smackeddog wrote:Who does DSJr think would start him? How many teams would even give him significant bench minutes?

Maybe the goal with Smith should simply be get a player that wants to be here. You look at Elf's #s and you think what NBA play PG isnt thinking he can come in and do some things...

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Who does DSJr think would start him? How many teams would even give him significant bench minutes?

Suns. Hawks... we wont get much of anything for him. Cant showcase something that is broken
Seeing is believing. His value is he's someone else's Mudiay. How able Smith/Dotson for Malik Monk? I dont see us resigning Dotson and I think Bullock is better and will take his minutes anyway. This gives us a look at Monk. Something like that. I dont even like Malik Monk, its just a random example of liking someone else's crap more than your own.

Maybe the goal with Smith should simply be get a player that wants to be here. You look at Elf's #s and you think what NBA play PG isnt thinking he can come in and do some things...

I think we will likely get a 2nd round pick for Dennis Smith at this point. Not ideal, but you hope you can scout properly and draft another Mitchell Robinson, or at the very least, a quality role player prospect like a Dotson or Brazdeikis to put into the pipeline.

Bridges on the Suns is a good high character team guy. Never going to average a lot of points but could become a Bruce Bowen type. Smith & Dotson for Bridges would be a good deal for the Knicks.

Smith had upside but just not seeing good energy and body language from him ever when he’s on the court and his jumper doesn’t look like it can be fixed.

Need more culture players.

MS wrote:Should really target a 3D guy.

Bridges on the Suns is a good high character team guy. Never going to average a lot of points but could become a Bruce Bowen type. Smith & Dotson for Bridges would be a good deal for the Knicks.

Smith had upside but just not seeing good energy and body language from him ever when he’s on the court and his jumper doesn’t look like it can be fixed.

Need more culture players.

Why would we trade Dotson? ...for Bridges... What?

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

As much as I dislike his game, I'm hoping he develops into what he was projected to be because he seems like a good guy who has been through some tough times coming up. But keeping it strictly on what has happened on the court, I have no confidence in DSJ and honestly never have (I was in the don't draft him camp).

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

You are leaving out a lot of things beyond surface stats to help make your point. Saying DSJ is a terrible NBA player may be extreme, but would you at least concede that he hasn't provided much evidence that he can develop into a player teams can win with utilizing him in a leading role? Forget Frank, people are down on DSJ because he hasn't display much to make one believe he will ever be more than just another guy who's numbers and flashy highlights are more impressive than his actual game. Plus throw in his horrible intangible (i.e. lack of shooting, lack of hustle, lack of defense, only exerting maximum effort when he thinks it will lead to a spectacular play, carrying himself like he's already a star because Lebron co-signed on his ability, etc.).

As much as I dislike his game, I'm hoping he develops into what he was projected to be because he seems like a good guy who has been through some tough times coming up. But keeping it strictly on what has happened on the court, I have no confidence in DSJ and honestly never have (I was in the don't draft him camp).

Never said he is guaranteed to be player teams can use at a leading role. Made three points. One, he has not been a terrible NBA player. Specially for putting up the stats he did at 20 and 21 years old. Secondly, disagreeing that he or ANY young player is "SHOT" at 22 years old. Specially one that put up decent numbers his first year. Third, that defending the right for a guy like Frank to develop but not other young players on the team is hypocritical. Now what do I think he needs to improve in order to be an NBA level PG, the list is long. Never said he didn't or that he is not struggling this year. Just feel the treatment has been unfair. I would be defending any young player that is showing potential yet short sighted, unrealistic fans are looking to trade him. Including Mitch when people said he was foul prone and can't hit a shot other than a dunk. Or Knox when people said he was inconsistent, never drives, and cant play defense. Or RJ when talking about his shot and free throws.
With Smith its more about other reasons. There are the Phil fans who want Frank to succeed over Smith to prove Phil was not the nightmare of a Prez that he was. For KP fans, his attachment to KP being traded is always going to bring sharper criticism. For Frank fans, who overstate every steal Frank makes and downplay the efforts of every other PG on the team. No one will be as good.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

As for what Frank has shown vs. Smith happy to talk about that. Frank has also been a very bad NBA player. The differences are when both players show flashes of impact play what do you see? With Smith you see a guy who creates for himself first and can score. The thing with Frank is when you see his flashes they elevate the play of the entire team with his defense and passing. Both have stunk. I am a big Frank homer but the kid has been terrible mostly, with some flashes of good play.

There is no hypocrisy. Smith wants to be traded where he can get what he needs cool. Ba-bye

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:Smith has been a terrible NBA player. I hoped we would see something good here but he's god awful in every way. His rookie season was not good. His shooting was abysmal on terrible team. His A/TO ratio was terrible. He did nothing good with any consistency. Hoped I was wrong on him since we need some of these young guys to break out. DS had many chances and has looked so bad its almost weird

Wait. Realize he has had a terrible 2019 but this is a huge exaggeration from the patient and pro youth development fan base. All who have complained about the Knicks development of players. The kid has played a total of 21 games averaging 16 minutes per, was hurt then had mom die. Yes he has a hitch in his shot and it is a problem. His confidence, helped by loyal booing fans, is at a all time low. But for the ones, with usual fan insight, to say he is "terrible NBA player", lets talk facts. Kid averaged 15/5 his first year. If Frank had done that his first year fans would have had a year long hard on despite the TO ratio analytics fetched from the deep and of course the lack of defense. He then went on to 13/5 despite Mavs finding their Unicorn and Smith dealing with being put in back seat. If Frank had done that the same Knick fans would have had a hard on through Christmas. He then comes here and with all the haters, guess who, saying the kid was a selfish chucker, goes on to average 15/5 and made the haters realize he was more pass first PG than chuker. Again, if Frank did that that the insightful fans would be calling for a max extension. Where was the "God Awful" preached for Frank when he went 5.9/3 first year? 5.7/2.8 second year? Happy Frank has showed some progress in a few games this year and have always maintained we should not give up on him but we are throwing parades for him and the kid has the same numbers he did his first year? Lets cut the bull**** and call it what it is. Reason for bringing Frank into this is to show the hypocrisy with some fans. Smith averaged decent numbers, is extremely athletic, is on team friendly deal, 22 years old, has played limited minutes but fans have struck their gavels. Smh

Have always agreed that ALL young player drafted should be given a chance to succeed and given 3 to 5 years. Frank included. Specially on a team that is rebuilding. Have always preached patience with team full of new players and need for time to gel. This Smith pile on is just another bull**** one sided take fans have when trying to prove some other narratives.

He averaged 15/5 on a bad team with low %s. He accomplished what Knox did in his rookie year, take tons of shots, get floor time and accumulated stats.

As for what Frank has shown vs. Smith happy to talk about that. Frank has also been a very bad NBA player. The differences are when both players show flashes of impact play what do you see? With Smith you see a guy who creates for himself first and can score. The thing with Frank is when you see his flashes they elevate the play of the entire team with his defense and passing. Both have stunk. I am a big Frank homer but the kid has been terrible mostly, with some flashes of good play.

There is no hypocrisy. Smith wants to be traded where he can get what he needs cool. Ba-bye

C'mon Mike? You are an astute poster and would be calling guys out with such weak arguments or posting blog articles with false rumors. Rightfully so. Your saying that if any rookie(Specially Frank) on the Knicks ("A really bad team") would have posted 15 and 5 at 20 years old, you would be putting it down as you are? Calling him a terrible NBA player? You can keep saying he is a me first type of PG but truth is he has shown the opposite. Unless you want to push that narrative to fit your argument. As you just did saying he wanted to be traded. Despite him being asked and denying any such idea. But guess bloggers trolls know better.

BTW. You keep going back to making it about Smith vs Frank. Which I have repeated many times this is not what I am arguing. Think that is the the reason your judgement is being clouded. Have said many times that despite Franks weaknesses, its up to a team to develop and give their draft picks/young assets a chance to grow. Argued against any idea of trading him. As I am doing with Smith. As for your insinuation that Frank should be afforded more patience due to the way he elevates the team, in spite on lack of stats, that can be argued. Frank has had 18 out of 37 games where his +/- is on the minus side. 5 other games where he was +4 or less. So don't get how a biased eye test should favor one's player's right to patience. Reminds me of fans arguing for guys like Ron Bakers, Kadeem Allen's, Langston Gallowasy or Pablo Prigioni. They were also guys favored by the Knick fan eye test.