franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BillTheButcher wrote:Voted last year was an outlier, we're just not that good still.........IMHO I would look to trade Randle ,Mitch and Knox ..........Randle never should have got that contract we should have made him prove it this year + RJ and him just do not fit , Mitch looks slow AF, has not jump , has to be helped off the floor like every other play I'm over it, Knox will never get playing time here ...Don't mind losing if we did it with the young guns unleash them all RJ, IQ, Obi , Grimes, Simms call up Luka and Duece .

And this was why I wanted to keep Mike Miller - I felt like we need to build up the asset base a bit more.

It's really hard to trade Randle- we just signed him.

But I think right now, no one should be off limits as far as a trade.

What does this mean? What is Miller doing?

I thought we weren't in a position to compete, and that is what Thibs is about. I felt we needed to play the young guys, develop them rather than bring in the Roses, the Fourniers of the world. Another lottery or two and maybe we could land the kind of talent we need to compete.

Look, Dolan's mantra has been play offs or bust. He's never been about rebuilding, even though had we actually rebuilt, we'd probably have a championship by now.

Isiah Thomas said it best- he was trying to change the engine in mid flight. With NY, there was no pulling in to the pits.

Leon Rose came in, said - I want the best coach. And we will try to win now. Except there is no franchise talent on this team, no player that steps on the court and is simply the best player out there.

I want the best coach who could lose the most so we could draft franchise talent? Is that what you mean?

Instead of Thibs, last year you would have wanted Miller because....? I still don't get what Miller is bringing that someone like Thibs is not.

The Knicks brought in a ****ton of development coaches. They have also played the young guys and also built a culture. And it proved right last year?

I still don't understand what you are trying to get after, except for the fact that we do not have franchise talent.

Not for nothing but Miller did the opposite of what you were seemingly hoping for: Fiz put the Knicks on the path to really losing and Miller ****ed that up.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BillTheButcher wrote:Voted last year was an outlier, we're just not that good still.........IMHO I would look to trade Randle ,Mitch and Knox ..........Randle never should have got that contract we should have made him prove it this year + RJ and him just do not fit , Mitch looks slow AF, has not jump , has to be helped off the floor like every other play I'm over it, Knox will never get playing time here ...Don't mind losing if we did it with the young guns unleash them all RJ, IQ, Obi , Grimes, Simms call up Luka and Duece .

And this was why I wanted to keep Mike Miller - I felt like we need to build up the asset base a bit more.

It's really hard to trade Randle- we just signed him.

But I think right now, no one should be off limits as far as a trade.

What does this mean? What is Miller doing?

I thought we weren't in a position to compete, and that is what Thibs is about. I felt we needed to play the young guys, develop them rather than bring in the Roses, the Fourniers of the world. Another lottery or two and maybe we could land the kind of talent we need to compete.

Look, Dolan's mantra has been play offs or bust. He's never been about rebuilding, even though had we actually rebuilt, we'd probably have a championship by now.

Isiah Thomas said it best- he was trying to change the engine in mid flight. With NY, there was no pulling in to the pits.

Leon Rose came in, said - I want the best coach. And we will try to win now. Except there is no franchise talent on this team, no player that steps on the court and is simply the best player out there.

I want the best coach who could lose the most so we could draft franchise talent? Is that what you mean?

Instead of Thibs, last year you would have wanted Miller because....? I still don't get what Miller is bringing that someone like Thibs is not.

The Knicks brought in a ****ton of development coaches. They have also played the young guys and also built a culture. And it proved right last year?

I still don't understand what you are trying to get after, except for the fact that we do not have franchise talent.

Not for nothing but Miller did the opposite of what you were seemingly hoping for: Fiz put the Knicks on the path to really losing and Miller ****ed that up.

And quoting IT's wisdom on managerial topics is always a plus.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BillTheButcher wrote:Voted last year was an outlier, we're just not that good still.........IMHO I would look to trade Randle ,Mitch and Knox ..........Randle never should have got that contract we should have made him prove it this year + RJ and him just do not fit , Mitch looks slow AF, has not jump , has to be helped off the floor like every other play I'm over it, Knox will never get playing time here ...Don't mind losing if we did it with the young guns unleash them all RJ, IQ, Obi , Grimes, Simms call up Luka and Duece .

And this was why I wanted to keep Mike Miller - I felt like we need to build up the asset base a bit more.

It's really hard to trade Randle- we just signed him.

But I think right now, no one should be off limits as far as a trade.

What does this mean? What is Miller doing?

I thought we weren't in a position to compete, and that is what Thibs is about. I felt we needed to play the young guys, develop them rather than bring in the Roses, the Fourniers of the world. Another lottery or two and maybe we could land the kind of talent we need to compete.

Look, Dolan's mantra has been play offs or bust. He's never been about rebuilding, even though had we actually rebuilt, we'd probably have a championship by now.

Isiah Thomas said it best- he was trying to change the engine in mid flight. With NY, there was no pulling in to the pits.

Leon Rose came in, said - I want the best coach. And we will try to win now. Except there is no franchise talent on this team, no player that steps on the court and is simply the best player out there.

I want the best coach who could lose the most so we could draft franchise talent? Is that what you mean?

Instead of Thibs, last year you would have wanted Miller because....? I still don't get what Miller is bringing that someone like Thibs is not.

The Knicks brought in a ****ton of development coaches. They have also played the young guys and also built a culture. And it proved right last year?

I still don't understand what you are trying to get after, except for the fact that we do not have franchise talent.

Not for nothing but Miller did the opposite of what you were seemingly hoping for: Fiz put the Knicks on the path to really losing and Miller ****ed that up.

The window with Thibs & Leon Rose is now. I don’t see a five year plan. It’s get into the play offs, it’s win now. But we don’t have the horses to win that race. What good is the playoffs if it’s a first round exit? It’s the same problem that has plagued this franchise. We have folks that think we’re one piece away. Just sign Kemba and Fournier, that will get us over the hump.

I would have preferred Miller because to me, that would have signaled- hey, we’re not ready to compete in the big leagues- we need to develop guys. We’re not going to go out and sign a player like EF because what they bring is wasted.

I get the nonsense about creating a winning culture. But if this year continues to crater out like it’s trending, what exactly did we gain by locking up a player like EF? What did we gain by signing Kemba Walker? And locking up Randle?

What did we lose by not letting a Grimes & McBride play? Even Kevin Knox.

We gave up future cap space to win now. And we’re not winning and the players we added have actually helped with the losing.

And I give our FO credit for finding gems at the back of the draft.

But let’s play the what if game- what if we had stunk better last year- then we might have drafted Chris Duarte because we wanted him and we might have been in position to draft him.

Rather than sign Walker/Fournier, perhaps they go all in on some young player like a Gary Payton Jr.

And then this year and next would look a whole lot brighter from where I am sitting.

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

BillTheButcher wrote:Voted last year was an outlier, we're just not that good still.........IMHO I would look to trade Randle ,Mitch and Knox ..........Randle never should have got that contract we should have made him prove it this year + RJ and him just do not fit , Mitch looks slow AF, has not jump , has to be helped off the floor like every other play I'm over it, Knox will never get playing time here ...Don't mind losing if we did it with the young guns unleash them all RJ, IQ, Obi , Grimes, Simms call up Luka and Duece .

And this was why I wanted to keep Mike Miller - I felt like we need to build up the asset base a bit more.

It's really hard to trade Randle- we just signed him.

But I think right now, no one should be off limits as far as a trade.

What does this mean? What is Miller doing?

I thought we weren't in a position to compete, and that is what Thibs is about. I felt we needed to play the young guys, develop them rather than bring in the Roses, the Fourniers of the world. Another lottery or two and maybe we could land the kind of talent we need to compete.

Look, Dolan's mantra has been play offs or bust. He's never been about rebuilding, even though had we actually rebuilt, we'd probably have a championship by now.

Isiah Thomas said it best- he was trying to change the engine in mid flight. With NY, there was no pulling in to the pits.

Leon Rose came in, said - I want the best coach. And we will try to win now. Except there is no franchise talent on this team, no player that steps on the court and is simply the best player out there.

I want the best coach who could lose the most so we could draft franchise talent? Is that what you mean?

Instead of Thibs, last year you would have wanted Miller because....? I still don't get what Miller is bringing that someone like Thibs is not.

The Knicks brought in a ****ton of development coaches. They have also played the young guys and also built a culture. And it proved right last year?

I still don't understand what you are trying to get after, except for the fact that we do not have franchise talent.

Not for nothing but Miller did the opposite of what you were seemingly hoping for: Fiz put the Knicks on the path to really losing and Miller ****ed that up.

The window with Thibs & Leon Rose is now. I don’t see a five year plan. It’s get into the play offs, it’s win now. But we don’t have the horses to win that race. What good is the playoffs if it’s a first round exit? It’s the same problem that has plagued this franchise. We have folks that think we’re one piece away. Just sign Kemba and Fournier, that will get us over the hump.

I would have preferred Miller because to me, that would have signaled- hey, we’re not ready to compete in the big leagues- we need to develop guys. We’re not going to go out and sign a player like EF because what they bring is wasted.

I get the nonsense about creating a winning culture. But if this year continues to crater out like it’s trending, what exactly did we gain by locking up a player like EF? What did we gain by signing Kemba Walker? And locking up Randle?

What did we lose by not letting a Grimes & McBride play? Even Kevin Knox.

We gave up future cap space to win now. And we’re not winning and the players we added have actually helped with the losing.

And I give our FO credit for finding gems at the back of the draft.

But let’s play the what if game- what if we had stunk better last year- then we might have drafted Chris Duarte because we wanted him and we might have been in position to draft him.

Rather than sign Walker/Fournier, perhaps they go all in on some young player like a Gary Payton Jr.

And then this year and next would look a whole lot brighter from where I am sitting.

Everything your saying we should have done, we did already, young coaches, young players, high draft picks, which leads to a high turnover

The NBA is a 3 yr window( which is the length of the contracts of most of our player) not a 5 yr plan...this is not the 90"s

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Blow it up or fire Thibs?

Its like satire... but without the humor or whit

How quickly the fickle fanbase flips on this team.......

You can switch and mix and match this and that but you cant escape the simple fact that the Knicks are struggling because RJ and Randle and struggling. They were our two workhorses last year on both sides of the ball

Look at their #s from last year vs. this year. Like yeah there's Kemba this and more Obi that... but the problem is our two best players are not hitting shots. Thats important in basketball.

player	FG%	3p%
Randle	0.456	0.411
Randle	0.434	0.322
RJ	0.441	0.401
RJ	0.396	0.31

"thats why I wanted Mike Miller"

yeah... wow.

franco12 wrote:The window with Thibs & Leon Rose is now. I don’t see a five year plan. It’s get into the play offs, it’s win now. But we don’t have the horses to win that race. What good is the playoffs if it’s a first round exit? It’s the same problem that has plagued this franchise. We have folks that think we’re one piece away. Just sign Kemba and Fournier, that will get us over the hump.

I would have preferred Miller because to me, that would have signaled- hey, we’re not ready to compete in the big leagues- we need to develop guys. We’re not going to go out and sign a player like EF because what they bring is wasted.

I get the nonsense about creating a winning culture. But if this year continues to crater out like it’s trending, what exactly did we gain by locking up a player like EF? What did we gain by signing Kemba Walker? And locking up Randle?

What did we lose by not letting a Grimes & McBride play? Even Kevin Knox.

We gave up future cap space to win now. And we’re not winning and the players we added have actually helped with the losing.

And I give our FO credit for finding gems at the back of the draft.

But let’s play the what if game- what if we had stunk better last year- then we might have drafted Chris Duarte because we wanted him and we might have been in position to draft him.

Rather than sign Walker/Fournier, perhaps they go all in on some young player like a Gary Payton Jr.

And then this year and next would look a whole lot brighter from where I am sitting.

A lot to unpack here.

I am wondering where you go to see every team's plan or how you determine if they have one or not? Also, please let us know which teams you think do not strive for winning more than the previous year and do not strive for playoffs.

There are not too many players you draft and become instant turn-arounds; these things usually take 5-7+ years, just look at either Phoenix or Milwaukee. Also, there are plenty of teams that you build with development and trade them away to get high lottery talent, just look at Brooklyn or the Lakers.

I get the notion that young guys may need playing time to get better, but you also have to acknowledge that getting playing time in a winning environment is even better; there is not one strict path to developing players via minutes played.

Give or take, Leon and Thibs have had the team/organization for 1+ years and in that first full year, they hit a proverbial homerun, I don't know how you can otherwise frame it. MIP in Randle, tremendous progress with their 1 high lottery pick, Coach of the year, 4th seed. They spun trade gold with Rose. IQ looks like an incredible draft at 25. Defense was tremendous.

Because the team has faltered over the first quarter of this season... blow it up cause it's doom city?

Under the CBA and how players choose to move to new teams, the free agent market is not what you think it is, and in particular this year and next. I do think optimizing your salary space and dollars was better used this off-season by spending it; you can absolutely quibble in hind-sight if they used it on the best player.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Blow it up or fire Thibs?

Its like satire... but without the humor or whit

How quickly the fickle fanbase flips on this team.......

nah its the vocal minority I think... but yeah man, damn.

You can switch and mix and match this and that but you cant escape the simple fact that the Knicks are struggling because RJ and Randle and struggling. They were our two workhorses last year on both sides of the ball

Look at their #s from last year vs. this year. Like yeah there's Kemba this and more Obi that... but the problem is our two best players are not hitting shots. Thats important in basketball.

player	FG%	3p%
Randle	0.456	0.411
Randle	0.434	0.322
RJ	0.441	0.401
RJ	0.396	0.31

"thats why I wanted Mike Miller"

yeah... wow.

Give it another week of this type of play, and these blow it up threads will start turning into

TheGame wrote:Lol. Yeah, let’s fire the coach of the year 20 games in.

Whoever wants to fire Thibs is an idiot.

SergioNYK wrote:

TheGame wrote:Lol. Yeah, let’s fire the coach of the year 20 games in.

Whoever wants to fire Thibs is an idiot.

Can we fire the fans? I think certain people in this fan base needs an overhaul. Our patience is running thin…I get it. Part of the reason is all the FO and head coaching changes. Hard to build a culture with so much turnover from the top down. The only common denominator are the fans. Everything has been changing so frequent. Each change is another do over. And results take time. Longer than NY minute. But where would this site be, without all the turmoil?

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:The window with Thibs & Leon Rose is now. I don’t see a five year plan. It’s get into the play offs, it’s win now. But we don’t have the horses to win that race. What good is the playoffs if it’s a first round exit? It’s the same problem that has plagued this franchise. We have folks that think we’re one piece away. Just sign Kemba and Fournier, that will get us over the hump.

I would have preferred Miller because to me, that would have signaled- hey, we’re not ready to compete in the big leagues- we need to develop guys. We’re not going to go out and sign a player like EF because what they bring is wasted.

I get the nonsense about creating a winning culture. But if this year continues to crater out like it’s trending, what exactly did we gain by locking up a player like EF? What did we gain by signing Kemba Walker? And locking up Randle?

What did we lose by not letting a Grimes & McBride play? Even Kevin Knox.

We gave up future cap space to win now. And we’re not winning and the players we added have actually helped with the losing.

And I give our FO credit for finding gems at the back of the draft.

But let’s play the what if game- what if we had stunk better last year- then we might have drafted Chris Duarte because we wanted him and we might have been in position to draft him.

Rather than sign Walker/Fournier, perhaps they go all in on some young player like a Gary Payton Jr.

And then this year and next would look a whole lot brighter from where I am sitting.

A lot to unpack here.

I am wondering where you go to see every team's plan or how you determine if they have one or not? Also, please let us know which teams you think do not strive for winning more than the previous year and do not strive for playoffs.

There are not too many players you draft and become instant turn-arounds; these things usually take 5-7+ years, just look at either Phoenix or Milwaukee. Also, there are plenty of teams that you build with development and trade them away to get high lottery talent, just look at Brooklyn or the Lakers.

I get the notion that young guys may need playing time to get better, but you also have to acknowledge that getting playing time in a winning environment is even better; there is not one strict path to developing players via minutes played.

Give or take, Leon and Thibs have had the team/organization for 1+ years and in that first full year, they hit a proverbial homerun, I don't know how you can otherwise frame it. MIP in Randle, tremendous progress with their 1 high lottery pick, Coach of the year, 4th seed. They spun trade gold with Rose. IQ looks like an incredible draft at 25. Defense was tremendous.

Because the team has faltered over the first quarter of this season... blow it up cause it's doom city?

Under the CBA and how players choose to move to new teams, the free agent market is not what you think it is, and in particular this year and next. I do think optimizing your salary space and dollars was better used this off-season by spending it; you can absolutely quibble in hind-sight if they used it on the best player.

I didn't vote to blow it up- though I would have preferred a different approach to team building last year and this year.

However, I'm all for a trade to shake things up, see if we can unlock better performance.

We have too many guys with 'eh' talent.

I think Dame Lillard, Simmons should be on our radar - and in years past, I would have said not to trade RJ - but that is off.

I think the only untouchable player in my mind is IQ. And you know what, for the right package, I give him too!