ESOMKnicks wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:Been saying this one for a while - the Warriors are "all in" as they plan to ride Steph, Klay and Draymond out until they rebuild in a few years. While I agree they should hold onto Wiseman the talk here (live in Bay Area) is that as good as Wiseman will become - they want a playoff veteran to better complement their core as they have a limited time window. The W's views of Wiggins (and Oubre) have fluctuated all season long as both have played very well at times - and also struggled mightily at times. I really believe the W's want to find a veteran vs taking another high draft choice.

First of all, the Warriors won championships with a Dray-Klay-Steph core, so they do not really need to make an "all in" move to be a contender next season. Second, Randle is a great player, second all-NBA, but not an "all in" move. KD is an all-in move. Harden is an all-in move. Kawhi is an all-in move. Randle is a very marginal improvement for them. Not worth a lottery pick for the Warriors. They are much better off counting on continued improvement by Wiseman, plus contributions from two lottery rookies, who would not only supplement a strong contender core, but also start a gradual transition towards a longer-term future beyond Dray-Klay-Steph. Without having to go through a sucky rebuild period.

Well I live here in the Bay Area and the talk is all about adding a veteran presence as after the injuries and aging - they recognize the rest of the league has caught up to them. So while I agree that they should keep Wiseman and young players - that's not what it talked about here. All those players you mentioned are great/better but are not available to the Warriors. The only other player talked about a lot out here is Beal as they always want to add more shooting. Randle would offer them a lot as they don't have any inside play or interior scoring on the post. Randle would probably be able to match his improved outside shooting since he wouldn't have to carry the load every night. With the W's it's mostly outside shooting or lobs to rim runners. Again, I agree they should keep any young players - but the majority of talk radio, news articles, etc has the Warriors looking to make a trade as opposed to adding more young talent.

Jimbo5 wrote:How can the knicks trade up in this draft now that the draft positions are set?

A couple of trade ideas i saw-

1. Knicks get #14; the worriors get 21 and 32.

2. Knicks get #9 and buddy hield; kings get 19, 21, 32 and Frank.

If the first trade works i would like that better. Maybe Bouknight or Kispert is available at 14 or maybe Davion mitchell falls to 14 with his height now listed at 6'1.25" with shoes. If they get a PG at 14, maybe target Duarte. But if they can get Kispert at 14, maybe they can get sharife Cooper(he may have had a growth spurt he is officially lister almost 6'4.75" with shoes. I think that would be a good haul for the knicks.

Actually the second trade might give similar results, the knicks can draft a pg at 9 and also get a shooter in Hield. Thibs might want a veteran ahooter like hield, the first trade appeals to me more

gradyandrew wrote:

Chandler wrote:I have super mixed feelings about Randle ATM. Biggest concern is when he tries to be The Man he is at his worst, dribbling into double teams, dumb mistakes etc. And yet to some big extent he needs to be The Man if he's going to get paid that way. I admit i might be overreacting to his playoff performance. But it wasn't just the poor numbers. His confidence wilted. In contrast i felt RJ had more warrior in him

Randle was the man this season putting up numbers that few in NBA history and none in Knicks history have leading a team projected as worst in the league to the 4 seed. He had lots of great moments all year, it wasn't a mirage.

If you want to hold the playoffs against him- fine. He could have shot better but the Knicks Lost because they never found an answer for Trae and Capela. Thibs showed who he is, stubborn. Rather than try Frank on Trae or a spread 5 with Obi and Randle, it was 3 straight losses of watching the Knicks lose the same way.

Your first paragraph is true. I was very happy for Knicks and Randle. I also personally have a bit of an asterisk on the season, as we avoided significant injuries outside of Robinson, and didn't get any covid related absences to the degree other teams had.

my issue with Randle in playoffs is not he shot poorly. it's he pussed out. he wilted. He couldn't assert any part of his game. (he's not the first guy to have this happen) And when he tried to adjust to that, he adjusted to the old, dumb Randle, not the Randle we saw during the season. Knicks have a tough decision. Was this just a situation of playing poorly at the wrong time, or is this a situation of a guy of incapable of playing at that high level, when you're in a series and the opponent has all that extra time to gameplan against you?

If it were me i would not be resigning him this offseason. I need more input

fwk00 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

Chandler wrote:I have super mixed feelings about Randle ATM. Biggest concern is when he tries to be The Man he is at his worst, dribbling into double teams, dumb mistakes etc. And yet to some big extent he needs to be The Man if he's going to get paid that way. I admit i might be overreacting to his playoff performance. But it wasn't just the poor numbers. His confidence wilted. In contrast i felt RJ had more warrior in him

Randle was the man this season putting up numbers that few in NBA history and none in Knicks history have leading a team projected as worst in the league to the 4 seed. He had lots of great moments all year, it wasn't a mirage.

If you want to hold the playoffs against him- fine. He could have shot better but the Knicks Lost because they never found an answer for Trae and Capela. Thibs showed who he is, stubborn. Rather than try Frank on Trae or a spread 5 with Obi and Randle, it was 3 straight losses of watching the Knicks lose the same way.

I share the same trepidation Chandler expresses about Randle. Old Randle is still in there somewhere.

Thibs' refusal to try Frankie on Trae is just coaching malfeasance IMO. Rose was hurt and playing on fumes. Payton checked out a month earlier and nobody else was doing anything offensively.

The crime is that Frankie was denied any playoff minutes. Virtually none. I think that's a bridge that was burned before our very eyes. Frankie should go just about anywhere else or just pack up for Europe rather than do another season of this. Career, suicide.

As for Randle, it would be nice if teams, instead of reflexively offering MAX on every player who has a good year, could find contractual numbers that aren't MAX or nothing.

The other curiosity about Randle's playoff meltdown was that our -cough- coach of the year had Zero effect on correcting Randle or the game adjustments. Its not ALL on Randle and something to keep an eye on is the ever-so-cozy relationships between the coach and underperforming but favorite players. Its a recipe for mediocrity.

Philc1 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

Chandler wrote:I have super mixed feelings about Randle ATM. Biggest concern is when he tries to be The Man he is at his worst, dribbling into double teams, dumb mistakes etc. And yet to some big extent he needs to be The Man if he's going to get paid that way. I admit i might be overreacting to his playoff performance. But it wasn't just the poor numbers. His confidence wilted. In contrast i felt RJ had more warrior in him

Randle was the man this season putting up numbers that few in NBA history and none in Knicks history have leading a team projected as worst in the league to the 4 seed. He had lots of great moments all year, it wasn't a mirage.

If you want to hold the playoffs against him- fine. He could have shot better but the Knicks Lost because they never found an answer for Trae and Capela. Thibs showed who he is, stubborn. Rather than try Frank on Trae or a spread 5 with Obi and Randle, it was 3 straight losses of watching the Knicks lose the same way.

I share the same trepidation Chandler expresses about Randle. Old Randle is still in there somewhere.

Thibs' refusal to try Frankie on Trae is just coaching malfeasance IMO. Rose was hurt and playing on fumes. Payton checked out a month earlier and nobody else was doing anything offensively.

The crime is that Frankie was denied any playoff minutes. Virtually none. I think that's a bridge that was burned before our very eyes. Frankie should go just about anywhere else or just pack up for Europe rather than do another season of this. Career, suicide.

As for Randle, it would be nice if teams, instead of reflexively offering MAX on every player who has a good year, could find contractual numbers that aren't MAX or nothing.

Let’s be fair, Thibs did play Frankie one entire minute in game 1

Actually it was less than a minute but hey

Yeah the way they treated him and didn’t even move him at the deadline for a second. It felt like career homicide

wargames wrote:Yeah the way they treated him and didn’t even move him at the deadline for a second. It felt like career homicide

How did the Knicks and Thibs treat Frank Ntilikina?

He had FOUR SEASONS ( longer if you count the pandemic timeline) to take a starting job and make it his own. It's not like the Knicks were so overwhelmed with talent that even a league average player couldn't have taken an opening slot. He had all that time to improve his game.

He didn't. Often he'd dribble the ball up the court, hand it off, then jog around like an *******.

Watch Steph Curry. Not all his accolades, but watch him relentlessly move off the ball. No matter what. No matter if he knows the guys on the floor with him can't help him. Did it as a rookie, does it now. Curry could jog around the rest of his career and no one would say **** about it. But he works and works.

You want more minutes? Attack the mother****ing cup every once in a while. Be a relentless dog at all times. I think Patrick Beverley is a total *******. However whatever he has in him, it's all left on the floor each night. Set a pick and put someone on the ****ing ground. Show some actual life and some fight in you. This lollygagging **** doesn't work for a guy with the limited skill set of a Frank N. Of course Thibs won't play him. If you look like a lazy mother****er, you'll get the best seat in the house for a lazy mother****er - the bench.

I don't want to hear Frank N's excuses. Every player in every sport has to overcome something. Everyone faces some unfairness. Everyone is tossed in some kind of unideal situation. You make the most you can out of what you have in front of you today.

Can anyone here say that in four seasons, that Frank N was the hardest working most relentless dog of a player on entire roster? Can anyone?

Then Frank N has only himself to blame. You cannot control how much God given talent you have. You can control being passionate about the game. Being relentless. Striving to find any and all edges against your competition. What did Jeremy Lin do while sitting on the bench. He worked and worked and worked. He found outside coaching help. He did everything asked of him. When he got a few minutes here and there he gave it 500 percent. And when his chance came, he struck and made sure no one could take him off the floor.

How did the Knicks cheat Frank Ntilikina more than he cheated himself?

Lazy mother****er hands off the ball like he's running a Wishbone offense then jogs like a muffin top soccer mom on her way to Starbucks. Minutes from Thibs? He's lucky Thibs didn't punch him in the face.

Like I said, Frank N is like a cousin you have great affection for because of time involved, but he really needs to get his **** together and move the **** out of your house. I cannot wait for him to be gone. So I can stop hearing excuses for him. And if he succeeds with another team, it will be because he finally chose to WORK RELENTLESSLY in a way he did not with the Knicks. Even if your team is ****, your owner is ****, your coach is **** and your teammates are **** - you still have your own personal and professional integrity. You work like a dog for you and to honor your duty to the game itself.

This is not a question of production, it's a question of sweat equity.

I've seen geriatric retired little old ladies in Brooklyn who can barely move that are shuffle power walking and show more effort in three minute bursts than Frank Ntilikina did in four seasons with the Knicks.

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:Yeah the way they treated him and didn’t even move him at the deadline for a second. It felt like career homicide

How did the Knicks and Thibs treat Frank Ntilikina?

He had FOUR SEASONS ( longer if you count the pandemic timeline) to take a starting job and make it his own. It's not like the Knicks were so overwhelmed with talent that even a league average player couldn't have taken an opening slot. He had all that time to improve his game.

He didn't. Often he'd dribble the ball up the court, hand it off, then jog around like an *******.

Watch Steph Curry. Not all his accolades, but watch him relentlessly move off the ball. No matter what. No matter if he knows the guys on the floor with him can't help him. Did it as a rookie, does it now. Curry could jog around the rest of his career and no one would say **** about it. But he works and works.

You want more minutes? Attack the mother****ing cup every once in a while. Be a relentless dog at all times. I think Patrick Beverley is a total *******. However whatever he has in him, it's all left on the floor each night. Set a pick and put someone on the ****ing ground. Show some actual life and some fight in you. This lollygagging **** doesn't work for a guy with the limited skill set of a Frank N. Of course Thibs won't play him. If you look like a lazy mother****er, you'll get the best seat in the house for a lazy mother****er - the bench.

I don't want to hear Frank N's excuses. Every player in every sport has to overcome something. Everyone faces some unfairness. Everyone is tossed in some kind of unideal situation. You make the most you can out of what you have in front of you today.

Can anyone here say that in four seasons, that Frank N was the hardest working most relentless dog of a player on entire roster? Can anyone?

Then Frank N has only himself to blame. You cannot control how much God given talent you have. You can control being passionate about the game. Being relentless. Striving to find any and all edges against your competition. What did Jeremy Lin do while sitting on the bench. He worked and worked and worked. He found outside coaching help. He did everything asked of him. When he got a few minutes here and there he gave it 500 percent. And when his chance came, he struck and made sure no one could take him off the floor.

How did the Knicks cheat Frank Ntilikina more than he cheated himself?

Lazy mother****er hands off the ball like he's running a Wishbone offense then jogs like a muffin top soccer mom on her way to Starbucks. Minutes from Thibs? He's lucky Thibs didn't punch him in the face.

Like I said, Frank N is like a cousin you have great affection for because of time involved, but he really needs to get his **** together and move the **** out of your house. I cannot wait for him to be gone. So I can stop hearing excuses for him. And if he succeeds with another team, it will be because he finally chose to WORK RELENTLESSLY in a way he did not with the Knicks. Even if your team is ****, your owner is ****, your coach is **** and your teammates are **** - you still have your own personal and professional integrity. You work like a dog for you and to honor your duty to the game itself.

This is not a question of production, it's a question of sweat equity.

I've seen geriatric retired little old ladies in Brooklyn who can barely move that are shuffle power walking and show more effort in three minute bursts than Frank Ntilikina did in four seasons with the Knicks.

You win. Nobody is arguing anymore.

Frankie needs to get away from this organization.

What will be, will be.

Nothing in your argument explains his benching against Trae Young in that ****-show of a playoff.

Exactly, the way he was written off and Thibs ran the same schemes against the Hawks was ridiculous. He probably gone, but it’s insane we couldn’t even get a second rounder for him by trading him.

Randle 20 no extension
RJ 6.6
Noah 6.4 yeah
Obi 5.1
Knox 5.8
Robinson 1.8
Quickley 2.2
Pelle 1.7
Vildoza 3.3
Two rookies 4
Rose 9 FA hold
Bullock 4.8 FA hold
Taj 4 FA hold
Renounce Frank, Burks, Noel

Total Salary 77 million, cap 116 million, cap space 39 million.

An optimistic take on the season- through thick and thin the Knicks competed with the top teams in the conference. The playoffs we're bad luck but at least at 32 years old we saw Derrick Rose can still perform at a high level. The Knicks struggled to generate easy points inside after Robinson went down. If Robinson can play, maybe Knicks win the season. Development wise, RJ, IQ, Obi could take a leap next season, maybe Kevin knox shows something. The draft gives us a chance to add more depth.

In terms of filling out the roster, we keep the holds for Rose, Taj, and Bullock. We can sign them for deals starting at 13.3, 7, and 5.8 respectively after we hit the cap.

I like this team, I think this is the beginning of a good run for the franchise. Last time we were here was 2012. The mistake then was the Bargani trade and a deterioration of the locker room. My feeling, let's role with it.

Off season FAs:
Dinwiddie 20
Burks 8
Noel 8
Frank 3 (maybe)

Knicks closers:
Robinson/ Randle/ Barrett/ Dinwiddie/ Rose

Rotation:
Dinwiddie/ Rose/ Vildozs
Barrett/ Quickley/ Ntilinka
Bullock/ Burks/ Knox
Randle/ Toppin/ Gibson
Robinson/ Noel/ Pelle

fwk00 wrote:
Nothing in your argument explains his benching against Trae Young in that ****-show of a playoff.

Thibs doesn't trust him and didn't trust him.

Team synergy happens on two levels. One level is the "core" of the team. The second level is the entire roster. The established rotation had roles and expectations and assignments. Frank N didn't earn a role in the core with his play.

When Joe Torre won his first championship with the Yankees, what was the bullpen?

7th - Jeff Nelson
8th - Mariano Rivera
9th - John Wetteland

If the Yankees could get 6 strong innings from their starters, you were ****ed. Bob Wickman pitched some long relief and mop up and Jim Mecir picked up some garbage time innings so Nelson and Rivera could be saved for high leverage/critical games.

Jim Mecir was on the team but not part of the core.

You don't put Mecir in high leverage playoff situations when he's done nothing to earn that during the regular season, not by choice, not like Nelson and Rivera.

Ntilikina benched himself with his play. All year long. All of his Knicks career actually. And let's not pretend one player was going to lock down Trae Young. He has plus plus range as a gunner. He has a killer first step and is a good decision maker with the ball. He is like Kyrie Irving in that he has **** shot selection but still finds a way to make circus shots while being draped by multiple defenders. The floor spacing Young creates plus the bevy of shooters on that roster only made him more dangerous. Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Frank N wouldn't have locked down Young on his own. Even prime Gary Payton would have a hard time with Trae Young currently with the rules and style of play as constructed. What Frank N would have done was grind the offense down to a halt, even moreso than the Knicks actual struggles. Hand off the ball and jog around like an *******. The idea that Frank N is some kind of mythical defender is bull****. He's not Ben Wallace, he's not Rodman or Mutombo, he's not Draymond Green, he's not Gary Payton, he's not even in the sub tier like a prime Tony Allen or Andre Roberson.

Frank Ntilikina benched himself. No one took anything from him. His lazy ass play and don't give a **** attitude took away all his opportunities.

What the **** is up with the issue of EARNING playing time? Toppin wants to get in the game? EARN some ****ing minutes. Frank N wants to come forward and try to shut Young down? Play the entire season like you want to EARN those minutes.

The complaints seem to be Thibs won't GIVE Frank N any minutes. You aren't given ****. You TAKE minutes when you produce and keep producing and your coach trusts you. Maybe Frank N thinks like some of you, that he should be GIVEN minutes without earning them. Which might explain why he plays like such an ******* most of the time.

What happens now? Someone points out a quarter in some random game where Frank N decided to give a ****? You want to EARN minutes, you also need to provide some kind of consistency in a role.

If the Yankees bullpen is battered in 96, you don't stop putting Wetteland, Rivera and Nelson out there in critical moments, you don't suddenly decide Mecir needed to be pitching the 8th and 9th inning regularly.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.