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Only two guys I really want in top of draft
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knicks1248
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8/6/2020  11:08 AM
ESOMKnicks wrote:If your big man is unstoppable scorer down low and a willing passer, it does wonders for team spacing and 3-point shooting.

Shaq and Hakeem were dominant scoring centers that took their teams to championships because they were great passers out of the post. A lot of LeBron's effectiveness in recent years has been as a bully down low and an effective passer out of the post. Patrick Ewing was not a great passer, as great as he was as an individual player, hence no rings for him.

I am not saying it is Wiseman or bust, but if we do not place high in the lottery, and he slips to us at 6 or 7, he would be an asset worth taking and capitalizing on. He may not be the next Admiral, but as long as he is not the next Okafor or Olowokandi, I am willing to roll. Is Wiseman a good passer?

The game isn't played through the post anymore. You need to have 5 perimeter players on the floor at all times, and penetrating guards.

There's just a handful of Big man in the NBA that are good passers and play in the post, and even those bigs can step out an drain a open jumper.

You don't drat Wiseman when you already have a big(mitch) who can't shoot from anywhere beyond 2 feet from the basket.

ES
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BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  11:13 AM
The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force
RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  11:15 AM
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smackeddog
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8/6/2020  11:17 AM
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

I know you're high on Wiseman, but what's your opinion of Ball, you haven't mentioned him much?

TripleThreat
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8/6/2020  12:35 PM
BRIGGS wrote:.... His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. .... He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force


Basic resource management consideration

The Knicks could be in a position to draft James Wiseman. Projecting his likely draft slot, that would represent a 120 percent cap hold against the Rookie Scale Exception for slot. So that means Wiseman's AAV would be 7-10 million for an unproven player without the traditional benefit of the combine/interview process and for a guy with character questions. That cap hold turns into a tax on your free agency options.

OR

The Knicks could draft a wing ( highest positional value), where the AAV is more in line with actual/current market forces, then scour the Tier 4 and Tier 5 FA ranks for what they hope is a replacement level pivot

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/center/

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/power-forward/

The benefit would be getting a battle tested NBA veteran, offering some type of cost certainty, in line with actual market trends. Essentially you are reaping the benefit of some other team previously drafting a big man, suffering through his growing pains, eating the opportunity cost of that roster spot and minutes and allot your resources elsewhere. It's like buying a used car, letting some other guy eat the massive depreciation when he drove off the lot when he bought it brand new. In effect, from the resource management side, drafting a traditional pivot in the Tier 1 range very likely makes you a farm team by proxy for the rest of the NBA.

The other issue is traditional pivots are phased out late game and in the playoffs. These are critical opportunities for said traditional pivots to develop their games/skill sets to combat the small ball pivot. Which only creates a circular system that further devalues the traditional pivot. Then you factor in dumb ****s like LeBron James deciding to pay Danny Green 15 million a year, creating a spike in wing valuation outside of actual market baselines, that RESETS the market and further devalues the traditional pivot.

Drafting Wiseman shapes out to be a bad resource management decision. He could break out. But he would have to break out in a historic way to offset the direction the rest of the league is going towards. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. The market will reshift at some point, but only likely when you get some kind of George Mikan type pivot who impacts the game on all levels. This is no longer unicorn territory, but bi-corn territory. And Wiseman just isn't that kind of prospect.

Rebounding has become an increasingly devalued skill. ( It's not to say it's unimportant, but the trade offs you have to sacrifice to drive up what amounts to raw counting stats hurts you in so many other places in game management)

If you don't get the money right, the cap right, the resource management right, your team loses before it even steps on the court.

Your monster in the middle looks painfully like an anchor around this team's neck.

BigDaddyG
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8/6/2020  12:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/6/2020  12:49 PM
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Briggs, you forgot to mention that in the game against Oregon, the only legit competition he played, they did pretty much controlled him. Not saying he wouldn't have made improvements over the course of a season. We just don't know.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/memphis-is-soundly-defeated-by-oregon-as-james-wisemans-flawed-but-strong-night-shows-why-hes-going-nowhere/

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knixkik
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8/6/2020  12:48 PM
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Really the only thing about Wiseman is how big of an impact can this type of player have on today's game and why would we want to continue to load up on bigs when we are so light at guard in a guard's league. He would have to become a top tier big man in the league for that pick to pay off.

BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  2:28 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:.... His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. .... He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force


Basic resource management consideration

The Knicks could be in a position to draft James Wiseman. Projecting his likely draft slot, that would represent a 120 percent cap hold against the Rookie Scale Exception for slot. So that means Wiseman's AAV would be 7-10 million for an unproven player without the traditional benefit of the combine/interview process and for a guy with character questions. That cap hold turns into a tax on your free agency options.

OR

The Knicks could draft a wing ( highest positional value), where the AAV is more in line with actual/current market forces, then scour the Tier 4 and Tier 5 FA ranks for what they hope is a replacement level pivot

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/center/

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/ufa/power-forward/

The benefit would be getting a battle tested NBA veteran, offering some type of cost certainty, in line with actual market trends. Essentially you are reaping the benefit of some other team previously drafting a big man, suffering through his growing pains, eating the opportunity cost of that roster spot and minutes and allot your resources elsewhere. It's like buying a used car, letting some other guy eat the massive depreciation when he drove off the lot when he bought it brand new. In effect, from the resource management side, drafting a traditional pivot in the Tier 1 range very likely makes you a farm team by proxy for the rest of the NBA.

The other issue is traditional pivots are phased out late game and in the playoffs. These are critical opportunities for said traditional pivots to develop their games/skill sets to combat the small ball pivot. Which only creates a circular system that further devalues the traditional pivot. Then you factor in dumb ****s like LeBron James deciding to pay Danny Green 15 million a year, creating a spike in wing valuation outside of actual market baselines, that RESETS the market and further devalues the traditional pivot.

Drafting Wiseman shapes out to be a bad resource management decision. He could break out. But he would have to break out in a historic way to offset the direction the rest of the league is going towards. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. The market will reshift at some point, but only likely when you get some kind of George Mikan type pivot who impacts the game on all levels. This is no longer unicorn territory, but bi-corn territory. And Wiseman just isn't that kind of prospect.

Rebounding has become an increasingly devalued skill. ( It's not to say it's unimportant, but the trade offs you have to sacrifice to drive up what amounts to raw counting stats hurts you in so many other places in game management)

If you don't get the money right, the cap right, the resource management right, your team loses before it even steps on the court.

Your monster in the middle looks painfully like an anchor around this team's neck.

No one drafts based on salary? You draft based on talent. The draft is one of the most important process in the game. Yes strategically lower picks are moved or sold but at the top of the draft you want to get the best talent you can. Any player that pans out is a salary deal( the best in the nba). I think he’s an nba impact player. I think Nesmith can be an impact player. Maybe LaMelo Ball. There’s a bunch of guys who can be good.

RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  2:31 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Really the only thing about Wiseman is how big of an impact can this type of player have on today's game and why would we want to continue to load up on bigs when we are so light at guard in a guard's league. He would have to become a top tier big man in the league for that pick to pay off.

Going for the best player is always best. I could say we have a solid up coming big player but if I think Wisemand better than anyone slotted in our spot I’d take him every day. You can easily play 2 big and you’d have a good big on the floor between the 2 48 mi utes ever game

RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  2:40 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Briggs, you forgot to mention that in the game against Oregon, the only legit competition he played, they did pretty much controlled him. Not saying he wouldn't have made improvements over the course of a season. We just don't know.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/memphis-is-soundly-defeated-by-oregon-as-james-wisemans-flawed-but-strong-night-shows-why-hes-going-nowhere/

Guy had 14 and 12 in half a Shane against Oregon. Tgis player would’ve been must see TV all year and easily the number 1 pick if he played through. We would’ve seen 2-3 30-20 games. Just project— if u can do 14-12 in 20 minutes against Oregon in game 3. What are u doing to the conference USA teams all year?

RIP Crushalot😞
martin
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8/6/2020  2:56 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Really the only thing about Wiseman is how big of an impact can this type of player have on today's game and why would we want to continue to load up on bigs when we are so light at guard in a guard's league. He would have to become a top tier big man in the league for that pick to pay off.

Going for the best player is always best. I could say we have a solid up coming big player but if I think Wisemand better than anyone slotted in our spot I’d take him every day. You can easily play 2 big and you’d have a good big on the floor between the 2 48 mi utes ever game

How? How can you play 2 big in this day and era when both or even one haven't shown to be able to shoot from distance or pass well? Teams would pack the paint, double, and be able to guard your shooters very easily.

You would have to have 3 very special wings who could shoot, beat man off dribble and drive at a high level.

On defense, they would get PnR'ed to death; Mitch can stay with some guards on the perimeter but no way Wiseman can.

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smackeddog
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8/6/2020  3:38 PM
If you’re drafting Wiseman you have to trade Mitch
HofstraBBall
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8/6/2020  5:14 PM
Are you saying you would take Nesmith with the 6 or 7 pick? Why?

Would take Toppin at 6 or 7 over any guard/SF in the draft.
Like Bey a lot. One of a few I hope the Knicks draft. Specially if he falls to 27, but doubt that. Reason why I think if Toppin, Wiseman, Ball or Edwards are gone at 6, we should trade do for a couple of teensto mid 20's picks.

In terms of SF prefer Vassell and Avdija over Nesmith.
Would not take Pritchard at the 27. Think he would be available later. Like Jalen Smith around that level. Like his size, motor and 3pt shooting for a big man.

BRIGGS wrote:Either Wiseman or Nesmith

27 Either Payton Pritchard Saddiq Bey or Paul Reed

And we are gonna get a good nba player at 37 as well— need to see who falls.

I’m going to bypass the Pgs up top even though I like Halliburton to either get my David Robinson like player or my Klay Thompson/ Nike Redd

I love Pritchard at 27 and drafting him there will give Frank the chance to start— though Pritchard is my guy for the future

There’s too many good names at 37 not to get some quality — draft is deep through 45 imho

New Pritchard draft video out— it’s fantastic and really showcases his skills— even compares him to FVV

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BRIGGS
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8/6/2020  5:39 PM
smackeddog wrote:If you’re drafting Wiseman you have to trade Mitch

Why? There is 48 minutes in a game? You can’t keep two 7 footers? M Robinson so far plays about 20 min? So there is a lot of minutes. Also u can use M Robinson as a Dennis Rodman like defender who can guard 3-4-5. I don’t agree that u can have only 1 7 footer

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joec32033
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8/6/2020  7:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/6/2020  7:36 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:If you’re drafting Wiseman you have to trade Mitch

Why? There is 48 minutes in a game? You can’t keep two 7 footers? M Robinson so far plays about 20 min? So there is a lot of minutes. Also u can use M Robinson as a Dennis Rodman like defender who can guard 3-4-5. I don’t agree that u can have only 1 7 footer

In his rookie year, with Wiseman and Mitch it would be like playing 3 on 5 on offense. One of the 2 would need to develop a 3 point shot/perimeter game(at least a corner 3) to make it work long term.

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BigDaddyG
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8/6/2020  10:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/6/2020  10:35 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The only thing people really know about Wiseman was he showed absolute dominance as a freshmen in his limited game time. The guy avg 20-11-3 in 20 min in 3 games one against Oregon with another nba of on his team. His rebounding % n that limited 66 minutes was the best in college basketball. Again as a baby. He was 235 when he played at Memphis 255 now while playing with pro trainers 6 months later. He’s quickly expanded perimeter skills make him even more alluring. Small ball match up. Fock that. I’ll put my monster in the middle and see what happens. The guy is gonna an an nba force

Briggs, you forgot to mention that in the game against Oregon, the only legit competition he played, they did pretty much controlled him. Not saying he wouldn't have made improvements over the course of a season. We just don't know.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/memphis-is-soundly-defeated-by-oregon-as-james-wisemans-flawed-but-strong-night-shows-why-hes-going-nowhere/

Guy had 14 and 12 in half a Shane against Oregon. Tgis player would’ve been must see TV all year and easily the number 1 pick if he played through. We would’ve seen 2-3 30-20 games. Just project— if u can do 14-12 in 20 minutes against Oregon in game 3. What are u doing to the conference USA teams all year?


Michael Sweetney put 15 and 10 per 36 minutes when he was with the Knicks. He never reached those numbers per game with us. Maybe Wiseman posts 28 and 24 in that game. But he didn't. His poor defensive instincts we exposed and Oregon forced him out the game with foul trouble. I like projecting too, but that doesn't mean I'll ignore the flaws in his game. He's not a four. He can't guard the perimeter. If you pair him with Mitch, than you're essentially pushing our best time protector out to the perimeter to guard PFs. Don't get me wrong. I like Wiseman. I just don't think he's the top 5 and I don't even get the same vibes I did when I saw Boogie Cousins in Kentucky. I'm sure as heck not gonna compare Wiseman to David Robinson.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
TripleThreat
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8/6/2020  11:11 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:If you’re drafting Wiseman you have to trade Mitch

Why? There is 48 minutes in a game? You can’t keep two 7 footers? M Robinson so far plays about 20 min? So there is a lot of minutes. Also u can use M Robinson as a Dennis Rodman like defender who can guard 3-4-5. I don’t agree that u can have only 1 7 footer


https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/dubin-2bigs-0724-1.png?w=575


"Two-big lineup usage peaked at 58.8 percent of minutes leaguewide during the 2011-12 season, but the shift to small ball sliced that number in half within four seasons. Last season, two-big lineups played just 6.4 percent of regular-season minutes. During LeBron, Wade and Bosh’s second season together, 19 of the league’s 30 teams used two-big lineups at least 50 percent of the time. Last season, no team even crossed the 40 percent mark in two-big lineup minutes."

joec32033
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8/6/2020  11:54 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
smackeddog wrote:If you’re drafting Wiseman you have to trade Mitch

Why? There is 48 minutes in a game? You can’t keep two 7 footers? M Robinson so far plays about 20 min? So there is a lot of minutes. Also u can use M Robinson as a Dennis Rodman like defender who can guard 3-4-5. I don’t agree that u can have only 1 7 footer


https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/dubin-2bigs-0724-1.png?w=575


"Two-big lineup usage peaked at 58.8 percent of minutes leaguewide during the 2011-12 season, but the shift to small ball sliced that number in half within four seasons. Last season, two-big lineups played just 6.4 percent of regular-season minutes. During LeBron, Wade and Bosh’s second season together, 19 of the league’s 30 teams used two-big lineups at least 50 percent of the time. Last season, no team even crossed the 40 percent mark in two-big lineup minutes."

Only thing I am gonna say is how the hell do you even find a stat like that? Regardless of my opinion, great job looking that up.

~You can't run from who you are.~
BRIGGS
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8/8/2020  11:26 AM
I think the bottom line is that I personally feel Wiseman will be an nba franchise player. You win in the nba w franchise players. Just because we have Robinson won’t change my thinking. I always think what will win big. A franchise big player sets the foundation for 10-13 years. He’s got every physical measurable. He’s a hard worker. He’s a smart kid. Every team needs 2-3 big players surrounded by perimeter players. But the big thing for me is Wiseman is a franchise type player and the other guys are very good to good nba players.
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Uptown
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8/8/2020  12:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/8/2020  12:17 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I think the bottom line is that I personally feel Wiseman will be an nba franchise player. You win in the nba w franchise players. Just because we have Robinson won’t change my thinking. I always think what will win big. A franchise big player sets the foundation for 10-13 years. He’s got every physical measurable. He’s a hard worker. He’s a smart kid. Every team needs 2-3 big players surrounded by perimeter players. But the big thing for me is Wiseman is a franchise type player and the other guys are very good to good nba players.

I've always had the mindset that you draft the best talent available regardless of need for the most part. Especially on a team like ours that just needs and influx of talent!! If the best talent available just so happens to fulfill a need, that's even better.

Despite having Robinson on the roster, if Wiseman is on the board when we pick and Ball and Edwards are off the board, then we should definitely take him. Wiseman, RJ and Robinson will be 3 valuable pieces to build with or any one of them can be valuable asset in a trade.

Only two guys I really want in top of draft

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