Welpee wrote:

jrodmc wrote:You locking this thread then?

LOL, nope (not that I could).

But it's interesting how there were about 10 people advocating for Randle after last season and about 100 claiming today that they did. If Obi develops into a really solid NBA player I have a feeling a lot of the naysayers will never fess up to their comments a year from now. Or they'll stick to their guns (because a lot of folks can't ever admit to being wrong) and will try to convince people that we're not really seeing what we're seeing from Obi.

We need a searchable forum history whenever the site is updated.

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he’ll become a freak. I firmly believe that

Philc1 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I was team Toppin then, and team Toppin now. He didn’t get the NCAA tournament, he didn’t get summer league. He basically was left to his own devices and frankly hadn’t been shown how to be a pro. Well he’s been shown and he’s been putting in the work and it seems clear to me he’s getting better. He’s also not getting minutes just by virtue of Randle kicking ass and I believe leads the NBA in minutes played. Much like the RJ haters are eating crow pie now, the same thing is going to happen with Toppin. This is the first legit induction he’s had, let him learn and grow, and then once he gets the confidence that comes with that he’ll start looking like Amare 🥧

I was going to co-sign on everything you said until you dropped Amare's name. I'm an Obi guy but I'm not sure he can ever get to STAT level.

Not to nitpick, but Stat's best monster seasons, in Phoenix or NYC, were mostly playing center. I think it's possible Obi could get to Stat's PF numbers. And hopefully and most importantly, without the injury history. Nobody was ever confusing Stat with Bill Russell defensively.

Just my humble opinion, but if he continues to improve, I like the idea of seeing Randle-RJ-Obi and Mitch-Randle-Obi and Mitch-Obi-RJ front lines

Obi has the size to eventually transition to Center and he has looked faster on defense than expected after I was told since before the draft Obi couldn’t guard a Stop sign and clearly he’s capable of playing effective defense when he tries

Problem is Thibs’ system is all about defensive shot blocking Centers like Noah, Gibson, Mitch and Noel

Here’s my point about comparing him to Amare. I think their play styles aren’t a complete match. But I think their athleticism is on par. I can also visualize him on those Suns teams. Maybe the Matrix is a better analogy. Anyways, who cares, it’s semantics… he has those fast twitch muscles and he did some crazy **** in college. I watched those games and am on the record, for anyone who uses bip’s search function

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

His coach at Dayton Anthony Grant is well respected. NBA experience at OKC, was a major part of Florida's first national championship as an associate head coach under Billy Donovan, a team with at least three NBA players (Noah, Horford, Brewer). Solid head coaching record in college. So I'm not sure how you determined he didn't receive excellent coaching elsewhere.

Perhaps I was a little flippant.. I think 'program' was the more appropriate choice of words. I agree with what you said - Obi got POY under his guidance. I just think everything is A+. Dayton's resources and facilities are not, I meant no disrespect to Mr Grant

SupremeCommander wrote:
Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

Ah, yes, the history of New York, professional sports, draftees and athletic freaks of nature. No, for sure, we've never seen this before.

For Sure.

For.

Sure.

Fo Sho.

Now it's the coaching to blame.

Obi Toppin is a NBA big man who can't space the floor and can't defend the rim and nothing indicates he will project to do either well. His BBI IQ, footwork and situational awareness makes his defensive upside force a new discussion where Enes Kanter looks like Dikembe Mutombo in comparison. Some of you guys actually want Toppin to handle the pivot and spend the majority of the game defending the pick and roll? He's an older player with shaky footwork but he can probably win a slam dunk contest at some point. And he'll have lots of energy for it, since he'll be glued to a bench and be well rested since the Knicks drafted him to play for a notoriously hard line defense first / defense always coach.

But this is the fault of every coach at every level before he was drafted. OK, that makes total sense.

Devin Vassell was the "baseline" pick. I use him as a core example. Between the Toppin pick at 8th overall and Quickley at 25, the Knicks could have taken Vassell, Haliburton ( sucks he's hurt but he was productive), Poku, Saddiq Bey ( my pick) and even Tyrese Maxey/Cole Anthony/Isaiah Stewart look more useful and projectible than Toppin. Poku is actually really interesting. I mean if you were going to take a "shot in the dark" on a player's potential, why not Poku? Shit, the Knicks could have tried to trade back, picked up anything asset wise, and picked up Poku. I'm not even a huge Poku guy and standing next to Toppin, he looks like a dream pick in contrast.

I mean holy **** on a cracker, the Knicks could have reached and reached even very badly against "value for slot" and found a more projectible prospect.

I was more than fair to Frank Ntilikina for years. I saw the early flaws but hoped for the best. This is not being too hard on a rookie and expecting too much. This is about a prospect having the actual skill set to fit a projectible role in a small set of established type of role players that fit into a functional NBA rotation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/harsh-reality-of-the-modern-nba-draft-the-older-a-prospect-the-farther-he-slides/2017/06/21/9dd05960-56a2-11e7-ba90-f5875b7d1876_story.html

Why the modern NBA draft devalues more experienced college players

By Ava Wallace June 26, 2017

Danielle Cantor has a pep talk mentally filed away for all the NBA hopefuls she leads to pre-draft interviews. But as they arrived in blustery Chicago for last year’s league combine, Cantor, a partner at David Falk’s management agency, FAME, realized something about this particular client: Malcolm Brogdon didn’t need any coaching.

Certainly not on how to carry himself.

Cantor remembered whom she and Falk signed: a player who spent five years honing his on-court prowess at Virginia but whose vocabulary wasn’t limited to extolling the virtues of defensive-minded basketball. Brogdon had a master’s degree; he could talk about life experience and travel. He was eloquent, socially conscious and confident.

Cantor promised the general managers on their schedule that Brogdon would be the best interview they ever had. When they gave her feedback, the team executives not only told her she was right but that they would rather vote for Brogdon than any of the people campaigning for president at the time.

Still, Cantor steeled herself for the NBA draft. No matter how well spoken Brogdon was or how consistently he outplayed younger, higher-rated NBA prospects in spring workouts in front of teams, he was 23. In the eyes of the league’s talent evaluators, his age might as well have been a red flag on par with a known injury.

“Here [teams] are saying they’re blown away,” Cantor said, “yet he still doesn’t go in the first round. . . . Was I surprised? Not at all. Disappointed. It was a bitter pill to swallow — and it was really hard for Malcolm.”

Brogdon, now a finalist for the rookie of the year award, encapsulates how today’s NBA talent evaluators regard prospects who spent four or five years in college — which is to say, not highly. During an era in which the league’s scouts, front-office members and agents all agree that the NBA draft is becoming more like the Major League Baseball draft, in which players are selected as young as possible as clubs draft almost exclusively for a faraway future, four-year college guys are scarce among top picks.

The hottest commodity in the NBA draft nowadays is upside — a term borrowed from the stock market that in the league means a combination of raw athleticism and, most importantly, potential. Club front offices simply believe younger players have more of it.

“It has become what I said five years ago and is now cliche: It’s a baseball draft,” ESPN draft analyst Fran Fraschilla said. “You’re drafting, for the most part — teams are drafting on potential and for the future.”

Even in 2016, dubbed “the year of the senior” in college basketball for how many of the NCAA’s top players were in their fourth year at school, just two four-year college players were selected in the top seven picks, Kris Dunn and Buddy Hield. Before then, a four-year college player hadn’t been picked in the top seven since 2006.

In the year since the Milwaukee Bucks plucked Brogdon with the 36th pick, the Atlanta native has been called the steal of the 2016 draft. He has heard his name listed alongside the likes of Draymond Green and Jimmy Butler as examples of older players so many teams wouldn’t have passed on, if only they had known.

Yet Thursday’s NBA draft is likely to be more of the same. Most mock drafts project that the top seven picks will be players who spent just one year in college, and there are more freshmen past that. A few sophomores and one international teenager fill in the top 14.

That’s a stark difference from 30 years ago, when David Robinson, Scottie Pippen and Kenny Smith highlighted a 1987 draft in which the top seven picks all spent four years in school. It hasn’t happened since.

Agents with 22- and 23-year-old clients such as Cantor and Falk, who is almost militantly against the trend of prizing youth over all else, know they’re fighting uphill battles. There is some debate about how the draft came to prize the so-called “one-and-done” players. But some combination of the NBA’s 2006 age-limit rule, which prevents players under age 19 from entering the draft, and the league’s analytics boom conspired to create current conditions.

“The league is kind of in this teenage fantasy land right now,” said Reggie Brown, an agent at Priority Sports, “so when you get a kid that’s old enough to get into a club, they put an ‘old’ tag on his name.”

That’s in part because the analytics most clubs use favor raw athleticism and talent over aspects that might help players navigate the NBA like social skills and self-assuredness. Interviews are supposed to help negate that factor, but good numbers are harder to ignore than a subpar interview with a general manager or scout.

Even harder to ignore? The slew of current NBA all-stars and rising stars who left college after just one year. Take this season’s all-NBA teams: Three players who entered the league before turning 20, LeBron James, Rudy Gobert and Giannis Antetokounmpo , joined five players who played just one season of college ball.

That is the type of fact talent evaluators will point to when arguing that drafting a young kid, exposing him to other NBA players and developing him in-house — especially if a team isn’t looking for an immediate contributor — is the smart bet in today’s league. This remains the case even if NBA Commissioner Adam Silver cites young draftees’ lack of preparedness for the league as one of the reasons he wants to change the age-limit rule.

Betting on young talent is also generally safer, from the club’s perspective. Older players have medical histories — such as the foot surgery that forced Brogdon to redshirt his 2012-13 season.

“The prevalent wisdom is the longer you stay in college before you go pro, the more warts the personnel people are going to find — and you don’t want to show your warts,” said Falk, who has represented star clients, including Michael Jordan, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller. “You don’t want to become Cinderella at midnight. You want to make sure you get home before you lose the glass slipper.”

From a player’s perspective, there is little monetary reason for talented young guys to stay in school if they receive positive feedback when testing the NBA draft waters.

“Simply put, there are a lot of good reasons for these guys to come out early and start their NBA clock vis-à-vis contracts,” Fraschilla said.

It’s a cycle that leaves four-year college players for the low-first or second round of the NBA draft. The first senior whom DraftExpress.com has listed in its mock draft is a fifth-year man out of Colorado, Derrick White. He’s a versatile guard who shot 39.6 percent from the three-point line as a senior and was tasked with creating his own offense for almost his entire final year in college. He is projected to go 27th.

In the modern NBA draft, it’s bold — risky — for a team to pick a four-year college player much higher than that.

“The league personnel put a disproportionate emphasis on upside,” Falk said, “and they forget the cardinal rule of investing: The more risk, the more return.”

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

His coach at Dayton Anthony Grant is well respected. NBA experience at OKC, was a major part of Florida's first national championship as an associate head coach under Billy Donovan, a team with at least three NBA players (Noah, Horford, Brewer). Solid head coaching record in college. So I'm not sure how you determined he didn't receive excellent coaching elsewhere.

Perhaps I was a little flippant.. I think 'program' was the more appropriate choice of words. I agree with what you said - Obi got POY under his guidance. I just think everything is A+. Dayton's resources and facilities are not, I meant no disrespect to Mr Grant

I think you may want to rethink your position on the school too. Dayton is probably at the top of the list among mid-majors if any of the power conferences decide to expand again. Of course, they can't compared to Kentucky or Carolina or Kansas. But think about it, the first four round of the NCAA tournament is played at Dayton every year. That wouldn't happen if their facilities were subpar.

nope... you think Dayton is on par with the Knicks? I don't think Dayton is on par with Duke or Kentucky. I also think all the supplementary coaches and staff are not on par either. Mid majors may have made progress but yes I do not think he has benefitted from a college program in the way Randle, Quickley, or RJ benefitted at college... and there are other levels of basketball. Toppin did not play on the same types of early level teams

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

His coach at Dayton Anthony Grant is well respected. NBA experience at OKC, was a major part of Florida's first national championship as an associate head coach under Billy Donovan, a team with at least three NBA players (Noah, Horford, Brewer). Solid head coaching record in college. So I'm not sure how you determined he didn't receive excellent coaching elsewhere.

Perhaps I was a little flippant.. I think 'program' was the more appropriate choice of words. I agree with what you said - Obi got POY under his guidance. I just think everything is A+. Dayton's resources and facilities are not, I meant no disrespect to Mr Grant

I think you may want to rethink your position on the school too. Dayton is probably at the top of the list among mid-majors if any of the power conferences decide to expand again. Of course, they can't compared to Kentucky or Carolina or Kansas. But think about it, the first four round of the NCAA tournament is played at Dayton every year. That wouldn't happen if their facilities were subpar.

nope... you think Dayton is on par with the Knicks? I don't think Dayton is on par with Duke or Kentucky. I also think all the supplementary coaches and staff are not on par either. Mid majors may have made progress but yes I do not think he has benefitted from a college program in the way Randle, Quickley, or RJ benefitted at college... and there are other levels of basketball. Toppin did not play on the same types of early level teams

The bottom line is your original point portraying Toppin as if he received inferior coaching and access to only rec league-like facilities before coming to the Knicks is inaccurate. Heck, there are many power conference schools with inferior facilities if Kentucky is the bar.

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

His coach at Dayton Anthony Grant is well respected. NBA experience at OKC, was a major part of Florida's first national championship as an associate head coach under Billy Donovan, a team with at least three NBA players (Noah, Horford, Brewer). Solid head coaching record in college. So I'm not sure how you determined he didn't receive excellent coaching elsewhere.

Perhaps I was a little flippant.. I think 'program' was the more appropriate choice of words. I agree with what you said - Obi got POY under his guidance. I just think everything is A+. Dayton's resources and facilities are not, I meant no disrespect to Mr Grant

I think you may want to rethink your position on the school too. Dayton is probably at the top of the list among mid-majors if any of the power conferences decide to expand again. Of course, they can't compared to Kentucky or Carolina or Kansas. But think about it, the first four round of the NCAA tournament is played at Dayton every year. That wouldn't happen if their facilities were subpar.

nope... you think Dayton is on par with the Knicks? I don't think Dayton is on par with Duke or Kentucky. I also think all the supplementary coaches and staff are not on par either. Mid majors may have made progress but yes I do not think he has benefitted from a college program in the way Randle, Quickley, or RJ benefitted at college... and there are other levels of basketball. Toppin did not play on the same types of early level teams

So you believe if you're not on par with Kentucky or Duke it's subpar? If that's your bar you can probably put over half the league in the same boat. Based on what you posted, Knox benefitted from the same opportunities as Randle and Quickley. What happened with him?

The bottom line is your original point portraying Toppin as if he received inferior coaching and access to only rec league-like facilities before coming to the Knicks is inaccurate. Heck, there are many power conference schools with inferior facilities if Kentucky is the bar.

Receiving instruction and doing something with it are completely different

And if you think Mr Late Bloomer Toppin received an equal level of attention as other prospects there is no point in carrying on the conversation with you

He received no D1 offers, played as a fifth year HS senior, and then chose Dayton over University of Dayton over Rhode Island, Georgetown, Georgia, Texas A&M, Minnesota, and Texas Tech. Not terrible spots but it speaks to how he was evaluated

Again, he didn’t get the same basketball opportunities as most draft class peers, the end

TripleThreat wrote:Obi Toppin is a NBA big man who can't space the floor and can't defend the rim and nothing indicates he will project to do either well.

You'll have to help me understand how you came to that determination.

In college, in a small sample size and a smaller 3pt arc across 2 years, he was about 40%.

The one skillset that you mash both Melo and Wade on is their 3pt shooting but also note that all they needed to do was put in the work.

Could the same things have been said about RJ and Randle before this year? Sure they had a ton of time off but they put in the work.

What is it about Obi's shooting that he can't put in the work? Seems like his shot is slightly different already.

Also, you mention roles that he could fit into on the Knicks team, one of which is 6th man, but you anoint IQ to that role.... teams can't have 2 6th men who play entirely different positions?