 games when he is the one we are building around and counting on. Using another Knickdanger quote. "proposing stupid trade ideas just so they're gone. And then move on to the next object of loathing." Is not enough or productive.

So far, it's obvious that the move is to trade the "hopefuls" for established star. We just had a chance but Knicks fans are famous for overvaluing the players that have yet to produce anything and undervaluing the players they have that are.

Reding is fundamental...I never said build around Brunson, I said add pieces that will make sense alongside him...Brunson flourished last year because he had a true number 1, shooters and defenders around him....I bolded it for you so you can re-read it. So, that point you were trying to make about not building around JB because of his size, etc, doesn't apply to me because it wasn't the point I was making. I grouped Randle, RJ, Brunson and Mitch together because their games are not an ideal fit on the court.

FYI, Randle is 107 wins and 130 losses since he put on the blue and orange...But, hey, @Hoftraball wants us all to know that he is the best player on a mediocre team

Just make a point. Or we can go with jabs from now on Uptown?
"Reading is fundamental" Just said it's not about how good Randle is. It's about having pieces that don't fit theri roles and are not very good. You just said that too right? Yet you blame the guy who we both admit is not a number one but happens to be OUR BEST PLAYER for all our losing? The guy that made the All Star team? The guy who averages a double double? Not the mamy ****ty pieces that did not fit or were not that good? Not EF, Frank, Knox, Payton, RJ, No MR or true PG in 21/22. Makes no sense.

"Reading is fundamental.. So is writing. @Uptown stating "you want to dump RJ, Randle, MR so the team can focus on putting pieces that fit alongside JB" but don't call that building around him?
Uptown to Rose: We need to focus on putting the right pieces "alongside" JB.
Rose: So build around him?
Uptown: Nah, alongside him!

Must be some uptown jargon.

First off, my bad on the "reading is fundamental"...I probably shouldn't have taken it there but you are missing my point...

Let me clarify, When I said RJ, Randle and Mitch need to be disassembled, I'm not saying we need to have a fire sale and trade all 3, but one of RJ or Randle, in my opinion, may need to be moved. Neither are consistent floor-spacers, both are pretty stagnant when they dont have the ball and they tend to play "my-turn, your-turn" on offense. Ultimately, despite Brunson's presence, Randle and RJ still lead the team in usage. It's difficult to win consistently when your two highest usage players are inefficient.

As far as Brunson is concerned, my point about him is he is keeper. He's efficient, especially down the stretch, he doesn't turn the ball over, he knows how to create disadvantages on the offensive end and he gets to his spots, regardless. I know damn-well you can't build a championship team around a small guard...however, since he is going to be here for 4 years, his presence can inform me of how to build out the team. Clearly, we need an allstar playmaking wing, that's better than Brunson and will allow Brunson to play off the ball some. We need players that can space the floor and allow Brunson and that sllstar wing to go to work in the mid range; we need a big guard beside Brunson that can defend and a 4 or 5 that can run the PNR. One of the reasons Brunson's 3 pt% was higher in Dallas is because Luka got him a ton of open looks. Dallas was actually built very well to accommodate Brunsons strengths and cover his weaknesses.

I agree with all of this. Have said we have guys that are too similar and do not compliment each other. Specifically guya like JB, Randle, RJ..Have also said shooting at every position should be our main goal.

May seem like I am defending Randle. More like defending scapegoating and guys just flat out hating. Mostly because of their unrealistic expectations of Randle and for Obi.
Randle is a decent player. If he cuts down on TOs, shares the ball and improves/limits his three point shot, he is a solid NBA PF. Have mentioned I would prefer a different style of player myself. But who is that?
It's more about finding realistic better options. Not dumping assets for scraps.
I am also for patience with ALL our players. However, if a better option comes along, I am all for it. Not saying you are doing so but many on here like to just whine and do there best to spin the hate without having any real options.

Agree that JB has proven to be a good piece. As long as people understand what he is and keep normal expectations. Curious to see how he handles his possessions with better shooters around him. One of the things I noticed in Dallas is that he was a hell of a scorer but struggled getting guys around him going. But like everyone else, it's something he can work on. Can't assume he can't continue to improve. We were lucky to get him without giving anything up.