ESOMKnicks wrote:

TheGame wrote:Look, I am African-American and after seeing the B.S. that was Trump, I can envision a time in this Country when I might need to take up arms to defend my liberties against the government. However, I see no reason why we cannot have simply gun control laws. We have a 21-year age limit in most states on alcohol, but an 18 year old can go and buy an AR-15 assault rifle!! That makes no logical sense to me. We need to implement age limits on these guns and background check requirements along with 3-day cool off periods. The mental health aspect should be addressed too, but you cannot just focus on mental health. There also has to be changes in the gun laws. We also should impose higher taxes on gun manufactures just like we do with alcohol and tobacco for the harm they cause, and we should have more gun-buy back programs and gun amnesty laws to encourage people to get illegal guns off the streets. These are all simple things that I think 80% of Americans would approve off if the Republicans stopped blocking all attempts at gun control.

Responsible gun ownership, handling and shooting skills should be part of the mandatory high school curriculum. So should be drivers' ed. Schools should teach the basic practical skills that are necessary for pretty much any regular American.

On taxes: it is up to the government to decide what is the best way to raise tax revenue to fund public services. But from the social policy perspective, I cannot agree with taxation as a way to discourage gun ownership. I think legal and responsible gun ownership is GOOD for the country.

Also from the moral perspective, financial penalties against manufacturers are ridiculous, it is the people who use and abuse guns, tobacco and alcohol that should be held responsible for those uses and abuses, not the manufacturers. Or are we going to start holding car manufacturers responsbile for highway accidents caused by aggressive or drunk drivers?

Have there been studies that show how effective gun buybacks are in getting illegal guns off the streets? Sounds to me like a case of drawing a glass of water out of the sea and pouring it right back out.

So the first point about handling, that is the army! And I would support some kind of more encompassing approach to enlistment- where it's mandatory and part of the education process because I think the thing the services teach is respect and and understanding that sometimes following orders is about life and death.

And on holding some responsible - a bar in some states can get in trouble for serving a drunk person alcohol if they are a threat.

With freedom, comes responsibility. If we want the freedom to own guns, then having the responsibility if something preventable to pay up is a must.

Clean wrote:Is there still people who think they can take on the government with just guns? I remember someone joking about this and the person saying people who think this way don't understand how tanks work. I would like to add UAVs to that list. Infantrymen are fodder to UAVs dropping bombs on them from extreme heights in the battle field. Check out videos from the Ukraine/Russia war if you don't believe me. Any normal citizen being able to take on the government is just bravado. If the government wants something bad enough you will not be able to stop them.

You obviously have no chance to defeat tanks with handguns, but the whole point is different, it is that the cost of subduing a population with millions of handguns on its hands is immensely higher than for an unarmed population. Very often, prohibitively higher. So that stops a number of would-be tyrants.

As for Ukraine, it is a good example, Putin was used to subduing his own unarmed people (except for the armed Chechens, whom he is just buying off), and then he annexed Crimea without a single shot while Ukraine was poorly armed and disoriented. Now he has thought to repeat the experience, but instead met a determined armed resistance from an army that was far inferior to his technologically. In the process, the Ukrainians had to quickly create "territorial defense" units, pretty much civilians armed with nothing more than assault rifles. This has helped them hold out during the first month of war, until heavier munitions started arriving from the West. And all of a sudden Putin finds himself in a military and political fiasco, has no idea what to do to extricate himself from the mess, and just launches into a nuclear threat tantrum.

KnickDanger wrote:Ted Cruz saying we need to arm teachers…I can see second grade teacher Mrs. Wilkins packing heat, or PE coach Mr. Brown watching over his kids with an AK-47. Maybe Cruz and his fellow bobos want to reenact the Wild West but, yeah, I’d guess it has more to do with where their money comes from and hanging on to power. Egregiously despicable in a world teeming with the despicable.

This situation is interesting, though very tragic, in that the driver here didn't have a gun. Imagine a country where it's illegal for civilians to legally own firearms and/or handguns.

The teen who robbed him had the "gun jam", that means he tried to shoot the driver. He tried to ****ing murder him over a pair of shoes. Now people here can criticize the "smarts" of a guy who allows some stranger to walk right into his car off of Craiglist, but that still doesn't mean he deserves to get murdered over some kicks.

Even without a gun, the driver just ran the teen over. People can argue the right or wrong of that, but even if you take away guns, people are going to still kill each other and people will find some means to defend themselves.

But the situation creates another question . What happens if this is the widespread "new normal"? What if one day it's all law abiding people who have been disarmed and the only ones left with guns are criminals ( who don't give a **** about laws anyway), cops who probably won't show up and private security with guns that protect the politicians who give zero ****s about you and me and our families.

The other thing is lots of people have "side hustles" to make ends meet. Maybe selling a pair of shoes was the difference between buying groceries or not for this guy and his three kids. We don't know everyone's situation. When you terrorize people just trying to earn legitimately then you push everyone who is around that person.

The entire Fuck Republicans For Everything routine doesn't cover the reality that the entire spectrum of gun ownership and self defense and rising crime are all extremely complex issues. And many of the victims are actually minorities. It's really hard to push some White Nationalism/GOP brain washed angle when it's just every day people fighting back.

Should teachers be armed? I'll say this much, after seeing the **** storm of the past three years, I won't blame anyone for legally buying a gun and wanting to protect themselves. I also recognize that this choice isn't built for everyone. Some people don't vibe with guns and no one should force them to get one. Just like I believe no one should force many law abiding gun owners to lose their weapons.

For everyone here, there's a magic line somewhere under which you'll probably wish you had a gun in your hands to protect yourself and your family. There's a point where you will have to cross over and pick up a Glock or risk being just another victim on a slab. I hope none of you reach that scenario. But it's always there. How much risk you want to assume is up to you. But how much risk others want to assume for themselves and their families is up to them.

Freedom, actual freedom, means some people will do and say things that are completely legal that you won't be comfortable with and where you just don't agree with the choice. That's real freedom. That's what freedom costs. Because those people might have to endure **** from you they don't like as well.

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:Look, I am African-American and after seeing the B.S. that was Trump, I can envision a time in this Country when I might need to take up arms to defend my liberties against the government. However, I see no reason why we cannot have simply gun control laws. We have a 21-year age limit in most states on alcohol, but an 18 year old can go and buy an AR-15 assault rifle!! That makes no logical sense to me. We need to implement age limits on these guns and background check requirements along with 3-day cool off periods. The mental health aspect should be addressed too, but you cannot just focus on mental health. There also has to be changes in the gun laws. We also should impose higher taxes on gun manufactures just like we do with alcohol and tobacco for the harm they cause, and we should have more gun-buy back programs and gun amnesty laws to encourage people to get illegal guns off the streets. These are all simple things that I think 80% of Americans would approve off if the Republicans stopped blocking all attempts at gun control.

Defend yourself against Trump?

Look at the video above, that **** happened in New York. That was just some random guy and his grandmother in a car going about their lives when that **** happened. That could have been me. That could have been you. That could have been any one of you. What if it was one of your kids? What if it was one of the children of the other people here? And these ****bags knew the guy in the car probably didn't have a gun since it was NY. How is that gun free zone **** working out now? And if this was Texas, do you think these jackoffs would have tried this?

Close to 50 million legal firearms were purchased just in the last two and a half years in this country. Many by first time gun buyers. Many of those say they didn't want a gun in their house but they didn't feel they had a choice anymore, they were fearful of people harming them and their children. Many were women, many were minorities, many were people who look NOTHING like what many here imagine as MAGA loving Trump supporters.

You can't blame Trump for everything. He's been out of office heading on two years now. How long will people want to bang the "Blame Trump" drum?

Do you know why the Democratic Party doesn't push hard to keep raising the age limit on gun ownership? First, there are Constitutional issues, the 2nd is there will be a natural push afterwards to raise the minimum voting age. Why just gun ownership? Why not raise the age limit for everything normally associated with 18 year olds?

That would cost the Democrats elections and they just won't do that. I'm not going to pretend Republicans are free from corruption and stupidity. But some of you want to act like Democrats operate in some Ivory White Tower Of Good And Wonderfulness with free cotton candy for everyone and it's only those evil ****ers in the GOP that will destroy this country.

That kid in the car in the video above with his grandmother. Is he a Republican? Is he a Democrat? Who does he vote for in elections? What does he think about abortion? Climate change? Does it even ****ing matter when a bunch of criminal mother****ers are attacking him and threatening his life?

Would anyone here blame him if he walked out of that car with a Glock and started shooting the living **** out of those pieces of ****?

There is a ground swell of violence and outright lunatic criminal mother****ers out there the past three years. If you want to tax the living **** out of guns, go ahead. If you can get the Democratic Party to win enough elections to do that, go ahead ( Try winning those elections first after watching them **** up this economy. When people realize they will soon be paying 6 dollars for a loaf of bread, they tend to not vote for you ) Then people will just get illegal guns.

If people don't feel safe, no gun law is going to stop them when those every day working class formerly law abiding people understand when they call the cops for help, no one is coming to help them. Those people will just get some cash and buy an illegal gun instead. Or get a 3D printer and print one out. Or buy a kit and build one from a bunch of different sources.

Average hard working Americans aren't just going to lay down in the street and be mother****ing victims.

You know what "makes no logical sense to me"?

That people don't understand career criminals out there are completely bi-partisan. They don't give a single **** who you voted for in the last election. They will murder you, steal your ****, rape your daughters and burn down your life for personal entertainment.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

TripleThreat wrote:

ToddTT wrote:

A lot of respect to this man.

Steve Kerr can have any opinion he wants. But when he goes to work, he's literally surrounded all the time by armed security, private security that works for the Warriors, local law enforcement and NBA's own Global Security.

The guy in the video above, the veteran, do you think he can say the same thing?

Kerr gets to fly on customized charter jets, stay in top tier hotels and accommodations, eat gourmet level food prepared for him by a team chef, gets the best medical care in the world, has unlimited access to all kinds of things that working class people will never see, and do you think he's living in a working class neighborhood where crime might be a day to day reality?

Do you think if he or his kids are victims of a crime they'll be treated like everyone else?

Kerr is a great coach. He's had a great career. And he has the right to whatever opinion he wants. But it's easy for him to say what should or should not happen when his reality is not anywhere near the same as most other working class every day Americans.

But hey, he's another famous celebrity ****ting on all Republicans on national TV. So all must be forgiven.

The entire gun issue is incredibly complex. Kerr has a point. Many actually. But his points are NOT the only points out there worth hearing.

Steve Kerr's father was killed because he worked for the American University in Lebanon. While not victim of gun violence in the US he does have a reference.
Nalod's family member was 40 year old man murdered when he was dating women whose jealous husband had a court order to stay away but the sheriff's office failed to remove his guns, came in and shot him as he was shielding children. That man shot and killed him, his own two children, and his wifes best friend. The women? He shot her hands, arms and legs and said "now you will hurt every day of your life, no kids, no friend, no lover, and can't work!". Sick **** for sure.
Be nice if there was a back ground check, more accountabilty, laws that could have been enforced.

Its very complicated and I come from this place.
My good buddies daughter and future husband in DC were heading to the train when a car pulled over and shot him dead. No reason. He was in front of a store. She was fine. Messed her up. though. Holding hands, going to a show. Then terror. He gone.

Nalod not saying get rid of all the guns. Lets have common sense laws about who gets them and who does not. Who pays for the administration of it. And lets do what we used to do which was ban assault rifles designed to kill people.

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:Imagine a country where it's illegal for civilians to legally own firearms and/or handguns.

You don't have to imagine this, there are plenty of countries that actually employee that strategy and are successful within those parameters.

The US has allowed the flooding of the market and this is very much a self inflicted wound. 2004. That's one of the biggest inflection points in this.

Taking the position that there will always be guns and death and criminals so we might as well live with it is not attaching the problem, that's just muddying the water with noise.

Agreed.

The arguments brought up by some is the same used by every uneducated gang member across the country. "We need to arm ourselves in order to protect ourselves". "We need to have bigger weapons then the enemy around us". "If everyone had a gun than no one would attack us"
This excludes any assemblance of intelligence or common sense. Extremely short sighted and prevents any idea of a lawful society. Proponents would have us go back to the years of the wild wild west. With assault rifles replacing a six shooter. They are not intelligent enough to realize that guns lead to more violence.

As you stated, there are many actual successful case studies around the world. Both that allow guns and that do not allow guns. The countries that do not allow guns all have low violent crime rates and no mass shooting. Civilized countries do not allow gun lobbyists to fund politicians. Most have adjusted their gun laws to remove antiquated laws that were no longer relavent and did not make sense (Canada just put in a cap). Most countries have strict gun ownership requirements and tough penalties for those that use guns in criminal activity. Switzerland is a country where guns are very common and popular. Yet they have not had a mass shooting since 1976. They have strict criminal checks in order to buy a gun. They have mandatory gun training. 2 week wait periods. Ie. Common sense requirements.

This country is the only modern nation that has this issue. It is full of Shortsighted people that think the only way we can improve the issue is by arming ourselves with AR15's. Ignoring that this will result in a nation of gun welding idiots and will only make matters worse. We currently have 120 guns per 100. The next most heavily armed country is the Falkland islands who has no real police force and Yemen with 52 per 100.

Some here will have you thinking that it's not the republican control that is the issue. Perhaps they should look at which states have the highest mass shooting and gun violence rates. Hint, it's republican led states with minimal gun comtrol. They are at the top of the list when it comes to mass shootings and gun violence. They should also check out the results of the last time the government tried to put in for reform. Which was a bill largely compromised for Republicans but still only received four votes from them
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/politics/senate-gun-control-legislation-reform/index.html
Not saying one side is better because all politicians suck but pointing out facts.

IMO, the gun industry has dumbed down what it takes to be a peaceful law abiding society. They have used the Trumper mentality to capitalize on higher earnings by exploiting the ignorant. In order to have an advanced society you need higher thinking. Not the caveman mentality that has led countries to arm themselves with enough nukes to explode the planet. The majority of this country is ignorant and scared. Reason why there is so much violence. The gun companies will continue to use them to get what they want. As did Trump

BigDaddyG wrote:

Jordan Klepper is a celebrity and a comedy guy. His lifestyle does not approximate the average every day working class American citizen.

Daily Show Studios has it's own armed security. Viacom headquarters has it's own armed security. Trevor Noah has his own personal armed bodyguards. New York uses a "letter of necessity" system where basically everyone who applies is refused except for retired law enforcement and large established security agencies well known to the NYPD. Since the movie/TV industry had deep ties with big agencies like the LAPD and NYPD, this is a minor road bump for celebrities to operate under much different rules than the average person. When Klepper goes to work, he's not in the same situation as some regular working class people in a restaurant or a convenience store or some cashier somewhere.

I'm going to be fair about this. Someone like Trevor Noah gets legitimate death threats like any other big name celebrity. But I say it again and again, someone like Noah and Klepper, if they are victims of a crime, if someone can get past their armed guards, do you think they will be treated like everyone else by NYPD? Or will ESU immediately kick down someone's door over it?

"Limousine Liberals" are always the first to preach down to the working class.

Gas prices too high? Go buy an electric car instead! It's good for the environment!

One of the most interesting things about the massive swell of new gun owners in the last three years, is the number of black gun owners, especially black middle aged women. A lot of minorities, especially in the black communities, didn't take the COVID19 vaccine. Something that was often discussed was "mistrust" in the government in general. And can you blame many black Americans? Throughout history, lots of blacks were used for medical tests without their knowledge. Add in the history of slavery and segregation and racism, it's not hard to see why so many black Americans today still mistrust the government in general. The third video I posted covers some of this.

I'll say it yet again, it's a hard sell for some in this thread to keep shouting about the Trump level bogeyman lurking in the background here to take the blame for all of America's problems when you have lots of middle aged working class black women say "Fuck this ****, I'm not going to be a victim" So for some here who are hell bent in taking all guns, did some of you realize you would be disarming black people as well? Hard working tax paying good people who just want to take their own safety into their own hands. Some of you can't spend all this time talking about how bad and greedy and corrupt and cruel our government acts and still blame many people, even minorities, who want to hedge against this for themselves and their children.

It's easy for Jordan Klepper to show some flow charts or run some 2 minute sketches and tell you everything is going to be OK. But mostly he just mocks a much more complex problem impacting lots of people that he has nothing in common with at all. How about he works for a decade in a 24 hour liquor store to barely scrape by check to check and be a paycheck and half away from being homeless like many many many Americans out there? Maybe if he's got a ****ing Glock stuck right in his face 7-8 times over those 10 years, he'd feel different about people owning guns.

TripleThreat wrote:

TheGame wrote:Look, I am African-American and after seeing the B.S. that was Trump, I can envision a time in this Country when I might need to take up arms to defend my liberties against the government. However, I see no reason why we cannot have simply gun control laws. We have a 21-year age limit in most states on alcohol, but an 18 year old can go and buy an AR-15 assault rifle!! That makes no logical sense to me. We need to implement age limits on these guns and background check requirements along with 3-day cool off periods. The mental health aspect should be addressed too, but you cannot just focus on mental health. There also has to be changes in the gun laws. We also should impose higher taxes on gun manufactures just like we do with alcohol and tobacco for the harm they cause, and we should have more gun-buy back programs and gun amnesty laws to encourage people to get illegal guns off the streets. These are all simple things that I think 80% of Americans would approve off if the Republicans stopped blocking all attempts at gun control.

Defend yourself against Trump?

Look at the video above, that **** happened in New York. That was just some random guy and his grandmother in a car going about their lives when that **** happened. That could have been me. That could have been you. That could have been any one of you. What if it was one of your kids? What if it was one of the children of the other people here? And these ****bags knew the guy in the car probably didn't have a gun since it was NY. How is that gun free zone **** working out now? And if this was Texas, do you think these jackoffs would have tried this?

Close to 50 million legal firearms were purchased just in the last two and a half years in this country. Many by first time gun buyers. Many of those say they didn't want a gun in their house but they didn't feel they had a choice anymore, they were fearful of people harming them and their children. Many were women, many were minorities, many were people who look NOTHING like what many here imagine as MAGA loving Trump supporters.

You can't blame Trump for everything. He's been out of office heading on two years now. How long will people want to bang the "Blame Trump" drum?

Do you know why the Democratic Party doesn't push hard to keep raising the age limit on gun ownership? First, there are Constitutional issues, the 2nd is there will be a natural push afterwards to raise the minimum voting age. Why just gun ownership? Why not raise the age limit for everything normally associated with 18 year olds?

That would cost the Democrats elections and they just won't do that. I'm not going to pretend Republicans are free from corruption and stupidity. But some of you want to act like Democrats operate in some Ivory White Tower Of Good And Wonderfulness with free cotton candy for everyone and it's only those evil ****ers in the GOP that will destroy this country.

That kid in the car in the video above with his grandmother. Is he a Republican? Is he a Democrat? Who does he vote for in elections? What does he think about abortion? Climate change? Does it even ****ing matter when a bunch of criminal mother****ers are attacking him and threatening his life?

Would anyone here blame him if he walked out of that car with a Glock and started shooting the living **** out of those pieces of ****?

There is a ground swell of violence and outright lunatic criminal mother****ers out there the past three years. If you want to tax the living **** out of guns, go ahead. If you can get the Democratic Party to win enough elections to do that, go ahead ( Try winning those elections first after watching them **** up this economy. When people realize they will soon be paying 6 dollars for a loaf of bread, they tend to not vote for you ) Then people will just get illegal guns.

If people don't feel safe, no gun law is going to stop them when those every day working class formerly law abiding people understand when they call the cops for help, no one is coming to help them. Those people will just get some cash and buy an illegal gun instead. Or get a 3D printer and print one out. Or buy a kit and build one from a bunch of different sources.

Average hard working Americans aren't just going to lay down in the street and be mother****ing victims.

You know what "makes no logical sense to me"?

That people don't understand career criminals out there are completely bi-partisan. They don't give a single **** who you voted for in the last election. They will murder you, steal your ****, rape your daughters and burn down your life for personal entertainment.

First, I never said we should not have guns. What I said is that I don’t think is wise to allow 18 year olds to purchase Assault weapon type guns. If you don’t trust an 18 year old to buy alcohol, why would you trust them to buy a weapon designed to commit mass murder. Your whole rant on Trump is nonsensical but the point I was making is that Trump essentially attempted to take over the government by ignoring the vote and he showed why citizens should be allowed to be armed. However, some basic gun control laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of children and assault weapons out of the hands of 18-21 years who might decide they want to go shoot up the school they just graduated from, are ideas that most Americans agree with. Even accepting that you have a constitutional right to a gun that does not mean that restrictions cannot be placed on that right.