Kemet wrote:How come three players (Iverson, Ken Martin, and Camby) who were a big piece on taking their previous team to the FINALS could not get pass the first round with Ball-Hogging Melo on the Denver Nuggets several times ???

2) Iverson played only three games for Denver the season they went to the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS. He was traded for Billups shortly after the season began.

3) Camby wasn't on the team that went to the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS.

4) Denver trades Iverson for Billups and the team got better and advanced to the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS. But their previous lack of playoff success was Melo's fault? It sounds more like Iverson was the piece that held them back.

Any more fake news you want to try and advance?

Kemet wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Kemet wrote:

doomed wrote:why would any sane Knicks fan "want" to trade Randle? Forget this crap about how great he is or isn't. We know he's a plus player at the PF position. We know there aren't that many PFs in the game that can bring more than what Randle can bring to this team. Yes, he struggled in this series but why are so many fans looking to just dump this guy? 3-4 games doesn't erase the value of Julius Randle. It doesn't erase how improved a player Randle is.

He's still on a cheap deal. He NEVER gets hurt. The dude averaged 23, 10 and 6! Let that sink in.

You're only trading Randle if you're getting a clear cut super star guard in return and even then, I am only trading Randle for that player if I know for sure I cannot get that same player without dealing Randle.

Fans can't wait to make doomsday declarations after a fu*&ing week of games. Can't wait to say this guy can't cut it or that guy is a living legend before the ink is even wet on the guy's career.

Randle needs help. Want Randle to play better in these playoff games? Perhaps we should add a player around him that the opposition doesn't LOL at. Barrett? Please. Barrett is a nice little player that can't carry an offense if his life depended on it. Maybe he gets there one day, but I wouldn't bet on it. His skill set doesn't come close to that kind of player.

If we had 2 Randle's, we're still playing. Don't get rid of the only guy on this team that sniffs an all star game just because he cost you money on draftkings.

Patrick Ewing couldn't get it done in the playoffs either. Learn from history!

Thibs traded for D.Rose to put D.Rose in the Knicks starter lineup.
D.Rose refuse to be in the starter lineup. Why?
When Thibs finally talked D.Rose into getting into the starter lineup in the playoff .. no more to be said.

I wonder what Randle stats would be like if he average 30 minute per game like the average NBA stars?
It won't be near the 23, 10, 6
Plus under pressure Randle has not improve his derelict 4th qtr. performance.
Randle like Melo never played the PF position for the Knicks, and both of their performances are 4th quarter losers when they receive ball on offense.
No star FA came to the Knicks having Melo always playing the PG, and no star FA will come to the Knicks having Randle always playing the PG!
Recall .. Melo ask Denver to trade him because super-star PG Billups took the ball out of his hands.
Melo and Randle have no Game down-low as a PF on offense/defense, especially in the postseason games.
I'm happy Thibs team defense & D.Rose high scoring made Randle an allstar, now that Randle receive the MIP award .. Randle's value has triple .. Trade Randle asap, or be stuck with another ball-hogging PG Melo, name Randle !!!

Wow, you have a vivid imagination. You realize Billups came to NY with Melo, right? You realize they both talked about the cohesiveness they had on the court together, right? Anything else you want to make up and post?

Yeah, we all watched how Amare & Billups freeze Melo out of regular season games and the playoffs LOL
We all know Melo had something to do with the departure of PG-Billups and PG-Linsanity.
Billups never got a chance to play a whole season with the Knicks.
The Knicks STINK up the court the next season without Billups.
The feud with Billups & Melo also involved the Nuggets interim head coach who gave Melo the greenlight to run point-forward thoughout the season to get Blown-out in the first round of the playoffs, after the previous season going to the WCF under Billups.
We got rid of Rivers cause he didnt fit into Randle's game performance. Now River's a starting PG in the 2nd round of the playoff

2) The Knicks were 42-40 (.512) the year Melo and Billups arrived mid-season. They went 14-14 (.500) when Melo played after the trade. The next season after Billups was let go they went 36-30 (.545) during the shortened lock out season. So their winning percentage was actually BETTER the season without Billups.

3) Adrian Dantley took over for George Karl after the all-star break when Karl was diagnosed with cancer. After the all-star break Melo's average shots per game and his usage rate actually dropped slightly.

4) We did not get rid of Rivers because he "didn't fit into Randle's game performance." We got rid of Rivers because he stunk most of the time when he played here except for 1.5 big games he had against Utah. Good for Rivers that's he doing well playing for a better team.

I assuming you're write fiction as your full time job?

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Welpee wrote:
Yeah, because just like in the past we can count on the Knicks getting lucky in the lottery right? I guess the strategy should be tank every season until the ping pong balls finally work in our favor? The powerball approach to building a team.

Either that or build a wall to prevent the Gulf Stream from turning east towards Europe, then NYC will get the same sunny subtropical climate as Southern California or Florida, and superstar FAs will willingly take their talents here.

Btw, some were never Randle fans/supporters(myself) despite his overachieving play this season. Some jumped off the Randle bandwagon when they saw how limited he really was during the playoffs. I personally think he deserves a hefty salary but as a Knick fan first - I probably wouldn't go that route as it ties up too much cap space which would prevent us from acquiring a #1 star for Randle to play off of. Those of you that say he's the best we got are correct - but loyalty now due to the fact that we have a poor history with player loyalty won't get us anywhere but mediocrity. Randle is very good but not great. The roster needs work so it's clearly not all on him but at the end of the day the goal is to improve the team. Confusing to me why many fans here criticized the team when we kept trying the same approach against the Hawks and then after losing - want to keep the same approach by building around Randle in the future. If he were 19/20 I would say maybe he just needs time to grow as he hasn't taken his lumps yet - but he's 26/27 and has been in the league for long enough to not stink of the joint over 5 consecutive games. Kawhi's backs were up against the wall and he comes back with 45 - Randle who some seem to think is anywhere close to that level couldn't score 25 against the Hawks when the intensity increased.

You either believe Randle is the guy, resign him to big contract and try to surround him with enough player/talent that complements him so we can try to ride him to the 2nd round of the playoffs OR you realize that while he played his butt off this year - this season's accomplishments (at age 26) don't leave much room for likely/continued growth into that superstar player teams build around. He's a solid piece that can carry the team in spurts, but not one of those guys you grossly overpay because he's a top 10 player. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter what fans deserve or what our history says - we either make the best decision for our organization or we don't.

While I'm fine with keeping him (provided he adjusts to a 2nd option, resigns at a reasonable rate and we look for a bigger fish) or trading him in the right deal - I sincerely hope that the team shifts away from the offensive approach that allowed an average defensive team to shut our entire offense down. I totally believe the Knicks will extend him if Randle agrees - but I sure hope he doesn't and we re-evaluate at the end of next season.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Welpee wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Welpee wrote:
Yeah, because just like in the past we can count on the Knicks getting lucky in the lottery right? I guess the strategy should be tank every season until the ping pong balls finally work in our favor? The powerball approach to building a team.

Either that or build a wall to prevent the Gulf Stream from turning east towards Europe, then NYC will get the same sunny subtropical climate as Southern California or Florida, and superstar FAs will willingly take their talents here.

As long as you're on record has thinking our strategy should be to tank every year until we get lucky in the lottery.

If you find that record, I would certainly like to see it.

Tanking in a year of a generational draft, when your team is not built to contend or even get far in the playoffs, in my view, would have been the right strategy.

1) Tank the season.
2) Rely on the lottery and hope that you end up picking high enough to draft one of these "generational" talents.
3) Hope that this "generational" talent actually ends up being as good as projected, because there have been quite a few of these projected "generational" talents that weren't as good as advertised.
4) And if it doesn't work out, just rinse and repeat the tanking cycle until it does, provided there's "generational" talent in the draft, which just about every draft is projected to have. That's the rebuilding plan, right?

Look, I get it. If the team is bad and we have no shot at winning then why not increase your odds of moving up in the draft (though that has never worked for us). But this mentality of thinking it's better to tank than make the playoffs with a record 10 games over .500 will never sit well with me. Beside, we have assets we can leverage that can potentially yield a pick in the lower part of the lottery if there's a player we are really sold on. I honestly don't see us keeping and using both 1st round picks in the upcoming draft.

That is my drea scenario for next year. There is still a chance it might happen how ever slim it may be.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Jimbo5 wrote:The FO better sign Randle to a long term deal. Bith Randle and RJ will double down on the offseason workouts and will be even better next season for that!

I admire Randle and RJ for their work ethic and dedication, as they logged the most and the second most minutes in the NBA last season, respectively. However, there also comes a point where dedication meets the laws of physics and the laws of biology. The laws of physics tell us that for every action there is a reaction. And for every jump and run, there is a landing, and a force of a hardwood floor recoiling through people's limbs and backs. And the laws of biology tell us that muscles, ligaments and bones in the human body tend to wear out with too much stress. So there is a limit on how you can work and how strong conditioning is going to be. And if you cross this limit, chronic fatigue and injuries will happen.

So counting on Randle and RJ to do even more without getting them help is not a strategy. There is some upside from them learning to play smarter, rather than even harder, but that is not going to be enough to propel us into contention status.

Another possibility is don’t do anything with Randle, let him play next season and then try to sign Lebron and/or other UFA’s after next season and go over the cap to resign Randle

The 2010 Heat/Riley/Wade approach

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Welpee wrote:
So rather than win, make the playoffs, and begin to establish the foundation for a winning culture moving forward, your strategy would be:

1) Tank the season.
2) Rely on the lottery and hope that you end up picking high enough to draft one of these "generational" talents.
3) Hope that this "generational" talent actually ends up being as good as projected, because there have been quite a few of these projected "generational" talents that weren't as good as advertised.
4) And if it doesn't work out, just rinse and repeat the tanking cycle until it does, provided there's "generational" talent in the draft, which just about every draft is projected to have. That's the rebuilding plan, right?

Look, I get it. If the team is bad and we have no shot at winning then why not increase your odds of moving up in the draft (though that has never worked for us). But this mentality of thinking it's better to tank than make the playoffs with a record 10 games over .500 will never sit well with me. Beside, we have assets we can leverage that can potentially yield a pick in the lower part of the lottery if there's a player we are really sold on. I honestly don't see us keeping and using both 1st round picks in the upcoming draft.

Scenario 1: Tank the 2020-21 season, get Cade or Suggs or Mobley, etc. Then build around a core of RJ, Randle plus Cade or Suggs or Mobley, etc.
Scenario 2: Lose to Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs. Then build around a core of RJ, Randle and ?

I would rather have had Scenario 1. It would have put us on a longer rebuild path, but a path to contention. Scenario 2 is a path to what? Respectability? They do not hand out rings and throw parades for respectability.

The upcoming draft is definitely generational. Unlike last year's, where there was no consensus #1 pick and no clear franchise-changing talent, and no one ever calling that one a generational event, not then, not now.

You probably have to go back as far as the LeBron draft to get comparable hype, except maybe the Zion draft, because of, well, Zion.

Welpee wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

Welpee wrote:
So rather than win, make the playoffs, and begin to establish the foundation for a winning culture moving forward, your strategy would be:

1) Tank the season.
2) Rely on the lottery and hope that you end up picking high enough to draft one of these "generational" talents.
3) Hope that this "generational" talent actually ends up being as good as projected, because there have been quite a few of these projected "generational" talents that weren't as good as advertised.
4) And if it doesn't work out, just rinse and repeat the tanking cycle until it does, provided there's "generational" talent in the draft, which just about every draft is projected to have. That's the rebuilding plan, right?

Look, I get it. If the team is bad and we have no shot at winning then why not increase your odds of moving up in the draft (though that has never worked for us). But this mentality of thinking it's better to tank than make the playoffs with a record 10 games over .500 will never sit well with me. Beside, we have assets we can leverage that can potentially yield a pick in the lower part of the lottery if there's a player we are really sold on. I honestly don't see us keeping and using both 1st round picks in the upcoming draft.

Scenario 1: Tank the 2020-21 season, get Cade or Suggs or Mobley, etc. Then build around a core of RJ, Randle plus Cade or Suggs or Mobley, etc.
Scenario 2: Lose to Atlanta in the first round of the playoffs. Then build around a core of RJ, Randle and ?

I would rather have had Scenario 1. It would have put us on a longer rebuild path, but a path to contention. Scenario 2 is a path to what? Respectability? They do not hand out rings and throw parades for respectability.

The upcoming draft is definitely generational. Unlike last year's, where there was no consensus #1 pick and no clear franchise-changing talent, and no one ever calling that one a generational event, not then, not now.

You probably have to go back as far as the LeBron draft to get comparable hype, except maybe the Zion draft, because of, well, Zion.

Tell me how you can guarantee that we would get a pick high enough for scenario 1 to happen? It's a lottery. So you want to throw away a playoff season for a "hope" that the lottery works in our favor. Just about every other draft we're told it consists of "generational talent."

Let's also add to this how our own players would lose trade value, lose focus, lose career trajectories, how it would create tension between Thibs and the front office, how Dolan might have something to say about that and how the whole league would be like " same old Knicks again" all for what exactly? Another 6-8 pick? Or would you prefer pick 4? Remember what happened with our last pick 4 who we tanked for? Yeah, ohh Julius you are shooting the 3 ball lights out in practice, how would you like to spend some time on the bench so that we don't win too many games and you don't get to have a season only 2 other players in the NBA history ever had ? What's that ? You want to win the MIP award because you worked so hard in the off-season? Don't be silly, we are tanking this season!!!

Welpee wrote:Tell me how you can guarantee that we would get a pick high enough for scenario 1 to happen? It's a lottery. So you want to throw away a playoff season for a "hope" that the lottery works in our favor. Just about every other draft we're told it consists of "generational talent."

If you want a guarantee, the only place offering those is a Swiss bank, and not even there any more. For now, I can almost guarantee you Cade joining a long list of NBA superstars having their special nights at the Mecca of Basketball by killing the Knicks.

Well, at least we got to play the great Atlanta in the first round in 2021.

Many drafts have a generational talent, this one is a generational draft, i.e. having multiple players who will rule the league in the next 15 years. Like the LeBron-Melo-Bosh-Wade draft.