Welpee wrote:Prickly personality in the world's largest media market. Check.

True. A prickly personality who has a basketball grudge with a cross-town rival.
A prickly personality who would be coached by a guy who ate breakfast for years in Chicago with prickly personalities.

Welpee wrote:A player with $132 million/3 yrs left on his deal. Check.

Coming to a team that sinks that kind of money into a small army of mediocre talent.
Yes, committing that money would end the ever-so-profitable clickbait meme that somebody else's superstar still in their prime will be signable at some mythic date. If only, if only...

It's a risk. And we've been burned more often than not. But we also keep losing WAY TOO OFTEN.

Welpee wrote:Has a style of play that's doesn't make others better. Check.

The only way to make such a trade make sense is to bring in a few players who don't need their hand held.

Welpee wrote:32 years old approaching the backend of his prime. Check.

I've been waiting since the mid-seventies. I don't care how old they are. Win. And I'm a Ntilikina fan. If RW goes down, oh well.

Welpee wrote:Likely will need to move picks to get him. Check.

Disagree. The market is saturated with mutually undesirable, expensive contracts whose teams want back flexibility not an equally expensive exchange. Knicks are in a buyer's market. No need to move picks for a RW. Someone else? Maybe.

Welpee wrote:Westbrook checks all the boxes for why getting him is a bad idea. Every year a star surfaces on the trading block. I'd rather continue to be patient and build via youth and/or continue accumulate assets to make a run at a more desirable star.

He also checks a lot of boxes we barely remember.

He wins. Everywhere. He's a basketball sociopath about winning. Good lord, that's not easy to find.

After 20 years of patient, who are we waiting for again?

Oh, and a point that Hahn brought up- an aside.

Westbrook is a fashion clotheshorse. What are the chances he'd be a hit on Mad ave?

fwk00 wrote:

Welpee wrote:Prickly personality in the world's largest media market. Check.

True. A prickly personality who has a basketball grudge with a cross-town rival.
A prickly personality who would be coached by a guy who ate breakfast for years in Chicago with prickly personalities.

Welpee wrote:A player with $132 million/3 yrs left on his deal. Check.

Coming to a team that sinks that kind of money into a small army of mediocre talent.
Yes, committing that money would end the ever-so-profitable clickbait meme that somebody else's superstar still in their prime will be signable at some mythic date. If only, if only...

It's a risk. And we've been burned more often than not. But we also keep losing WAY TOO OFTEN.

Welpee wrote:Has a style of play that's doesn't make others better. Check.

The only way to make such a trade make sense is to bring in a few players who don't need their hand held.

Welpee wrote:32 years old approaching the backend of his prime. Check.

I've been waiting since the mid-seventies. I don't care how old they are. Win. And I'm a Ntilikina fan. If RW goes down, oh well.

Welpee wrote:Likely will need to move picks to get him. Check.

Disagree. The market is saturated with mutually undesirable, expensive contracts whose teams want back flexibility not an equally expensive exchange. Knicks are in a buyer's market. No need to move picks for a RW. Someone else? Maybe.

Welpee wrote:Westbrook checks all the boxes for why getting him is a bad idea. Every year a star surfaces on the trading block. I'd rather continue to be patient and build via youth and/or continue accumulate assets to make a run at a more desirable star.

He also checks a lot of boxes we barely remember.

He wins. Everywhere. He's a basketball sociopath about winning. Good lord, that's not easy to find.

After 20 years of patient, who are we waiting for again?

Oh, and a point that Hahn brought up- an aside.

Westbrook is a fashion clotheshorse. What are the chances he'd be a hit on Mad ave?

Have we really been patient? We've been chasing stars and trading picks for the past 20 years and what has been the end result? I'm ready for a different approach.

Welpee wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Welpee wrote:Prickly personality in the world's largest media market. Check.

True. A prickly personality who has a basketball grudge with a cross-town rival.
A prickly personality who would be coached by a guy who ate breakfast for years in Chicago with prickly personalities.

Welpee wrote:A player with $132 million/3 yrs left on his deal. Check.

Coming to a team that sinks that kind of money into a small army of mediocre talent.
Yes, committing that money would end the ever-so-profitable clickbait meme that somebody else's superstar still in their prime will be signable at some mythic date. If only, if only...

It's a risk. And we've been burned more often than not. But we also keep losing WAY TOO OFTEN.

Welpee wrote:Has a style of play that's doesn't make others better. Check.

The only way to make such a trade make sense is to bring in a few players who don't need their hand held.

Welpee wrote:32 years old approaching the backend of his prime. Check.

I've been waiting since the mid-seventies. I don't care how old they are. Win. And I'm a Ntilikina fan. If RW goes down, oh well.

Welpee wrote:Likely will need to move picks to get him. Check.

Disagree. The market is saturated with mutually undesirable, expensive contracts whose teams want back flexibility not an equally expensive exchange. Knicks are in a buyer's market. No need to move picks for a RW. Someone else? Maybe.

Welpee wrote:Westbrook checks all the boxes for why getting him is a bad idea. Every year a star surfaces on the trading block. I'd rather continue to be patient and build via youth and/or continue accumulate assets to make a run at a more desirable star.

He also checks a lot of boxes we barely remember.

He wins. Everywhere. He's a basketball sociopath about winning. Good lord, that's not easy to find.

After 20 years of patient, who are we waiting for again?

Oh, and a point that Hahn brought up- an aside.

Westbrook is a fashion clotheshorse. What are the chances he'd be a hit on Mad ave?

Is the goal to set ourselves up for one or two 43-44 game winning seasons or attempt to set ourselves up for sustained, long term success?

Have we really been patient? We've been chasing stars and trading picks for the past 20 years and what has been the end result? I'm ready for a different approach.

Trip started this discussion and with time I think its become worthwhile.

The way I would justify a risky venture would be to start winning at least 43 (relative to season length) games that first year. Once you reach that threshold, you can recalibrate the roster as you go. While this is an initial goal you don't have to ride a player till he drops. You can gracefully hand the baton from one to the next with continuity.

I know. Easily said and we haven't done it or done it well. I get it.

But we have to grow up sometime.

Knicks have been one of the most active teams on the trade market and FA market. They want to build a competitive team while NOT trading future assets but attaining more future assets. They are open to flipping everyone on their team that's not Mitchell Robinson or R.J. Barrett and have a soft spot for Frank (Thibs). They are open to a large number of moves.

Paul George might not be getting shopped but LAC has him up for trade if it can land them the #1 overall pick and Chris Paul or Al Horford. They even open talks on the #2 and #3 pick. DeRozan is someone they are set to add and they are dropping Harrell. They want to keep Pat Bev but he is the one SAS would be interested in for a SnT of DeRozan and he has suitors interested as well around the league especially from Milwaukee who will drop some lightly protected future 1st to prove to Giannis they can win.

Once again, Philadelphia is fairly confident they can land Paul but LAC can if they get creative with a deal like this where they can take on that salary in the CP3 and still have their full MLE to add a center. LAC has some plans and teams are realizing that LAC is not all in for anyone on their roster but Leonard who can opt out in 2021

Swishfm3 wrote:Yes w/hesitation

Only because I don't value the current "young talent" as high as seem to do here and because there aren't any potential "superstar" free agents in the next 2-3 years. At least, not any UFA...that is unless we believe we have a legit chance at G. Antetokounmpo

fwk00 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:Yes w/hesitation

Only because I don't value the current "young talent" as high as seem to do here and because there aren't any potential "superstar" free agents in the next 2-3 years. At least, not any UFA...that is unless we believe we have a legit chance at G. Antetokounmpo

Every year there's some big name guy people think we should go after, and every year there's a post on how we dodged a bullet passing on a big name guy. Westbrook would the ultimate player we would be glad we passed on. To me, Westbrook is a short term bridge to a couple of mediocre seasons and then we're back to square one with another rebuild. And I don't get the impression other top flight players are clamoring to play to Westbrook so I doubt that he's a free agent magnet.

What you say is true. We have dodged bullets in the past.

But in the past we were looking for saviors. I don't think anyone here is delusional about adding Westbrook alone being a game changer and, certainly there's the potential that a career ending injury puts the FA aspect of team building on hold.

But is that a bad thing? As Hahn and others on Knicks forums have pointed out, is there a legitimately viable, better FA on anyone's radar who isn't just another pipe dream?

Not really. All the cap space in the world still circles back to a similar kind of talent - likely a big name whose prime years are in the rear view mirror. So the argument that we continue to suck in perpetuity until Basketball Godot arrives gets crusty.

What about an injury or diminishing play? Won't we still have Barrett, MR, Ntilikina, and a handful of picks from this year and the coming drafts who will be looking at their prime years in front of them? This is a different Knicks ecosystem these days. When we had NO future, taking a bullet was fatal. Taking a bullet with our current youth asset base may be temporarily debilitating or a flesh wound.

And really, isn't this the first time we've actually been this close to landing one of these assets in a long time?

If acquiring a Westbrook with a broader roadmap of adding superior talent is in the works then I think we need to consider it.

The uglier alternative that's being considered is CP3/Melo which IMO is an option that may have me running for the exit door. That's a ship that sailed and sunk years ago.

What I fear is the new management wanting to make a splash and Westbrook is the route they choose.

Welpee wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:Yes w/hesitation

Only because I don't value the current "young talent" as high as seem to do here and because there aren't any potential "superstar" free agents in the next 2-3 years. At least, not any UFA...that is unless we believe we have a legit chance at G. Antetokounmpo

Every year there's some big name guy people think we should go after, and every year there's a post on how we dodged a bullet passing on a big name guy. Westbrook would the ultimate player we would be glad we passed on. To me, Westbrook is a short term bridge to a couple of mediocre seasons and then we're back to square one with another rebuild. And I don't get the impression other top flight players are clamoring to play to Westbrook so I doubt that he's a free agent magnet.

What you say is true. We have dodged bullets in the past.

But in the past we were looking for saviors. I don't think anyone here is delusional about adding Westbrook alone being a game changer and, certainly there's the potential that a career ending injury puts the FA aspect of team building on hold.

But is that a bad thing? As Hahn and others on Knicks forums have pointed out, is there a legitimately viable, better FA on anyone's radar who isn't just another pipe dream?

Not really. All the cap space in the world still circles back to a similar kind of talent - likely a big name whose prime years are in the rear view mirror. So the argument that we continue to suck in perpetuity until Basketball Godot arrives gets crusty.

What about an injury or diminishing play? Won't we still have Barrett, MR, Ntilikina, and a handful of picks from this year and the coming drafts who will be looking at their prime years in front of them? This is a different Knicks ecosystem these days. When we had NO future, taking a bullet was fatal. Taking a bullet with our current youth asset base may be temporarily debilitating or a flesh wound.

And really, isn't this the first time we've actually been this close to landing one of these assets in a long time?

If acquiring a Westbrook with a broader roadmap of adding superior talent is in the works then I think we need to consider it.

The uglier alternative that's being considered is CP3/Melo which IMO is an option that may have me running for the exit door. That's a ship that sailed and sunk years ago.

The thing is we don't know who may be on the market from year to year. It's not just about free agents, players become disgruntled or make it known they're not resigning and teams explore deals for them. There are solid players today who may blow up next season and become available. Obviously none of us can accurately predict the future, but is a 32 year old Westbrook the guy you want to invest in at this stage of his career? Especially if we have to give up draft assets to acquire him, similar to when we had to give up picks to get Eddy Curry and those picks ended up being Lamarcus Alridge and Joakim Noah.

What I fear is the new management wanting to make a splash and Westbrook is the route they choose.

I too fear what is not known. Berman has to spew some kind of content. Its easy to fear Dolan impatience and reactions. Nets are poised to potentially make a legit run. If Clips and Lakers made a big jump each getting a top star and able to make a big trade the Nets did similar. All depends on KD’s healthy return and the Lithium in Kyries head.

At age 31, I'd be worried about his shelf life... but if the Knicks can use him to shape a contender - let's say, playoffs, and a few potential upsets of more established teams in the next 2-3 years - I think it'd be worth the fun.

Injuries to key personnel (particularly in the playoffs) can turn a serious contender into an series loss waiting to happen. In my opinion, it's ideally if you really have built a great team, but first and foremost, you just merely need to be good first to put yourself in a position to be opportunistic.

I guess that's the lesson of the 1999 Knicks team. And that of the 2019-2020 Miami Heat. (What the Heat did with so many rookies/mismatched parts was simply amazing - I'd be surprised if they came close to matching this season's success.)