IMO, if your not in the top 5 spots, you have to draft by fit, not most talented, Miami drafts by fit, so they dont spend years developing a player to play in their system, they draft players that fit the system/culture.

I thought fizdale would bring that mind set to the knicks, instead he advised the FO to draft Knox, a guy who avg .06 assist

knicks1248 wrote:You notice how Miami moved on from the BIG 3 and may have miss the playoffs once since, with no high draft picks.

IMO, if your not in the top 5 spots, you have to draft by fit, not most talented, Miami drafts by fit, so they dont spend years developing a player to play in their system, they draft players that fit the system/culture.

I thought fizdale would bring that mind set to the knicks, instead he advised the FO to draft Knox, a guy who avg .06 assist

Knicks didn’t have a system established for players to fit into yet like Miami does. In theory the Knox pick makes sense because at 9 a big forward who is athletic and can shoot should fit anything you’re trying to do. Knox just hasn’t translated into that player yet. Who knows if he ever will but the upside is still there.

BRIGGS wrote:Miami is going to win championship

I know LeBron and Davis are great
But the cumulative parts on Miami are better
Also ban is mvp of playoffs

With Butler, Bam, and Dragic they really have 3 stars right now. And Herro is becoming at least a system star. Robinson and Crowder have served their purpose as elite role players. It really is the complete team. Honestly i'm very jealous of what they've done and much prefer a squad like this to one where superstars join forces. Obviously Butler and Dragic aren't home grown talents but it feels like a home grown squad in terms of the way their talents have come together. We all want to add superstars but my best case/pipedream scenario is that Barrett's worth ethic combined with our player development staff can turn him into 95% of the player Butler is and we can build a team with their methodology in mind. Develop Robinson to be an anchor like Bam (the offense is a stretch), maybe sign VanVleet as our version of Dragic, and find our own Herro, Robinson, and Crowder thru the draft and smart moves. But who knows. I'll dream.

Knixkik wrote:Just want to revisit this for a bit. I think it's amazing that Miami and Boston both share the same team build essentially

C Defensive Big (Bam, Theis)
PF Big Wing (Crowder, Tatum)
SF Do it Wing (Butler, Brown)
SG Wing or combo guard (Robinson, Smart)
PG Scoring PG (Dragic, Walker)
6th Do it all shooter/wing (Herro, Hayward)

So with the exception of some shooters/playmakers the teams are made up of largely multi-position defenders. They both employ the idea of really only having 3 positions on the floor; PG, 3 wings, and a defensive big. Their top 6 players are essentially a Big, a PG, and 4 wings of varying skill-sets.

So who fits from our team:

Barrett: Fits as a do-it-all, playmaking wing similar to Butler and Brown
Robinson: He's a anchor defensive big so his game makes sense if the PF next to him is a big wing (not a true big man)
Knox: He can still fit. He can shoot and plays multiple positions. He's a big wing via Tatum and Crowder but obviously has a lot of work to do on both end.
Ntilikina: defensive combo guard ala Smart. He fits fine with his ability to guard multiple positions. But he needs to learn how to shoot at 36% + from 3pt.
Harkless: He sort of fits that Crowder role, but can he shoot it well enough?
Other good fits are Bullock and Dotson: 3&D multi-position defensive players

Players who don't fit:

Randle: I don't see a path for him unless it's in a backup center role where he can fill it up for 20 mpg. As we see over the years, similar players like Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, etc eventually settle into that backup center role.
Dennis Smith: Upside is there and no harm keeping him as a backup, but there is no real path for him as a starting PG on a championship team with his inability to play off the ball. If you look at Walker and Dragic, both of them can play well on or off the ball. A PG must be able to play off the ball as great teams generate much of their playmaking from the wings.

What we need:

PG who can play on and off the ball: VanVleet, Chris Paul, and Mike Conley being the most obvious targets

Wings who can shoot: Plus if they can defend that's a bonus: Vassell is a top pick for me. Obviously Joe Harris is a FA option. A trade option is Luke Kennard.

Oversized wing for Stretch 4- If Knox really develops he fits. Bertans, Grant, and Gallinari are all FA options who fit. Crowder is a free agent but his stock is sky high. Someone like Robert Woodard shows a lot of Grant/Crowder traits as a late 1st round prospect.

So adding VanVleet or Paul and drafting Vassell is a start. As for stretch-4 the question is do we want to commit to a muli-year player like Gallinari, Bertans, or Grant, or wait it out and use Knox/Harkless or another stopgap

C Robinson
Big Wing Harkless/Knox
Wing Barrett
Wing Vassell
PG VanVleet or Paul
6th Frank

This is what we might be looking at early in the process. We won't be able to address all the needs at once.

Good analysis. Both teams have interchangeable players that play multiple positions. They also have multiple players that can make plays for themselves and others.

We have a couple of good pieces to work with. Robinson is the rim protector and rim runner. Barrett is a slasher that can play 2-3. The problem is, our interchangeable pieces can't shoot at this point in their careers. The other major element that we are lacking is that one elite wing player Tatum and Butler; players that are very difficult to get.

2-way players that can play multiple positions, can shoot and put the ball on the deck should be our main priority. players in the draft that we should be targeting at 8 are:
Vassell: Doesn't create his own shot but that will come with development and

Okoro: can guard multiple positions, can get to the basket and finish but is an inconsistent shooter. This can be developed...

If we trade down, Maxey should be our target.

Not a big fan of Vanvleet on this team. By default, he will become our #1 option and there is no way he will live up to that contract. I think he excels in the system he is playing in, surrounded by some really good players. Also, I'm not a big fan of little guards especially in a league that is switch-centric on PNRs.

Hopefully, we build this thing the right way and don't throw draft picks and prospects at a fading star....

Nalod wrote:Dragic is like 6-8 and was underrated for a long time.
Fred VV is a very different kind of player.
Dragic is a very good penetrater which opens the game for him. Super great fundamentals on space to get that shot off.
Butler kind surprised me he left PHilly and Miami had to pay up to grab him. It was a risk because Jimmy has not exactly been a great dude basically wanting out from Bulls, Minny and Philly. But it works here for us to say “Hey, this is the way to go”.
Didn’t we do this last year fawning over Toronto and Philly?
Before Durant got hurt did we not think he was ours?
Thee games with Haywood are really close. Smart back had to be an issue last night based on his body language.
Herro was amazing last night and carried that team. Otherwise the series is tied. Herro is the x-factor. That Jimmy Butler is mature to the point of letting this kid carry them says a lot.
All wrapped up by Spo who has improved as a coach over the years. Both those teams are coached well and deserve to be fighting it out. Parity in the NBA rules the day. Its fun. Next year the Nets and Warriors throw there hat in the ring.

Are we talking about the same Dragic? Dragic is a 6'3 combo guard (probably more of a PG) not unlike VanVleet. Dragic is a little more complete offensively but obviously FVV has the edge defensively. But they are similar players in the fact that they are combo guards who can play on or off the ball and spread the floor. Dragic is better now but it took him until his 30s to get to this level.

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:Dragic is like 6-8 and was underrated for a long time.
Fred VV is a very different kind of player.
Dragic is a very good penetrater which opens the game for him. Super great fundamentals on space to get that shot off.
Butler kind surprised me he left PHilly and Miami had to pay up to grab him. It was a risk because Jimmy has not exactly been a great dude basically wanting out from Bulls, Minny and Philly. But it works here for us to say “Hey, this is the way to go”.
Didn’t we do this last year fawning over Toronto and Philly?
Before Durant got hurt did we not think he was ours?
Thee games with Haywood are really close. Smart back had to be an issue last night based on his body language.
Herro was amazing last night and carried that team. Otherwise the series is tied. Herro is the x-factor. That Jimmy Butler is mature to the point of letting this kid carry them says a lot.
All wrapped up by Spo who has improved as a coach over the years. Both those teams are coached well and deserve to be fighting it out. Parity in the NBA rules the day. Its fun. Next year the Nets and Warriors throw there hat in the ring.

Are we talking about the same Dragic? Dragic is a 6'3 combo guard (probably more of a PG) not unlike VanVleet. Dragic is a little more complete offensively but obviously FVV has the edge defensively. But they are similar players in the fact that they are combo guards who can play on or off the ball and spread the floor. Dragic is better now but it took him until his 30s to get to this level.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:Dragic is like 6-8 and was underrated for a long time.
Fred VV is a very different kind of player.
Dragic is a very good penetrater which opens the game for him. Super great fundamentals on space to get that shot off.
Butler kind surprised me he left PHilly and Miami had to pay up to grab him. It was a risk because Jimmy has not exactly been a great dude basically wanting out from Bulls, Minny and Philly. But it works here for us to say “Hey, this is the way to go”.
Didn’t we do this last year fawning over Toronto and Philly?
Before Durant got hurt did we not think he was ours?
Thee games with Haywood are really close. Smart back had to be an issue last night based on his body language.
Herro was amazing last night and carried that team. Otherwise the series is tied. Herro is the x-factor. That Jimmy Butler is mature to the point of letting this kid carry them says a lot.
All wrapped up by Spo who has improved as a coach over the years. Both those teams are coached well and deserve to be fighting it out. Parity in the NBA rules the day. Its fun. Next year the Nets and Warriors throw there hat in the ring.

Are we talking about the same Dragic? Dragic is a 6'3 combo guard (probably more of a PG) not unlike VanVleet. Dragic is a little more complete offensively but obviously FVV has the edge defensively. But they are similar players in the fact that they are combo guards who can play on or off the ball and spread the floor. Dragic is better now but it took him until his 30s to get to this level.

Dragic- My counter to Starphucking for Paul.
FA, still playing at high level and mentor potential.

I like Dragic but his big money days are behind and perhaps his role now suites him that can prolong his career in sunny Florida. Seems like a good guy but not all vets are good mentors or willing. Not saying he is a negative one at all.
In Miami he could be give time to manage injuries better with less responsibility. He made his big money and Sits at age 34. I can’t speak for him but just don’t see it here.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:You notice how Miami moved on from the BIG 3 and may have miss the playoffs once since, with no high draft picks.

IMO, if your not in the top 5 spots, you have to draft by fit, not most talented, Miami drafts by fit, so they dont spend years developing a player to play in their system, they draft players that fit the system/culture.

I thought fizdale would bring that mind set to the knicks, instead he advised the FO to draft Knox, a guy who avg .06 assist

Knicks didn’t have a system established for players to fit into yet like Miami does. In theory the Knox pick makes sense because at 9 a big forward who is athletic and can shoot should fit anything you’re trying to do. Knox just hasn’t translated into that player yet. Who knows if he ever will but the upside is still there.

Every player has the potential to be as good as the best, but not every player has the mamba mentality...NY isn't for any of the players on this roster except for RJ

I want you to think about all the players that have had success in NY and ask yourself does anybody on this roster have that same Mentality, energy, personality, the bull dog winner mentality

Mason, Oak, Melo, Amare, Felton, ward, sprewell, tyson, camby, LJ, harper, Doc, starks, (novak with the championship belt)even prigs to name a few.. It takes a certain type of player to make it in NY.

Knox, frank, dsj, mitch, randle, dotson, those dudes don't have it..they don't play with the same passion

Mix and match 30 years of a bygone era. Amare, spree, oak, LJ, Harper and Doc were all awesome before they got ere. So your talking about guys that had reputations. All those guys added up to Zero rings. You left off Ewing, but we get it. You left off H20.
Mamba? Really? Sociopathic winning focus? Maybe Ewing. Bernard King? Xavier? Spree? Camby? LOL! Flu Tyson? Novak? Spree was also a malcontent. Kobe the Mamba could be a dick at times, but he showed up on time!
Felton was an established Vet before he got here and he was OK. Starks and Mase were basically bone heads who Riles did great with. Mase was out of control off the court and how we got GSW to take Starks was amazing. I gather the market for spree was toxic at the moment. Novak did nothing here other than have fun. It was. But its not the Moxie your trying do demonstrate. Camby had his worst years in NY. He was soft here. Flu Tyson? Ward was the only. Player we drafted on your list. He was an average player. Prigs was a novelty. I liked him. He is coaching in the NBA for the Timberwolves. Smart GM they have there now!

djsunyc wrote:the bubble is it's own alternate reality. i'm not sure how much you can truly evaluate what's going on there.

the chip counts - there should be no asterisks but i don't know how you can compare this to every other nba season.

No travel. Same court every night. Shortened season. No fans behind the backboard. No personnel/media under the hoop. No fans on the sidelines. Slippage on the court is apparently a problem. The refs are negating by half. Usually they have to pander calls to a home crowd/arena, but not the case here. They still have to job certain players or teams to extend series or keep games close, but the removal of fans is pretty interesting.

Herro might have more energy beyond the typical rookie wall because of all the logistical changes for the bubble.

I can see how no fans would start to impact guys like Harden/LBJ ( narcissists) who needs constant attention and validation.

The other thing is whenever the league has some kind of glitch around the game, usually a darkhorse team wins to keep small market teams protected ( Detroit and Dallas winning rings) maybe Heat or Pacers pull it off.

Knixkik wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Just want to revisit this for a bit. I think it's amazing that Miami and Boston both share the same team build essentially

C Defensive Big (Bam, Theis)
PF Big Wing (Crowder, Tatum)
SF Do it Wing (Butler, Brown)
SG Wing or combo guard (Robinson, Smart)
PG Scoring PG (Dragic, Walker)
6th Do it all shooter/wing (Herro, Hayward)

So with the exception of some shooters/playmakers the teams are made up of largely multi-position defenders. They both employ the idea of really only having 3 positions on the floor; PG, 3 wings, and a defensive big. Their top 6 players are essentially a Big, a PG, and 4 wings of varying skill-sets.

So who fits from our team:

Barrett: Fits as a do-it-all, playmaking wing similar to Butler and Brown
Robinson: He's a anchor defensive big so his game makes sense if the PF next to him is a big wing (not a true big man)
Knox: He can still fit. He can shoot and plays multiple positions. He's a big wing via Tatum and Crowder but obviously has a lot of work to do on both end.
Ntilikina: defensive combo guard ala Smart. He fits fine with his ability to guard multiple positions. But he needs to learn how to shoot at 36% + from 3pt.
Harkless: He sort of fits that Crowder role, but can he shoot it well enough?
Other good fits are Bullock and Dotson: 3&D multi-position defensive players

Players who don't fit:

Randle: I don't see a path for him unless it's in a backup center role where he can fill it up for 20 mpg. As we see over the years, similar players like Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, etc eventually settle into that backup center role.
Dennis Smith: Upside is there and no harm keeping him as a backup, but there is no real path for him as a starting PG on a championship team with his inability to play off the ball. If you look at Walker and Dragic, both of them can play well on or off the ball. A PG must be able to play off the ball as great teams generate much of their playmaking from the wings.

What we need:

PG who can play on and off the ball: VanVleet, Chris Paul, and Mike Conley being the most obvious targets

Wings who can shoot: Plus if they can defend that's a bonus: Vassell is a top pick for me. Obviously Joe Harris is a FA option. A trade option is Luke Kennard.

Oversized wing for Stretch 4- If Knox really develops he fits. Bertans, Grant, and Gallinari are all FA options who fit. Crowder is a free agent but his stock is sky high. Someone like Robert Woodard shows a lot of Grant/Crowder traits as a late 1st round prospect.

So adding VanVleet or Paul and drafting Vassell is a start. As for stretch-4 the question is do we want to commit to a muli-year player like Gallinari, Bertans, or Grant, or wait it out and use Knox/Harkless or another stopgap

C Robinson
Big Wing Harkless/Knox
Wing Barrett
Wing Vassell
PG VanVleet or Paul
6th Frank

This is what we might be looking at early in the process. We won't be able to address all the needs at once.

Good analysis. Both teams have interchangeable players that play multiple positions. They also have multiple players that can make plays for themselves and others.

We have a couple of good pieces to work with. Robinson is the rim protector and rim runner. Barrett is a slasher that can play 2-3. The problem is, our interchangeable pieces can't shoot at this point in their careers. The other major element that we are lacking is that one elite wing player Tatum and Butler; players that are very difficult to get.

2-way players that can play multiple positions, can shoot and put the ball on the deck should be our main priority. players in the draft that we should be targeting at 8 are:
Vassell: Doesn't create his own shot but that will come with development and

Okoro: can guard multiple positions, can get to the basket and finish but is an inconsistent shooter. This can be developed...

If we trade down, Maxey should be our target.

Not a big fan of Vanvleet on this team. By default, he will become our #1 option and there is no way he will live up to that contract. I think he excels in the system he is playing in, surrounded by some really good players. Also, I'm not a big fan of little guards especially in a league that is switch-centric on PNRs.

Hopefully, we build this thing the right way and don't throw draft picks and prospects at a fading star....

Our 2 main players (Barrett and Robinson) can't shoot, but neither can Miami's 2 best players Butler and Bam. The difference is they are surrounded by elite shooting and playmaking. Our team can generally be modeled after Miami because our top players align with theirs in terms of position and some skills, but obviously Butler and Bam are stars at this point in their careers and a lot will have to go right to get Barrett and Mitch anywhere near that level.

Which is exactly why you surround RJ and Mitch with shooters like Davis Bertans and a playmaking PG like Paul