TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Cant say I won’t enjoy watching Obi make a lot of people look stupid next year

For the third time - List a practical NBA baseline skill that Toppin possesses that translates into value into the modern Space And Pace style game.

Obi positives - he plays fast, passes and cuts well, and improved his outside shooting as the season progressed. In college he dominated weaker divisional play with his speed/athleticism - this has not translated well in the NBA. I think he can be a pick an pop rim runner in a motion offense. His defense was poor (not as atrocious as originally thought). Not saying he will be great, but if you're going to criticize him you have to acknowledge that we drafted him and completely ignored his strengths in how we used/played him this season. We put him on the 3 pt line while Randle ran his ISO offensive sets. The biggest reason I'm not a Randle fan is that everyone else has to stands around outside to give Randle enough space to do his ISO - that's a terrible offensive style that reminds many here of 2016 Melo... Also, maybe a bit unfair to judge Toppin as a rookie when he's being compared to Randle who only showed how to break your leg in his rookie season. It literally took Randle 3 seasons to show any definable skill that you use as your criteria above.

TripleThreat wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Cant say I won’t enjoy watching Obi make a lot of people look stupid next year

For the third time - List a practical NBA baseline skill that Toppin possesses that translates into value into the modern Space And Pace style game.

Obi positives - he plays fast, passes and cuts well, and improved his outside shooting as the season progressed. In college he dominated weaker divisional play with his speed/athleticism - this has not translated well in the NBA. I think he can be a pick an pop rim runner in a motion offense. His defense was poor (not as atrocious as originally thought). Not saying he will be great, but if you're going to criticize him you have to acknowledge that we drafted him and completely ignored his strengths in how we used/played him this season. We put him on the 3 pt line while Randle ran his ISO offensive sets. The biggest reason I'm not a Randle fan is that everyone else has to stands around outside to give Randle enough space to do his ISO - that's a terrible offensive style that reminds many here of 2016 Melo... Also, maybe a bit unfair to judge Toppin as a rookie when he's being compared to Randle who only showed how to break your leg in his rookie season. It literally took Randle 3 seasons to show any definable skill that you use as your criteria above.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randlju01.html

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/julius-randle-15359/cash-earnings/

You want to do a cross comparison of Obi Toppin with Randle?

OK, let's do that. The Lakers spent the 7th overall pick in the 2014 draft for Randle. They spent 13-14 million dollars total, the roster spot, the minutes, the coaching, the rehab after he got injured, and the learning curve where Randle made mistakes and went through his growing pains at the cost of the Lakers seeking wins.

Did they get any trade value out of him? No.

Did they get any benefit from all the time, sweat, investment, coaching, minutes and franchise resources when Randle hit his upside? No.

What was the Lakers role in Randle's development? THEY WERE A FARM TEAM SO ANOTHER FRANCHISE COULD REAP THE BENEFITS

The Pelicans for one year and the Knicks in Randle's 2nd year in NY gave some solid production. They soaked up the value add of what Randle could give WITHOUT having to eat all the rookie growing pains and cost as the Lakers did.

So what is the pathway for Obi Toppin then? That he either busts completely OR, if he pans out somewhat, that the Knicks will only be the bitch boy farm team that spends money, a roster spot, minutes, valuable coaching and blood/sweat/pain to develop him, only to see him finally prove to be of use to SOME OTHER TEAM?

What are his strengths? He plays fast? Just say it straight - For his size, Obi Toppin RUNS FAST IN A STRAIGHT LINE. He also JUMPS HIGH for his size. He is a good passer on occasion, but is that a practical NBA baseline skill ( passing is one thing, being an actual SECONDARY PLAYMAKER is entirely different issue and much more important. Let's also not ignore the issue that Toppin is a low BBIQ player and has a broken handle) He cuts well? If he has the wide open floor to maneuver. How does that happen? In transition. How do you create transition opportunties? Make defensive stops. Can Toppin help make defensive stops? No.

Can Toppin defend the rim? No

Can Toppin space the floor with a consistent above average three point shot? No

Can Toppin consistently create his own shot? No

Can Toppin operate as the primary ball handler and run the offense? No

Do you want me to keep going down the list?

The above are practical baseline skills.

Toppin is an offense first/offensive only player who honestly sucks at offense. His upside is being developed on the Knicks dime and time to maybe one day benefit another team. That's the CEILING. The floor is being a total bust like Knox and Frank N.

It's Randle's fault that Toppin is completely unskilled? It's Thibs fault that Toppin is completely unskilled? At what point, for some of you, not all, but the same guys running the same excuse circle like they did for DSJr, Knox, Frank N, and on and on and on, does Toppin have to answer for his own shortcomings?

Playing fast is a valuable skill as increasing the tempo usually encourages better ball movement and provides advantages that we have not bee using (eg Mitch athleticism in half court sets). Randle is clearly more skilled so there is no comparison - but the end result is less ball movement, guys camped at the 3pt line and praying Bullock and Burks shoot well enough to allow Randle the space he needs to operate. I don't dislike Randle as he's a hard worker and seems to be a good teammate - but I don't think the way he plays helps the Knicks much of the time. He holds the ball and doesn't make quick decisions - he did improve from the previous season when he was almost considered a bust signing.

On to your claims

Can Randle defend the rim - NO.
Can Toppin space the floor - actually he improved as the season went on so that answer is yet to be determined.
Does Toppin need to operate as the primary ball handler and run the offense? Should I ask who can jump higher?

I actually prefer a guard dominating the ball as they usually play faster and make quick decisions. Offense moves faster and is less predictable (eg see Hawks).

I also think if you're going to make these type of comparisons - than how about comparing Randle during his rookie or even 2nd season - since Toppin was a rookie this year right? Maybe we give Toppin 2 full seasons to show progress before we declare he's useless? Also, we didn't in any way use Toppin to his existing strengths this season. In college he posted, ran the floor, etc... last season because the offense was built around Randle - Toppin mostly camped out around the 3 pt line (clearly not his college strength). Only a few times was he used to post up - mostly garbage put back dunks and cuts. Time will tell if that's all he can do but you can't deny we didn't really help show his strengths. I was encouraged that he kept quiet, played hard and wasn't as atrocious defensively as we all thought. He even improved his outside shooting as the season progressed.

In the end what matters is how Randle or Toppin impacts the team overall. Randle (at 27) is clearly better than Toppin at this point - and maybe will always be better. Better doesn't always mean best fit though, as I don't believe Randle's play is best for RJ (he's not a 3pt shoooter like Bullock) or Mitch. I think Randle has overachieved and will would only work if he resigned for a moderate amount and became our 2nd/3rd offensive option. I am hopeful RJ may be able to take over for Randle's facilitating in another season. I will always side with a 20 year old that is already way ahead developmentally vs the 27 year old that recently came into his own.