Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:Totally agree about being patient...Whether its with the development of the players or the progress of this team. But, Let me counter your view about Obi...

You used Dame, Steph, CJ and Ja as examples of players dominated mid-major comp and turned out to be really good, Allstars and in some cases future hall of famers. This is true, however, the players you identified are not only guards, but each has elite, identifiable skills that you knew would translate on the NBA level regardless of the comp they played against. Ja's elite playmaking skills and ability to get into the paint at will; Dame and CJ were elite and efficient scorers who lived at the free throw line in college. Steph was a lethal 3 point shooter off the dribble and coming off screens. The issue with Obi has nothing to do with his level of comp in college but his questionable ball-skills. The players mentioned above are all skilled with the ball, while Obi's elite skill is mainly without the ball. Running the floor, and catching lobs are his skills. Typically, players who's main offensive contribution is rim-running and catching lobs off PNR's, are good to great on the other end of the floor by protecting the paint and rim. Obi, while he's not as bad as he has looked in college on the defensive end, he can still be considered a liability.

All very reasonable points. I would answer by saying (going in the "way back" machine), what would you consider to be Scottie Pippen's "identifiable skill" coming out of Central Arkansas?

Toppin has two unique qualities that I think gives him a chance: 1) his athleticism; 2) his drive/determination/work ethic. Think about what he has had to overcome to get to this point. Compare Toppin to somebody like DSJ who was anointed the "next big thing" early in high school and carried himself like stardom was a foregone conclusion. And then he hits some road blocks and the wheels fell off. Toppin may not have arrived in the pros with that "identifiable skill" like the others you mentioned, but combine his prime time athletic ability with a strong work ethic and I wouldn't be surprised if that "identifiable skill" is developed. I'm more comfortable betting on the guy who has proven he can overcome obstacles versus a guy like DSJ.

Obviously, nothing is guaranteed. Obi could end up being a bust. One thing I'm confident in saying is if Obi doesn't make it, it won't be from lack of putting the work in or any attitude/mental approach issues. Can't say the same for Knox, DSJ or Frank.

I have a different view of his athleticism. Yes he can run fast and jump high but his agility is poor. He is like those WRs who run in a straight line fast but can't get open because they don't have short area quickness. Obi is a great athlete when he is grabbing a lob out of the air but how athletic is he with the ball in his hands? Is he going to break someone down off the dribble and drive to the basket? No, in fact he looks lost in those situations. He is really stiff and top heavy. Very weak moving sideways. It limits his upside on defense especially

Isn’t explosive at all. Rarely gets to the rim, can’t go by anyone, slow laterally and doesn’t have any idea how to play.

I can’t believe they ****ed this pick up so bad. Halliburton was everyone’s pick aside from the Knicks. Just doesn’t make any sense. We also could have traded back and got Bey who was supposed to be in the lottery.

He tries hard I want the kid to succeed, but if it’s in there, you see flashes. He looks to nice out there, never gets mad, doesn’t have any real strength to push anyone around. I hope I’m wrong but doesn’t look like it.

jskinny35 wrote:He's shooting air from 3pt land because of our roster and limited spacing. Randle plays almost 37/38 minutes so he can't post when Randle is also in there. He's not good enough yet to be the focus on the 2nd unit with those remaining 10 minutes. Going to be next to impossible to play him to his strengths in this offense with this roster/starters. So in the end as much as he may turn into a solid player - he's going to largely appear to suck b/c you can't develop well playing masquerading as a 3 when you're really a 4/5. And maybe he won't turn out that good but we'll likely never know until he gets traded in a year or so...

Limited spacing? He airballed that shot with the nearest defender like 8 feet away

Nalod wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:If Phil had drafted him they'd be storming the garden with torches and pitchforks.

Phuck Phil! What did he ever do for the Knicks? Milk them for retirement money? Unless you're a LA or Bull fan who gives a sheet about Phil.

Still have yet to hear a good argument on why a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience and who insisted on pushing an offense popular in the 90s was a good hire?? This was probably one of the biggest starphucks in NY history.

Only reason I am reviving this is because it's better than yet another Frank discussion.

He thought he could make knicks respectable while rebuilding. He was wrong.
IN retrospect you can slam me with facts all day for what transpired in the aftermath. I only look at the the “why did the hire him”.

Unless your a bull or laker fan? PHil was a knick a long time ago. PHil got into coaching because Red Holzman mentored him to it. PHil had back surgery in 1970 back when it was a career ender but came back as a role player off the bench. If were were not starphhucing back in teh 90’s we should have developed him and perhaps things might have been different. Not that we get Jordan, but maybe we don’t grade Gerald Henderson for the pick that Seattle traded to Bulls that became Scotty pippen? We can what if all day long.
There was a romantic “coming home full circle” for Phil and he was going to bring it all and install his tree here. It did not work out. Regrettable.

Some good points. Although most reinforce my opinion of why Phil was a "Starphuck". After all "Starphucking" is the dream that ONE guy can come in here and magically turn things around because of what they have accomplished somewhere else. While ignoring several key factors in the decision. As you mentioned, the nostalgia behind bringing in Phil, an original Knick as the savior, added to the storyline. No doubt. But that makes my point as to why it was just a dream. (Cue Biggie soundtrack) One that ignored several key facts. One, Phil was best suited for coaching. Where he accomplished most. Albeit with Kobe, Shaq, or Jordan. But I think he said he was too old to coach. Which is the second factor ignored. He was just too old to head a rebuild. A position that requires long hours and a commitment to a long-term plan. How about FO experience? Even the Lakers, who knew him well, thought it best not to hire him for a FO position? Maybe Krause would have been a smarter dream. But I guess Dolan must have known something. Knick fans totally bought into the idea of having just a face in the FO. Ignoring what was needed for a true rebuild. The true definition of a "Starphuck"

In terms of celebrating Phil as a Knick fan. True Phil was a former Knick role player. Although I don't see any other threads celebrating our long list of former role players. Current? Millions (Frank) Not to mention, that I am not very nostalgic about how he was the guy across the way all those years in the 90"s. When we were getting our ass kicked in the playoffs. The context was "What did he do for us as a Prez"? Not much besides earn five years of inflated salary with little work.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:If Phil had drafted him they'd be storming the garden with torches and pitchforks.

Phuck Phil! What did he ever do for the Knicks? Milk them for retirement money? Unless you're a LA or Bull fan who gives a sheet about Phil.

Still have yet to hear a good argument on why a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience and who insisted on pushing an offense popular in the 90s was a good hire?? This was probably one of the biggest starphucks in NY history.

Only reason I am reviving this is because it's better than yet another Frank discussion.

He thought he could make knicks respectable while rebuilding. He was wrong.
IN retrospect you can slam me with facts all day for what transpired in the aftermath. I only look at the the “why did the hire him”.

Unless your a bull or laker fan? PHil was a knick a long time ago. PHil got into coaching because Red Holzman mentored him to it. PHil had back surgery in 1970 back when it was a career ender but came back as a role player off the bench. If were were not starphhucing back in teh 90’s we should have developed him and perhaps things might have been different. Not that we get Jordan, but maybe we don’t grade Gerald Henderson for the pick that Seattle traded to Bulls that became Scotty pippen? We can what if all day long.
There was a romantic “coming home full circle” for Phil and he was going to bring it all and install his tree here. It did not work out. Regrettable.

Some good points. Although most reinforce my opinion of why Phil was a "Starphuck". After all "Starphucking" is the dream that ONE guy can come in here and magically turn things around because of what they have accomplished somewhere else. While ignoring several key factors in the decision. As you mentioned, the nostalgia behind bringing in Phil, an original Knick as the savior, added to the storyline. No doubt. But that makes my point as to why it was just a dream. (Cue Biggie soundtrack) One that ignored several key facts. One, Phil was best suited for coaching. Where he accomplished most. Albeit with Kobe, Shaq, or Jordan. But I think he said he was too old to coach. Which is the second factor ignored. He was just too old to head a rebuild. A position that requires long hours and a commitment to a long-term plan. How about FO experience? Even the Lakers, who knew him well, thought it best not to hire him for a FO position? Maybe Krause would have been a smarter dream. But I guess Dolan must have known something. Knick fans totally bought into the idea of having just a face in the FO. Ignoring what was needed for a true rebuild. The true definition of a "Starphuck"

In terms of celebrating Phil as a Knick fan. True Phil was a former Knick role player. Although I don't see any other threads celebrating our long list of former role players. Current? Millions (Frank) Not to mention, that I am not very nostalgic about how he was the guy across the way all those years in the 90"s. When we were getting our ass kicked in the playoffs. The context was "What did he do for us as a Prez"? Not much besides earn five years of inflated salary with little work.

Krause died in 2017 at age 77. I’d guess he was well retired by 2014.
I totally describe Phil as a DOlan Starphuch.
Lakers were run by Jimmy Buss and the family/lakers were totally in turmoil in 2014. Jeannie would he hired him from what I recall but they were at each other’s throats. PHil was physically unable to handle the physical rigors due to a bad back. LOok it up. HE did not want to coach. As far as “It was a bad idea”, well yeah, it proved to be. Won’t argue with it.
Waxing the nostalgic with him? He was a role player but with the team 11 years as a player. He was “Action Jackson”. 11 years man, thats a long ass career with one team! He was tight with Red. It should have been. We so busy starphuching we never build our tree from the glory days. Granted, teams did not have assistants like they do now but there was Phil. When he retired Willis Reed hired him to be an assistant coach for nets.
Doe Phil go full Tex Winter and become the GOAT of coaching? Doubt it but he is.
Was it a good idea to have him run the Knicks? Let’s just say he really took a **** team sideways. Not like he ruined a good thing. He did not do a good job but did not leave us worse.