Panos wrote:We do all realize that Minnesota currently has Kat and DLo and they suck, right? Why would we empty the cupboards for them?

Cuz Thibs can change everyone!!! LOL
and we only give up knox, frank, and picks which are conceptual so the fantasy is intact.
Image them without best guys1!!

TPercy wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Panos wrote:We do all realize that Minnesota currently has Kat and DLo and they suck, right? Why would we empty the cupboards for them?

Seriously they are one of the worst teams in the league. They will destroy are team defense. Id rather keep Bullock and Burkes over Russell. Another combo guard is the last thing we need. We need an elite wing and a legitimate starting PG. Maybe a center if Myles Turner became available.

Yup. I’m skeptical on whether or not those guys are actually coachable.

C’mon, you know how it works. At press conference KAT and D’Russ:
“Yeah, I’m more mature now and working with Thibs again will be great”....
“I’m used to the spotlight and now going to prove to ‘y’all I’m ready to make the next step”
“I’m from Jersey, I love the garden, teh Mecca, the pollution and relentless insatiable media to tear me up”.
“This is a historic franchise and I hope to retire a knick (AKA: I want an extension)
“We always liked these guys and the opportunity to bring them in was too good to pass up”
“I coached KAT in Minny and we both grew from it”....

All those starphuch moves depend on the role guys. Nets big three are impressive but it’s the other guys that held it together.

Imagine if Lakers kept their picks, passed on Lebron and had core of Ingram, Ball, Randle, Kuzma, the D’andre Hunter pick, and the other 3 first rounders and let them develop. For sure no bubble chip but a base to build and perhaps make more moves. I know they let randle walk with BroPez for cap space used for Lebron and obviously he was not on the timeline to develop. Love the what if’s, but Randle did become special and Ingram. Is an allstar.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I agree it may be in our best interest to keep things as clean as possible for another year. TJ would be a great addition but not sure about as a starter due to being a non-factor from 3pt. Honestly I’d start Rose but make sure to have a committee behind him to keep his minutes down if we aren’t going to sign a new starting level PG. TJ just isn’t that. But I like him for this roster. You can honestly even start Burks at PG if we are concerned about Rose going up against starters.

Well you can't have the perfect PG in the starting rotation at the price where I am pinpointing. What can't you be sure about in the non-factor from 3point land? And what about all of the other positive things TJ CAN do much better than Rose in the starting lineup? One aspect of the game can't just be the only determinant IMHO.

What about their defense?
What about their ability to play near 80 games?
What about their ability to run an offense where getting the other guys involved is more important than getting your own shot?
What is changing Thib's decision THIS year versus next to start Rose?
To be fair, has Rose had a really good 35 game run at shooting from distance or has he displayed that type of consistency from 3 previous to showing up on the Knicks team?

I don't watch TJ at all but he seems like a guy who is a high metrics player. I'll let other speak to it (last article is the one to read in full, lots of videos).

From only a couple months ago:

https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-sidney-moncrief-qa

IMO, metrics do not always tell the whole story. Especially with TJ. Think watching him play in different games/scenarios is absolutely necessary to get the true picture on how he can improve a team. Especially if it's a playoff-type team looking to improve.

The way I look at it, the Knicks are no longer the 2018 Knicks. They are a talented playoff team on the verge of being elite in the NBA. Therefore, their future moves should reflect that. The 2018 Knicks were just looking for decent low-cost players that could maybe outplay their contracts. ie TJ or Cam. I get it, it's been a long time as bottom feeders so it's hard to change the mindset. For me, the 2021 Knicks need to add pieces to take them over the top and become elite. TJ and Payne do not fit that plan.

In terms of TJ as a player, metrics, and watching him play. Some may only remember when TJ had some great minutes against us a few years ago but watching TJ play over the years and in Indy this year, he seems like a player that loses his effectiveness the longer he is on the floor. He is a quick sneaky off-the-ball defender but his man-to-man defense is not strong. Especially against bigger PG's (Which is most PG's) He does have good court awareness and knows to get the ball to the key players. Is he a player that I would want to have, for example, going into a playoff series with the Hawks in the first round. Just don't think so. Would probably rather have Payton. Yes, Efrid Payton. Mostly because of his size and strength differential on defense. So no way I can consider him a starting-level PG. Unless we are looking to go back to our 2018 Knicks expectations. So, what about as a stopgap? As mentioned on other threads, I do not think the Knicks are in need of a stopgap PG. We just made a decent commitment to Luca. My prediction is that Luca is going to surprise a lot of people. Been watching his film and think his BBall IQ is elite. I think he is much better than TJ or Payne. We would also have Rose, if resigned, and he seems to be a level above stopgap. If we need more stopgaps then would rather keep Burks and have IQ fill additional minutes if needed. My point is that I would prefer upgrades over laterals. Who are they? Trusting the Knicks FO to let us know. While us armchair GM's guess on so many.

IMO/Hope, the Knicks will resign the guys that have played well this year and look to add pieces that would considerably move the needle. Do not think a lateral move for a player, that may prove not to fit or contribute as much as the ones ALREADY here, is wise. Of course, we have to see how much guys like Burks, Bullock, and Rose will demand. Hopefully, we can keep them. Think that will/should be the Knicks first priority in the offseason.

Still love where the Knicks are. Think they have finally turned the corner on perception and may be thought of as a more favorable destination. They have talented young players with true potential. Agree/hope that the Knicks will stay on the path of not Starphucking for older or overhyped players. But think/hope they will keep an eye out for true difference makers and will not be afraid to make a move if an opportunity presents itself.

I think one of the premises of my thread is that summer 2022 is a bit more talented in the FA market and you can also maximize your cap space if you wait an additional year.

All you have really countered with is you would like to upgrade this summer to become elite but haven't really identified a path or even players (outside of maybe starting Luca?) cause the FO will just sort it out?

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I agree it may be in our best interest to keep things as clean as possible for another year. TJ would be a great addition but not sure about as a starter due to being a non-factor from 3pt. Honestly I’d start Rose but make sure to have a committee behind him to keep his minutes down if we aren’t going to sign a new starting level PG. TJ just isn’t that. But I like him for this roster. You can honestly even start Burks at PG if we are concerned about Rose going up against starters.

Well you can't have the perfect PG in the starting rotation at the price where I am pinpointing. What can't you be sure about in the non-factor from 3point land? And what about all of the other positive things TJ CAN do much better than Rose in the starting lineup? One aspect of the game can't just be the only determinant IMHO.

What about their defense?
What about their ability to play near 80 games?
What about their ability to run an offense where getting the other guys involved is more important than getting your own shot?
What is changing Thib's decision THIS year versus next to start Rose?
To be fair, has Rose had a really good 35 game run at shooting from distance or has he displayed that type of consistency from 3 previous to showing up on the Knicks team?

I don't watch TJ at all but he seems like a guy who is a high metrics player. I'll let other speak to it (last article is the one to read in full, lots of videos).

From only a couple months ago:

https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-sidney-moncrief-qa

IMO, metrics do not always tell the whole story. Especially with TJ. Think watching him play in different games/scenarios is absolutely necessary to get the true picture on how he can improve a team. Especially if it's a playoff-type team looking to improve.

The way I look at it, the Knicks are no longer the 2018 Knicks. They are a talented playoff team on the verge of being elite in the NBA. Therefore, their future moves should reflect that. The 2018 Knicks were just looking for decent low-cost players that could maybe outplay their contracts. ie TJ or Cam. I get it, it's been a long time as bottom feeders so it's hard to change the mindset. For me, the 2021 Knicks need to add pieces to take them over the top and become elite. TJ and Payne do not fit that plan.

In terms of TJ as a player, metrics, and watching him play. Some may only remember when TJ had some great minutes against us a few years ago but watching TJ play over the years and in Indy this year, he seems like a player that loses his effectiveness the longer he is on the floor. He is a quick sneaky off-the-ball defender but his man-to-man defense is not strong. Especially against bigger PG's (Which is most PG's) He does have good court awareness and knows to get the ball to the key players. Is he a player that I would want to have, for example, going into a playoff series with the Hawks in the first round. Just don't think so. Would probably rather have Payton. Yes, Efrid Payton. Mostly because of his size and strength differential on defense. So no way I can consider him a starting-level PG. Unless we are looking to go back to our 2018 Knicks expectations. So, what about as a stopgap? As mentioned on other threads, I do not think the Knicks are in need of a stopgap PG. We just made a decent commitment to Luca. My prediction is that Luca is going to surprise a lot of people. Been watching his film and think his BBall IQ is elite. I think he is much better than TJ or Payne. We would also have Rose, if resigned, and he seems to be a level above stopgap. If we need more stopgaps then would rather keep Burks and have IQ fill additional minutes if needed. My point is that I would prefer upgrades over laterals. Who are they? Trusting the Knicks FO to let us know. While us armchair GM's guess on so many.

IMO/Hope, the Knicks will resign the guys that have played well this year and look to add pieces that would considerably move the needle. Do not think a lateral move for a player, that may prove not to fit or contribute as much as the ones ALREADY here, is wise. Of course, we have to see how much guys like Burks, Bullock, and Rose will demand. Hopefully, we can keep them. Think that will/should be the Knicks first priority in the offseason.

Still love where the Knicks are. Think they have finally turned the corner on perception and may be thought of as a more favorable destination. They have talented young players with true potential. Agree/hope that the Knicks will stay on the path of not Starphucking for older or overhyped players. But think/hope they will keep an eye out for true difference makers and will not be afraid to make a move if an opportunity presents itself.

I think one of the premises of my thread is that summer 2022 is a bit more talented in the FA market and you can also maximize your cap space if you wait an additional year.

All you have really countered with is you would like to upgrade this summer to become elite but haven't really identified a path or even players (outside of maybe starting Luca?) cause the FO will just sort it out?

“Wait” isn’t really a plan. It’s technically the lack of a plan. Who are you signing in 2022? What are you trading for those guys if they become available during the season?

My plan is “don’t force it but try to strategically improve this offseason”. Equally as ambiguous. My best guess is to sign Ball to an Offer Sheet for 18.5m and see what he really costs. Sign Norman Powell. I really only have him valued at 15m per, so if it costs much more, I am out. Check the pricing on Jaren Jackson. Check value on Frazier. If I am drafting, I like Dosunmu and Greg Brown in that range 19/21 pick range. I’m ok trading back

I believe all players mentioned have residual value that could be used after December to pick up one or more of the 2022 class.

Honestly, fortune changes so quickly in this league. Feel like they should use every opportunity to improve. The actuality of signing players this offseason has to have more merit than the possibility of signing different players next.

My use it or lose it approach is disproven by your chart. Outright. But the possibility of these guys this year plus the MLE next plus the trade capabilities that still exist? I want to build around this team now.

I did detail that in the opening post. Did you read it in full?

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I agree it may be in our best interest to keep things as clean as possible for another year. TJ would be a great addition but not sure about as a starter due to being a non-factor from 3pt. Honestly I’d start Rose but make sure to have a committee behind him to keep his minutes down if we aren’t going to sign a new starting level PG. TJ just isn’t that. But I like him for this roster. You can honestly even start Burks at PG if we are concerned about Rose going up against starters.

Well you can't have the perfect PG in the starting rotation at the price where I am pinpointing. What can't you be sure about in the non-factor from 3point land? And what about all of the other positive things TJ CAN do much better than Rose in the starting lineup? One aspect of the game can't just be the only determinant IMHO.

What about their defense?
What about their ability to play near 80 games?
What about their ability to run an offense where getting the other guys involved is more important than getting your own shot?
What is changing Thib's decision THIS year versus next to start Rose?
To be fair, has Rose had a really good 35 game run at shooting from distance or has he displayed that type of consistency from 3 previous to showing up on the Knicks team?

I don't watch TJ at all but he seems like a guy who is a high metrics player. I'll let other speak to it (last article is the one to read in full, lots of videos).

From only a couple months ago:

https://www.nba.com/news/defensive-player-ladder-sidney-moncrief-qa

IMO, metrics do not always tell the whole story. Especially with TJ. Think watching him play in different games/scenarios is absolutely necessary to get the true picture on how he can improve a team. Especially if it's a playoff-type team looking to improve.

The way I look at it, the Knicks are no longer the 2018 Knicks. They are a talented playoff team on the verge of being elite in the NBA. Therefore, their future moves should reflect that. The 2018 Knicks were just looking for decent low-cost players that could maybe outplay their contracts. ie TJ or Cam. I get it, it's been a long time as bottom feeders so it's hard to change the mindset. For me, the 2021 Knicks need to add pieces to take them over the top and become elite. TJ and Payne do not fit that plan.

In terms of TJ as a player, metrics, and watching him play. Some may only remember when TJ had some great minutes against us a few years ago but watching TJ play over the years and in Indy this year, he seems like a player that loses his effectiveness the longer he is on the floor. He is a quick sneaky off-the-ball defender but his man-to-man defense is not strong. Especially against bigger PG's (Which is most PG's) He does have good court awareness and knows to get the ball to the key players. Is he a player that I would want to have, for example, going into a playoff series with the Hawks in the first round. Just don't think so. Would probably rather have Payton. Yes, Efrid Payton. Mostly because of his size and strength differential on defense. So no way I can consider him a starting-level PG. Unless we are looking to go back to our 2018 Knicks expectations. So, what about as a stopgap? As mentioned on other threads, I do not think the Knicks are in need of a stopgap PG. We just made a decent commitment to Luca. My prediction is that Luca is going to surprise a lot of people. Been watching his film and think his BBall IQ is elite. I think he is much better than TJ or Payne. We would also have Rose, if resigned, and he seems to be a level above stopgap. If we need more stopgaps then would rather keep Burks and have IQ fill additional minutes if needed. My point is that I would prefer upgrades over laterals. Who are they? Trusting the Knicks FO to let us know. While us armchair GM's guess on so many.

IMO/Hope, the Knicks will resign the guys that have played well this year and look to add pieces that would considerably move the needle. Do not think a lateral move for a player, that may prove not to fit or contribute as much as the ones ALREADY here, is wise. Of course, we have to see how much guys like Burks, Bullock, and Rose will demand. Hopefully, we can keep them. Think that will/should be the Knicks first priority in the offseason.

Still love where the Knicks are. Think they have finally turned the corner on perception and may be thought of as a more favorable destination. They have talented young players with true potential. Agree/hope that the Knicks will stay on the path of not Starphucking for older or overhyped players. But think/hope they will keep an eye out for true difference makers and will not be afraid to make a move if an opportunity presents itself.

I think one of the premises of my thread is that summer 2022 is a bit more talented in the FA market and you can also maximize your cap space if you wait an additional year.

All you have really countered with is you would like to upgrade this summer to become elite but haven't really identified a path or even players (outside of maybe starting Luca?) cause the FO will just sort it out?

Responded to post and disagreed with the view that the Knicks should or will go after Payne or TJ. Gave reason why they should/will not.

In regards to the thread topic. I guess doing nothing this summer can be considered a plan. But I do not think the Knicks FO will do that after watching the team improve to this level and feeling they are close to becoming a true contender. Although I did not directly address the thread topic, I did mention a plan in my post above. Which seems to have points similar to yours. As stated above, first I would resign the players that have come in and changed the culture and have made this team successful. ie. Rose, Burks, Bullock, Gibson, Noel. Second, I would stay away from starphucks and overpriced overhyped players. Think we agree on that. Third, I would keep an eye out for a true difference-maker if one becomes available. ie. Kahwi. Yes, I know, slim to none. Would also add that, of course, I hope we draft some good players.

In terms of possible FA signings. I have mentioned several players on other threads that I would like the Knicks to acquire. Powell, Devonte Graham. Nunn, Dinwiddie, Trent Jr. are all players who I think are upgrades. Admittedly, two of those may become overpriced and noncost effective. One that, as you mentioned, is coming off his second knee surgery. In terms of having a realistic conversation regarding what players should or will be added we first have to wait to see how the cap is affected by resigning several players. How draft plays out? Which players opt-out of current contracts? Who is made available via trade? The last which only the Knicks FO will know about. The reason why I said I trust them to make the right decision. I'd be okay if the Knicks do stay pat in free agency, resign players mentioned and take on contracts for more picks and kill it in the draft. But again, I see them being more aggressive.

gradyandrew wrote:My feeling is that a KAT trade is the future target. For the foreseeable future the Eastern conference runs through Milwaukee and Philly and unless the Knicks plan on injuries to the opposing Stars, KAT is one of the few guys in the league who can hang with Embiid and Antekounompo. Maybe Robinson becomes that guy but I'm not sure.

Luckily we have already seen that injuries affect Embiib. And Milwaukee is an older team right now who need to prove they can get past Miami

foosballnick wrote:Kawhi or bust (one can dream). Seriously, if the Clips fail early in the playoffs, wondering if it will give extra incentive for him to exercise his option.

I can't deny his talent, past performance or heart. I can the salary demand and load management. Talent is never too much but the present is Randle as its his team. RJ is the future. This will change but for now I don't think I want a Kawahi that cannot carry his team past a first round. Its just one game and there are 6 more games to potentially play.
If Hawks are for real do we see it as our failure or the hawks success? I know our homercentric tendancy is "We Here". Well, so are they.
Should knicks really change theiir timeline (we are not privy to BTW!) becaue we finished 4th, or do they continue the plan which inucludes many intangible variants as thats what teams do?
4th is also dependent on other teams also. THe metric should be "the benchmarek of success is you accomplish your goals". If others failed that doe not really change the course does it? One series vs atl should not change the narrative. Get to the finals? How did we get there? Did the a path of injury and luck pave the path or did we simply outplay the field?

foosballnick wrote:Kawhi or bust (one can dream). Seriously, if the Clips fail early in the playoffs, wondering if it will give extra incentive for him to exercise his option.

1. Kawahi is not leaving LA

2. If he does it isn’t to come here

gradyandrew wrote:

IMO/Hope, the Knicks will resign the guys that have played well this year and look to add pieces that would considerably move the needle. Do not think a lateral move for a player, that may prove not to fit or contribute as much as the ones ALREADY here, is wise. Of course, we have to see how much guys like Burks, Bullock, and Rose will demand. Hopefully, we can keep them. Think that will/should be the Knicks first priority in the offseason.

Still love where the Knicks are. Think they have finally turned the corner on perception and may be thought of as a more favorable destination. They have talented young players with true potential. Agree/hope that the Knicks will stay on the path of not Starphucking for older or overhyped players. But think/hope they will keep an eye out for true difference makers and will not be afraid to make a move if an opportunity presents itself.

I really like the vibe expressed here. We shouldn't be surprised if Bullock, Noel, and Burks are targeted by other teams either. Those guys have had great seasons and a 10 million per deal from a team like Sacraments for one of them wouldn't be a total surprise. If Knicks keep Bullocks low cap hold, they can only resign him for 7 million if they use up all their cap space. That seems low for this season. It's questionable how many better on paper FAs will be better.

In terms of difference makers hitting FA, I think Kawhi, CP, and Conley stay but if available would be worth a vet max deal. DeRozan might be available, especially if the Knicks can reunite him with Lowry. I still don't see how SA would let him go. There offense depends on him and would be bottom 5 without him. I don't think Lowry alone is a good fit, too much redundancy with D Rose, not even really an upgrade. That leaves John Collins as the last top guy available. Collins has the right age and talent and Atlantas loss would be our gain, but as a PF it's hard to see both those guys on the same court.

Burks is the one guy i really want to bring back and boy did he show why last night. I know he’s injury prone but he is special on offense we need more guys like him

I have no problem saying bye to Bullock and even Noel. We really missed Mitch last night

gradyandrew wrote:Atlanta splurged on free Agency and the Knicks didn't. Lou Williams,and Bogdan were the x factors for Atlanta. I don't think it changes the narrative, but let's not read too much into the 2 or 3 regular season games that differentiated Miami, Indiana, Atlanta, Boston, and New York. Of those 5 the Knicks currently have the worst roster. RFA signings Of Duncan Robinson and John Collins would change that.

Only if you wanted a team who tops out at beating ALT or MIA in their current forms, otherwise it makes ZERO sense.

The point is to build a long term contender, not some Frankenstein that has zero semblance