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I had attachment to KP but I love Knicks...
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meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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2/4/2019  11:13 AM
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
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martin
Posts: 76236
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2/4/2019  11:19 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

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meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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2/4/2019  1:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/4/2019  2:01 PM
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
martin
Posts: 76236
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2/4/2019  3:04 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

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TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
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2/4/2019  6:19 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
martin wrote:Your response is complete fluff and not based on any type of reality. I don’t need you to spin the Trade Checker but you have completely skirted any type of direct response.

What direct response do you want other than some exec suddenly coming up and say "Yeah I wanted to trade away our player ABC to get KP but Steve Mills refused. Oh btw if ABC you are reading it please don't be mad. KP is better than you."?

I mean, just the timing of it would prove that there should have been something. A week before deadline. and then again, he could have traded him in off-season, right?


I fail to see how you can make this so complicated.

If Zinger says I will only sign an extension with Dallas, then the Mavericks are the team with the most to trade and give the best RELATIVE VALUE the Knicks will get anywhere. It won't be a great deal ( it wasn't) but it was the best available. Why was it the best available? Because Zinger then becomes a rental to any other team, who will only pay a rental price.

Dallas can't bank on an offseason trade happening, so the assets they have right now, MIGHT NOT BE THERE IN THE OFFSEASON. The Knicks waiting risk getting even less.

At some point, a team "locks in" in terms of it's cap. For a team like OKC, when they traded for Kendrick Perkins and gave him an extension, that was locking into that roster, there was too much money tied up to guys they needed. Warriors locked in with Durant. Killed all their other flexibility.

Why would any non Dallas team trade anything of value for an injured guy with a **** heel brother for an agent who only wants to play in Dallas?

Of course non Dallas GM's are miffed, they DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO OFFER THE KNICKS A PILE OF DOGSHIT.

Denver traded Melo to the Knicks. The first offer by Donnie Walsh and he held it long, was Wilson Chandler and a first round pick. Melo would only resign in NY, so other teams would only pay a rental price, so Walsh ONLY HAD TO BEAT THE RENTAL PRICE.

Dennis Smith Jr might not be there to trade this offseason. Matthews and DJordan would not be expiring contracts for them. Not to use to shed THJr and Lee. Those first round picks might not be there. Dallas has to make the best trades it can given the time and place, they can't sit still HOPING Zinger will be traded to them. They have no guarantee of this. They need to trade for him to GET HIS BIRD RIGHTS. So they can go over the cap to resign him.

Teams are willing to beat the rental price FOR SAID PLAYERS BIRD RIGHTS. Which only matters to a team where the player will agree privately to sign a long term extension. "Mirror Test" this. If the Knicks wanted to trade for Zinger and knew he only would resign an extension in Dallas, what would you want the team to offer for him? Not much at all.

You turned checkers into chess, then into Candyland. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

The Knicks and Perry didn't hang up the phone on GMs calling. They knew any non Dallas offer would be LOW BALL SHIT. IF you think this deal is ****, fine, but any other deal WOULD BE SHITTIER.

What the **** are you talking about man? Jesus, get a drink. Pour some bourbon, man.

Your whole breakdown is based on KP saying he would only play in Dallas and Dallas being aware of it.
Is that based on fact or just your guess? And why did Dallas give up real assets to get KP if they already knew he wouldn't sign anywhere else? Why wouldn't they lowball us, since in your scenario we have zero leverage?

If Zinger would not sign a long term extension with Dallas, they wouldn't have made the trade in the first place.

"Zero leverage" is not accurate. The Knicks had Zinger's BIRD RIGHTS. Which are insanely valuable. The Warriors can only be constructed as they are because every player of importance was someone with Bird Rights vested already by GS. Except Durant but he's spent long enough there to reset his Bird Rights.

If you want to build a contender, eventually you will need to go deep into the tax zone. To do this, you need Bird Rights. Dallas faces the prospect of lowballing the Knicks, who trades him to a non Dallas team ( if the value of the rental price is more than the Mavs offer), then the Mavs need to make a 2nd trade to get said Bird Rights from some other team.

This is why most scenarios of the Knicks signing two max guys this offseason makes no sense. Players would be taking less in AAV and years in a situation where the Knicks can't go over the cap to give them big extensions. You can't build a team around them that way.

Dallas does not take in THJr bad contract and that last of Lee's deal to watch Zinger walk away.

A) The QO situation as stated mitigates some of the trade scenario ( as Martin discusses)

B) The QO gives the Mavs some cap flexibility in the immediate ( Zinger wants a winning team around him, right?)

C) The QO talk forestalls any tampering claims ( because LBJ/AD/Lakers situation has every team frothing at the mouth about tampering issues)

Dallas NEEDS Zinger's Bird Rights. That's it. It's that simple. The point of the league structure is to create the most incentives for the drafting team to try to keep it's players.

meloshouldgo
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2/4/2019  6:44 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
martin wrote:Your response is complete fluff and not based on any type of reality. I don’t need you to spin the Trade Checker but you have completely skirted any type of direct response.

What direct response do you want other than some exec suddenly coming up and say "Yeah I wanted to trade away our player ABC to get KP but Steve Mills refused. Oh btw if ABC you are reading it please don't be mad. KP is better than you."?

I mean, just the timing of it would prove that there should have been something. A week before deadline. and then again, he could have traded him in off-season, right?


I fail to see how you can make this so complicated.

If Zinger says I will only sign an extension with Dallas, then the Mavericks are the team with the most to trade and give the best RELATIVE VALUE the Knicks will get anywhere. It won't be a great deal ( it wasn't) but it was the best available. Why was it the best available? Because Zinger then becomes a rental to any other team, who will only pay a rental price.

Dallas can't bank on an offseason trade happening, so the assets they have right now, MIGHT NOT BE THERE IN THE OFFSEASON. The Knicks waiting risk getting even less.

At some point, a team "locks in" in terms of it's cap. For a team like OKC, when they traded for Kendrick Perkins and gave him an extension, that was locking into that roster, there was too much money tied up to guys they needed. Warriors locked in with Durant. Killed all their other flexibility.

Why would any non Dallas team trade anything of value for an injured guy with a **** heel brother for an agent who only wants to play in Dallas?

Of course non Dallas GM's are miffed, they DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO OFFER THE KNICKS A PILE OF DOGSHIT.

Denver traded Melo to the Knicks. The first offer by Donnie Walsh and he held it long, was Wilson Chandler and a first round pick. Melo would only resign in NY, so other teams would only pay a rental price, so Walsh ONLY HAD TO BEAT THE RENTAL PRICE.

Dennis Smith Jr might not be there to trade this offseason. Matthews and DJordan would not be expiring contracts for them. Not to use to shed THJr and Lee. Those first round picks might not be there. Dallas has to make the best trades it can given the time and place, they can't sit still HOPING Zinger will be traded to them. They have no guarantee of this. They need to trade for him to GET HIS BIRD RIGHTS. So they can go over the cap to resign him.

Teams are willing to beat the rental price FOR SAID PLAYERS BIRD RIGHTS. Which only matters to a team where the player will agree privately to sign a long term extension. "Mirror Test" this. If the Knicks wanted to trade for Zinger and knew he only would resign an extension in Dallas, what would you want the team to offer for him? Not much at all.

You turned checkers into chess, then into Candyland. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

The Knicks and Perry didn't hang up the phone on GMs calling. They knew any non Dallas offer would be LOW BALL SHIT. IF you think this deal is ****, fine, but any other deal WOULD BE SHITTIER.

What the **** are you talking about man? Jesus, get a drink. Pour some bourbon, man.

Your whole breakdown is based on KP saying he would only play in Dallas and Dallas being aware of it.
Is that based on fact or just your guess? And why did Dallas give up real assets to get KP if they already knew he wouldn't sign anywhere else? Why wouldn't they lowball us, since in your scenario we have zero leverage?

If Zinger would not sign a long term extension with Dallas, they wouldn't have made the trade in the first place.

"Zero leverage" is not accurate. The Knicks had Zinger's BIRD RIGHTS. Which are insanely valuable. The Warriors can only be constructed as they are because every player of importance was someone with Bird Rights vested already by GS. Except Durant but he's spent long enough there to reset his Bird Rights.

If you want to build a contender, eventually you will need to go deep into the tax zone. To do this, you need Bird Rights. Dallas faces the prospect of lowballing the Knicks, who trades him to a non Dallas team ( if the value of the rental price is more than the Mavs offer), then the Mavs need to make a 2nd trade to get said Bird Rights from some other team.

This is why most scenarios of the Knicks signing two max guys this offseason makes no sense. Players would be taking less in AAV and years in a situation where the Knicks can't go over the cap to give them big extensions. You can't build a team around them that way.

Dallas does not take in THJr bad contract and that last of Lee's deal to watch Zinger walk away.

A) The QO situation as stated mitigates some of the trade scenario ( as Martin discusses)

B) The QO gives the Mavs some cap flexibility in the immediate ( Zinger wants a winning team around him, right?)

C) The QO talk forestalls any tampering claims ( because LBJ/AD/Lakers situation has every team frothing at the mouth about tampering issues)

Dallas NEEDS Zinger's Bird Rights. That's it. It's that simple. The point of the league structure is to create the most incentives for the drafting team to try to keep it's players.

IDK - it's a good scenario. But if we are so sure Dallas wouldn't do the trade without long term commitment then nothing will quell the tampering discussions.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
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2/4/2019  11:29 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
martin wrote:Your response is complete fluff and not based on any type of reality. I don’t need you to spin the Trade Checker but you have completely skirted any type of direct response.

What direct response do you want other than some exec suddenly coming up and say "Yeah I wanted to trade away our player ABC to get KP but Steve Mills refused. Oh btw if ABC you are reading it please don't be mad. KP is better than you."?

I mean, just the timing of it would prove that there should have been something. A week before deadline. and then again, he could have traded him in off-season, right?


I fail to see how you can make this so complicated.

If Zinger says I will only sign an extension with Dallas, then the Mavericks are the team with the most to trade and give the best RELATIVE VALUE the Knicks will get anywhere. It won't be a great deal ( it wasn't) but it was the best available. Why was it the best available? Because Zinger then becomes a rental to any other team, who will only pay a rental price.

Dallas can't bank on an offseason trade happening, so the assets they have right now, MIGHT NOT BE THERE IN THE OFFSEASON. The Knicks waiting risk getting even less.

At some point, a team "locks in" in terms of it's cap. For a team like OKC, when they traded for Kendrick Perkins and gave him an extension, that was locking into that roster, there was too much money tied up to guys they needed. Warriors locked in with Durant. Killed all their other flexibility.

Why would any non Dallas team trade anything of value for an injured guy with a **** heel brother for an agent who only wants to play in Dallas?

Of course non Dallas GM's are miffed, they DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO OFFER THE KNICKS A PILE OF DOGSHIT.

Denver traded Melo to the Knicks. The first offer by Donnie Walsh and he held it long, was Wilson Chandler and a first round pick. Melo would only resign in NY, so other teams would only pay a rental price, so Walsh ONLY HAD TO BEAT THE RENTAL PRICE.

Dennis Smith Jr might not be there to trade this offseason. Matthews and DJordan would not be expiring contracts for them. Not to use to shed THJr and Lee. Those first round picks might not be there. Dallas has to make the best trades it can given the time and place, they can't sit still HOPING Zinger will be traded to them. They have no guarantee of this. They need to trade for him to GET HIS BIRD RIGHTS. So they can go over the cap to resign him.

Teams are willing to beat the rental price FOR SAID PLAYERS BIRD RIGHTS. Which only matters to a team where the player will agree privately to sign a long term extension. "Mirror Test" this. If the Knicks wanted to trade for Zinger and knew he only would resign an extension in Dallas, what would you want the team to offer for him? Not much at all.

You turned checkers into chess, then into Candyland. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

The Knicks and Perry didn't hang up the phone on GMs calling. They knew any non Dallas offer would be LOW BALL SHIT. IF you think this deal is ****, fine, but any other deal WOULD BE SHITTIER.

What the **** are you talking about man? Jesus, get a drink. Pour some bourbon, man.

Your whole breakdown is based on KP saying he would only play in Dallas and Dallas being aware of it.
Is that based on fact or just your guess? And why did Dallas give up real assets to get KP if they already knew he wouldn't sign anywhere else? Why wouldn't they lowball us, since in your scenario we have zero leverage?

If Zinger would not sign a long term extension with Dallas, they wouldn't have made the trade in the first place.

"Zero leverage" is not accurate. The Knicks had Zinger's BIRD RIGHTS. Which are insanely valuable. The Warriors can only be constructed as they are because every player of importance was someone with Bird Rights vested already by GS. Except Durant but he's spent long enough there to reset his Bird Rights.

If you want to build a contender, eventually you will need to go deep into the tax zone. To do this, you need Bird Rights. Dallas faces the prospect of lowballing the Knicks, who trades him to a non Dallas team ( if the value of the rental price is more than the Mavs offer), then the Mavs need to make a 2nd trade to get said Bird Rights from some other team.

This is why most scenarios of the Knicks signing two max guys this offseason makes no sense. Players would be taking less in AAV and years in a situation where the Knicks can't go over the cap to give them big extensions. You can't build a team around them that way.

Dallas does not take in THJr bad contract and that last of Lee's deal to watch Zinger walk away.

A) The QO situation as stated mitigates some of the trade scenario ( as Martin discusses)

B) The QO gives the Mavs some cap flexibility in the immediate ( Zinger wants a winning team around him, right?)

C) The QO talk forestalls any tampering claims ( because LBJ/AD/Lakers situation has every team frothing at the mouth about tampering issues)

Dallas NEEDS Zinger's Bird Rights. That's it. It's that simple. The point of the league structure is to create the most incentives for the drafting team to try to keep it's players.

IDK - it's a good scenario. But if we are so sure Dallas wouldn't do the trade without long term commitment then nothing will quell the tampering discussions.


How it works is Player X says I want a trade. His franchise tries to talk him out of it. Then they ask him, where you want to go? ( Because if it's going to a place where he will not resign a long term extension, it will be basically a ****ty level of actual trade return) He says Dallas. So the team talks to Dallas first, then works out some ground work on a possible trade. Then the team says OK, to Player X and his agent, you can now talk to Dallas for a specified amount of time. Only then can said player and Dallas "officially talk"

I think some here are under the belief that ZERO long term contract talks happen at all. That's not how it works. It does happen, but only is it legal when the drafting franchise GIVES PERMISSION and does so IN A SPECIFIED TIME WINDOW.

The problem is when the team gets into communication with the player and his agent AND INCITES the trade in the first place.

Every team tampers. But there is considered an OK way to tamper and a not OK way to tamper. Part of the "Not OK" version is using the press to drive down the trade price.

Again, I think some people here are under the notion that Dallas and Zinger/Janis cannot communicate at all period. That's not true. Cleveland doesn't trade for Kevin Love without talking to him at some point before the Wiggins trade on whether he'll sign an extension or not. Harden and the Rockets. Shaq to the Heat. And on and on and on.

Nalod
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USA
2/5/2019  7:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/5/2019  7:34 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
martin wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:The irony part is that KP would probably still be here if Phil Jackson was in charge. Both wanted to trade away KP (lets assume the rumor about phil trading him is true) but the difference is that Phil would not find a trade he would like for weeks or months, but Mills would just in 25 minutes. After weeks or months, the sitution would cool down then KP would apologize then everything would make up.

But not in this case. Mills is Mills and people still refuse to believe it. I think he could wield a chainsaw and chop people right and left in MSG but fans still would say "this guy is probably not right....but.....maybe he has a reason to do so?"


They said they were aware of the situation and had begun exploring trade for a while. It just seemed like 25 minutes because none of us knew how tenuous the situation was. KP is gone and it's a bit of a gut punch, but it is what it is. Can't look back now, only forward to the summer.

The buttom line is that trade deadline is still a week away and Mills now is going to tell me it is the best ever deal he could get? I don't believe him.

It is clear KP wanted to go and it is clear he selected Dallas.
What choice the FO had for a trade but the team KP penciled?
If there is some fault it is in how KP and Knicks relationship transpired over long time.
And there are many parties who acted to lead to the trade.
Inevitable events cannot be stopped.
You just acknowledge them and move on.

Again I am not going to **** on people, as everyone is sad. But, how could it be the best deal? Lakers? Boston? I can think of a lot of teams they really wanted KP and were willing to trade.

At the end, I really hope people would finally realize these two guys are always here (almost).

Mills, and Dolan.

It is not Donnie Walsh, not Isiah Thomas, not Glen Grunwald, not Phil Jackson.

It is always Mills and Dolan.

Name them, put out your details. Boston is absolutely not trading for KP until he returned from injury and proved healthy, see Gordon Hayward. They are also in a playoff hunt and need to resign Kyrie, they ain't busting up that team to save a space for KP next year.

Lakers? Almost in the same spot; LeBron and team are in a playoff hunt and wouldn't risk trading for KP (who they then would want to re-route to New Orleans? who also just shot down a KP trade?).

Knicks probably wanted to send KP to the West. And wanted to get rid of Lee/THJr at the least, so lots of expiring contracts and picks needed to make sure $40M in cap space.

Go for it, put out some scenarios.

Agreed Martin. There have been some that claim its a terrible return yet they dont offer a better or realistic return

We could have stood pat and traded him in the summer to Boston. They would get their start to replace Kyrie. Sorry I just don't get all the trade rules.

Timing. FInals and then the draft. Free agency opens up. Boston would want an opportunity for AD. Not sure they get it. And, you trying to makes cap space and woo a free agent. Timing is everything. I agree Boston would be a better trade partne but not for cap space. KP value was also higher going to a team he’d agree to sign with. HE might not have seen boston as such. We wanted him out west also.

Triple hits it with the timing. Those expiring are gone in the off season. Smith Might be gone. We get two draft picks. And...........if there is a notion that two free agents want to come then you replace your star. Would anyone have traded KP for Durant and Smith JR? Or Kawhi and Smith Jr? And ou get perhaps Kyrie? WE also have as good a chance for Zion.
FA’s ill know by July1st who we draft. Hope lives.

mlby1215
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2/7/2019  2:16 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/7/2019  6:54 AM
mlby1215 wrote:
martin wrote:mlby1215, I had challenged you on this before: draw up some likey scenarios where the Knicks could have gotten cap relief and picks/low contracts from other teams. Here is a good starting point:

https://knicksfilmschool.com/2019/02/03/did-the-knicks-do-their-due-diligence-on-the-kp-trade/

Well I will take time to read it. Reply later.

I finally have time to read it, and it actually is quite misleading.

First half of it involved about how the return of trade is not that bad. I didn't touch the part because it is subjective. How could we know DSJ is absolutely not next MJ except we have a time machine? When I said it can't be the best deal not because the content but because the timing, the size of the deal, and the (lack of) nubmer of potential buyers.

It used a lot of time to convince people the deal is good, but is it necessary related to this topic? For instance, would Mav give more if the deal is July? The value of what we got traded to Mav could only raise and we no longer would have to take what they gave us. (expiring contracts) If Cuban wanted KP sitting at home now of course he would not mind if Knicks would do the same then trade him to Mav at July. Why so hurry?

The second part again are pretty misleading(imo it is called dishonest) The author first insisted THJr and Lee has got to be traded in the SAME deal then one by one why no team would take the exact deal Mav would take. Hello?? is it very hard to understand? Of course they wouldn't becasue they are NOT mav. Different team need different things.

First, there is no reason we have to deal THJr and Lee now other than caps. People are funny. They have been screaming to sky all the years "Thanks god!! Phil is gone. Finally we build the team the right way!!" then after 10-43 (worse than 17-65)and KP got traded then people start talking how awesome KD and Kyrie together could be. Hello?? Where is the proper way to build a team? Where is the tanking idea? So suddenly Big-Three Round 2 again?

Sean Marks traded his caps for picks, and Steve Mills traded his franchise player for caps, and he got praised.

We don't have to trade THJr and Lee to make the deal of KP happen. They are seperate. There are a whole lot of teams would want KP but would not take caps. For example, how about 4 picks from Boston, or any other team? I do not say 4 picks are better but if you limit what your buyers could pay you of course you limit the number of your buyers.

Day by day it is clearer why the deal has been that way. Mills wanted KP gone, not to max the return. He had to do it secretly becaus he didn't want to give time to KP camp. Mills would not want to repeat what Phil has done wrong.

QO is not a very strong weapon for a ACL injured player who haven't been played a game for a year. There are a lot of teams would take the risk, and at worst they could do S/T to get something in return.

All in all, there is no reason Mills used KP to fix his mistake.

Oh, I forgot to mention why I didn't give your a potential deal to argue about. The author is exactly telling you why. No matter what deal has been put before him, he is still able to tear it apart. If the deal is good, he says another team would not do it. If the deal is bad, he say he like Mills' deal better. If the team has space but not picks, he says he like Mav's picks. If the team has picks but not space, he says that team is not able to take THJr and Lee. If the team has both, then he says that team still would not take KP because QO.

This is not intelligence. This is dishonesty.

meloshouldgo
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2/12/2019  7:05 PM
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
mlby1215
Posts: 20314
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2/13/2019  1:53 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

Well, take it easy. People tend to be combative easily these days.

The more I think about it, the more I understand why I am (and probably you too) a minority. Probably because I didn't grow up in NY as well. Imo fans are living in a bubble created by NY media, and anything against their view points is not well-received. For example, they worshipped Melo to the extent that Phil Jackson simply called out he should pass more then he got burned. They thought it was an insult.

It turns out he has no place to go elsewhere. No good team wants him as a starter, and he is unwilling to be a bench player. It is not to shot at him, but to show a problem. Melo lived in the bubble too long, and he probably thought he was much better than he truly was.

Everything else is just politics. Fans cried to sky that Triangle didn't work, and at 10-46 and no one said whatever Fiz is using doesn't work. It is the beauty of modern brand of bball. When you lose, you can lose quietly and no one would complain.

Of course there are a lot of people would counter Phil is the worst human being in this world. Who am I to argue with this? Steve Mills is doing his magic day by day, and soon he will not be able to sign KD and Kyrie then he has to throw all money to someone else as his seat gets very hot. Then of course it will not work then Fiz get fired then it turns out Perry didn't do his homework so he will get fired too. But don't worry, Mills will come in and hire the best GM he can buy.

It is just cycle. The new era is on and on until every fan get old then the new fans will take their place.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 27988
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Member: #6192

2/13/2019  10:22 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

The most honest post you have ever written. Fact is everyone on here gets combative. Self included. Not worth going back and seeing who escalated first but feel that if you treat people with respect and keep it to basketball you mostly gets same in return. Feel if you take it to the gutter most on here can go there with you. Think if you owned up to what you said above and toned it down on the hate, you may have had a different experience. Fact is, you would come out pretty hard against opposing views. As I have many times. With that said, NO ONE on here does more than just guess on what should or can be done regarding Knicks. Me included. Fact is we can all have our opinions and you know what they say about that. So take this stuff with a grain of salt. Its a place to talk somewhat sensical ****. Don't think Martin is against that. Do think he points out to many that they should back what they claim to be true. And agree, many on here do the same thing. But what do I know...

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27988
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2/13/2019  11:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/13/2019  11:40 AM
mlby1215 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

Well, take it easy. People tend to be combative easily these days.

The more I think about it, the more I understand why I am (and probably you too) a minority. Probably because I didn't grow up in NY as well. Imo fans are living in a bubble created by NY media, and anything against their view points is not well-received. For example, they worshipped Melo to the extent that Phil Jackson simply called out he should pass more then he got burned. They thought it was an insult.

It turns out he has no place to go elsewhere. No good team wants him as a starter, and he is unwilling to be a bench player. It is not to shot at him, but to show a problem. Melo lived in the bubble too long, and he probably thought he was much better than he truly was.

Everything else is just politics. Fans cried to sky that Triangle didn't work, and at 10-46 and no one said whatever Fiz is using doesn't work. It is the beauty of modern brand of bball. When you lose, you can lose quietly and no one would complain.

Of course there are a lot of people would counter Phil is the worst human being in this world. Who am I to argue with this? Steve Mills is doing his magic day by day, and soon he will not be able to sign KD and Kyrie then he has to throw all money to someone else as his seat gets very hot. Then of course it will not work then Fiz get fired then it turns out Perry didn't do his homework so he will get fired too. But don't worry, Mills will come in and hire the best GM he can buy.

It is just cycle. The new era is on and on until every fan get old then the new fans will take their place.

What are Knick fans living in a bubble about? Most know the long history of losing and bad management. We all know we have an owner who only cares about appearances and stock prices. Think most are focused on the hope that this finally looks like a true rebuild. How it ends? No one knows.

Don't think you can find ONE fan on here that thought Melo was not past his prime when he left. Nor many that thought he was worth maxing out with a NTC. The whole Melo argument was about ONE thing, for me. We finally had an "All Star" player that wanted to come to NY and as usual, we screwed it all up.

BTW. Think comparing the success of the Triangle, which was being pushed by a FO guy not a coach, and had players maxing out the cap space on the roster to the success of Fiz as he navigates through failed players, 10 day contracts, 19 and 20 year old starters is unfair and completely misses the reasoning behind opposing the Triangle, Phil or judging Fiz. Fact is the FO has begun a true rebuild. Anyone that expected the team to have had any other result than what is going on now, was not paying attention. No one hated Phil. It was my opinion that hiring a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience who pushed an antiquated system of basketball was the WORST choice for the Knicks. As we are seeing now a A TRUE rebuild starts with scrapping everything, adding young assets, mounting up picks and hiring a promising young coach to do so. NOT by hiring an aging former coach whos main goal was to keep the Triangle alive. IMO

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
martin
Posts: 76236
Alba Posts: 108
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Member: #2
USA
2/13/2019  11:41 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

The most honest post you have ever written. Fact is everyone on here gets combative. Self included. Not worth going back and seeing who escalated first but feel that if you treat people with respect and keep it to basketball you mostly gets same in return. Feel if you take it to the gutter most on here can go there with you. Think if you owned up to what you said above and toned it down on the hate, you may have had a different experience. Fact is, you would come out pretty hard against opposing views. As I have many times. With that said, NO ONE on here does more than just guess on what should or can be done regarding Knicks. Me included. Fact is we can all have our opinions and you know what they say about that. So take this stuff with a grain of salt. Its a place to talk somewhat sensical ****. Don't think Martin is against that. Do think he points out to many that they should back what they claim to be true. And agree, many on here do the same thing. But what do I know...

fair response.

feel like we shouldn't hold the line low when posting about anything. Knicks, basketball, sports, not sports, anything. You don't know something, take a minute to inform. If you can't find, ask. If laziness is your go-to, it will show up in other aspects. Jumping into a discussion and blathering on without listening, without informing, without some curiosity, without some willingness to do even a modicum of investigation is absolutely a bad look

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arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
2/13/2019  12:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/13/2019  12:10 PM
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

The most honest post you have ever written. Fact is everyone on here gets combative. Self included. Not worth going back and seeing who escalated first but feel that if you treat people with respect and keep it to basketball you mostly gets same in return. Feel if you take it to the gutter most on here can go there with you. Think if you owned up to what you said above and toned it down on the hate, you may have had a different experience. Fact is, you would come out pretty hard against opposing views. As I have many times. With that said, NO ONE on here does more than just guess on what should or can be done regarding Knicks. Me included. Fact is we can all have our opinions and you know what they say about that. So take this stuff with a grain of salt. Its a place to talk somewhat sensical ****. Don't think Martin is against that. Do think he points out to many that they should back what they claim to be true. And agree, many on here do the same thing. But what do I know...

fair response.

feel like we shouldn't hold the line low when posting about anything. Knicks, basketball, sports, not sports, anything. You don't know something, take a minute to inform. If you can't find, ask. If laziness is your go-to, it will show up in other aspects. Jumping into a discussion and blathering on without listening, without informing, without some curiosity, without some willingness to do even a modicum of investigation is absolutely a bad look

Some posters just like to push other posters buttons.
The discussion itself is just a background to induce and observe the reaction.
Everyone has a tendency to prove yourself right to yourself by making others people react recklessly and stupidly.
In fact the shortcoming of others have nothing to do with our own imperfections.
Doing research as Martin rightfully suggested punting the end of this self-illusion as the conversation became about reality not the impressions in once head.
I would not be so harsh on posters who do this. This is unconscious self-therapy to relax the mental hardship which happened in every person life. I would let people vent. But it just me as I am not sensitive to whatever said to me. But other people are.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

2/13/2019  12:15 PM
mlby1215 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

Well, take it easy. People tend to be combative easily these days.

The more I think about it, the more I understand why I am (and probably you too) a minority. Probably because I didn't grow up in NY as well. Imo fans are living in a bubble created by NY media, and anything against their view points is not well-received. For example, they worshipped Melo to the extent that Phil Jackson simply called out he should pass more then he got burned. They thought it was an insult.

It turns out he has no place to go elsewhere. No good team wants him as a starter, and he is unwilling to be a bench player. It is not to shot at him, but to show a problem. Melo lived in the bubble too long, and he probably thought he was much better than he truly was.

Everything else is just politics. Fans cried to sky that Triangle didn't work, and at 10-46 and no one said whatever Fiz is using doesn't work. It is the beauty of modern brand of bball. When you lose, you can lose quietly and no one would complain.

Of course there are a lot of people would counter Phil is the worst human being in this world. Who am I to argue with this? Steve Mills is doing his magic day by day, and soon he will not be able to sign KD and Kyrie then he has to throw all money to someone else as his seat gets very hot. Then of course it will not work then Fiz get fired then it turns out Perry didn't do his homework so he will get fired too. But don't worry, Mills will come in and hire the best GM he can buy.

It is just cycle. The new era is on and on until every fan get old then the new fans will take their place.

I agree with you. And I am not bitter about being asked to not post here, nor do I think Martin is intentionally being mean. Everybody has cultural blind spots including us. Some are more obvious than others, and some people choose to work on theirs, others don't. Having migrated to a country where a large part of the population seems to consciously or subconsciously dislike people who don't look or talk the same has made me fairly thick skinned over time.

I have sciene degrees, I work as a supply chain consultant and I naturally gravitate to data. I am also an atheist and a contrarian and I'll take up unpopular positions and passionately debate them. This part is just me and has nothing to do with basketball or culture. I am perpetually an outside looking in.

So how people respond to me is usually a combination of the two things, and I am perfectly OK with it. I think this board has some really good posters who bring thoughtful and analytical stuff. There's also a vocal minority that seem to try and drown out all other POVs by sheer volume of their posts and by taunting/ridiculing everybody who disagrees with them. I think you are referring mostly to this minority in your post. Now I don't personally care what names I get called etc.. but I object to double standards and hypocrisy which is pervasive for this group.

I think the mods do a great job in general and it's too much to ask anyone to treat every person differently and fairly all the time. I have no regrets postng here or being told to stop. I was headed towards that eventuality one way or another.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
2/13/2019  12:29 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

Well, take it easy. People tend to be combative easily these days.

The more I think about it, the more I understand why I am (and probably you too) a minority. Probably because I didn't grow up in NY as well. Imo fans are living in a bubble created by NY media, and anything against their view points is not well-received. For example, they worshipped Melo to the extent that Phil Jackson simply called out he should pass more then he got burned. They thought it was an insult.

It turns out he has no place to go elsewhere. No good team wants him as a starter, and he is unwilling to be a bench player. It is not to shot at him, but to show a problem. Melo lived in the bubble too long, and he probably thought he was much better than he truly was.

Everything else is just politics. Fans cried to sky that Triangle didn't work, and at 10-46 and no one said whatever Fiz is using doesn't work. It is the beauty of modern brand of bball. When you lose, you can lose quietly and no one would complain.

Of course there are a lot of people would counter Phil is the worst human being in this world. Who am I to argue with this? Steve Mills is doing his magic day by day, and soon he will not be able to sign KD and Kyrie then he has to throw all money to someone else as his seat gets very hot. Then of course it will not work then Fiz get fired then it turns out Perry didn't do his homework so he will get fired too. But don't worry, Mills will come in and hire the best GM he can buy.

It is just cycle. The new era is on and on until every fan get old then the new fans will take their place.

I agree with you. And I am not bitter about being asked to not post here, nor do I think Martin is intentionally being mean. Everybody has cultural blind spots including us. Some are more obvious than others, and some people choose to work on theirs, others don't. Having migrated to a country where a large part of the population seems to consciously or subconsciously dislike people who don't look or talk the same has made me fairly thick skinned over time.

I have sciene degrees, I work as a supply chain consultant and I naturally gravitate to data. I am also an atheist and a contrarian and I'll take up unpopular positions and passionately debate them. This part is just me and has nothing to do with basketball or culture. I am perpetually an outside looking in.

So how people respond to me is usually a combination of the two things, and I am perfectly OK with it. I think this board has some really good posters who bring thoughtful and analytical stuff. There's also a vocal minority that seem to try and drown out all other POVs by sheer volume of their posts and by taunting/ridiculing everybody who disagrees with them. I think you are referring mostly to this minority in your post. Now I don't personally care what names I get called etc.. but I object to double standards and hypocrisy which is pervasive for this group.

I think the mods do a great job in general and it's too much to ask anyone to treat every person differently and fairly all the time. I have no regrets postng here or being told to stop. I was headed towards that eventuality one way or another.

I do not think Martin asked you not to post there. He is asking you to be less aggressive in doing so and more accommodating to other poster views and, well, absence of view. I myself was asked to do so and I thought about it and cooperated.I think it was good for me.
The diversity of cultures in US required everyone to be more tolerant, minorities and majorities included.
We mostly are in real life but Internet should not be an exception. There is no reason to hurt other people feelings even if they are totally wrong when hiding behind computer screen.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
mlby1215
Posts: 20314
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Joined: 4/16/2017
Member: #6486

2/13/2019  12:55 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:What are Knick fans living in a bubble about? Most know the long history of losing and bad management. We all know we have an owner who only cares about appearances and stock prices. Think most are focused on the hope that this finally looks like a true rebuild. How it ends? No one knows.

Don't think you can find ONE fan on here that thought Melo was not past his prime when he left. Nor many that thought he was worth maxing out with a NTC. The whole Melo argument was about ONE thing, for me. We finally had an "All Star" player that wanted to come to NY and as usual, we screwed it all up.

BTW. Think comparing the success of the Triangle, which was being pushed by a FO guy not a coach, and had players maxing out the cap space on the roster to the success of Fiz as he navigates through failed players, 10 day contracts, 19 and 20 year old starters is unfair and completely misses the reasoning behind opposing the Triangle, Phil or judging Fiz. Fact is the FO has begun a true rebuild. Anyone that expected the team to have had any other result than what is going on now, was not paying attention. No one hated Phil. It was my opinion that hiring a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience who pushed an antiquated system of basketball was the WORST choice for the Knicks. As we are seeing now a A TRUE rebuild starts with scrapping everything, adding young assets, mounting up picks and hiring a promising young coach to do so. NOT by hiring an aging former coach whos main goal was to keep the Triangle alive. IMO

Okay, first I am not here to insult people, but when I said "bubble", I didn't mean "yeah we are good" that kind of bubbles, but we are fed with the narratives NY media producing.

For example, "NY Knicks are bad because Dolan is bad". It is wrong. Dolan always does what fans want him to, eventually, almost. Fans want stars, he signed them. Fans want to tank, then he goes to tank. Fans wants famous coach/gm/prez, he find them. At the end, it all failed but it doesn't mean he didn't follow the "advices" fans were giving.

When it fails, it is all about Dolan. It is one of the narrative. It is the bubble NY media created for people to stay in.

Second, Triangle was holding Melo back. He could have been much better if there was no triangle. It is another narrative. "Melo will be much better if he is not ill-treated by Phil" is another bubble. It turns out he is super stubborn and will not change wherever he goes.

Third, this year Fiz is doing better because his team is weak and cap is not totally used. It is wrong. All the years Knicks are capped. Today we have Noah capped it and at the time Amare capped it, and Amare had much larger salary with much lower top limit. So what is the reason they can't be compared? Fiz is in first year but Fisher or Jeff were not? They had a very strong team? not full of 10 days or washed-out? At least this team had got a lot of lottery pick players.

This is another narrative.

I can list a lot. For example, Melo was loyal. I do not say he didn't, but he always signed with the one which gave him most money. How do you know he was loyal by choosing Knicks? We always gave him the best contract.

And for example, people wanted out because they are selish and/or greedy. Lin, Kanter, KP, to name a few. Are they all traitors?

And Knicks players didn't want to play in Triangle. Who? Lance Thomas? He wouldn't get a contract if he didn't play in triangle. Every player would love Triangle except who can create the chance on his own. Please, they are all employees. Why did they not like to shoot? shooting more = score more = money.

But where did this narrative come from? NY media fed you.

Why did Phil want to prove Triangle work? It is another narrative. If I were Phil, I would wish Triangle always fail. Because it would prove that I won 11 rings because I was a genius. I won them all on my own.

This guy, won 11 rings by using it. If you were him, why didn't you choose it again? It is just a rational choice.

I can tell you that people really hate Phil in a very personal way. Because they thought Melo = the only pride Knicks had, and Phil insulted him. (at least they thought also) They felt like Phil insulted Knicks. I don't blame ppl hating him because I understand the feeling.

I can list a whole lot. Currently the strongest narrative is that KP is a traitor but we have Perry so it is okay. The cap room we get will sign KD and Kyrie, and they will team with Zion. This managemennt has planed all things well.

Again I am not here to insult. I do not say fans living in bubble that Knicks is a strong team. They are living in a bubble that they as fans are not the problem. They are the problem, and media all these years knew too well to use the fans to get what they wanted.

Dolan always listen to fans, and it is why he failed.

arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
2/13/2019  2:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/13/2019  2:20 PM
mlby1215 wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:What are Knick fans living in a bubble about? Most know the long history of losing and bad management. We all know we have an owner who only cares about appearances and stock prices. Think most are focused on the hope that this finally looks like a true rebuild. How it ends? No one knows.

Don't think you can find ONE fan on here that thought Melo was not past his prime when he left. Nor many that thought he was worth maxing out with a NTC. The whole Melo argument was about ONE thing, for me. We finally had an "All Star" player that wanted to come to NY and as usual, we screwed it all up.

BTW. Think comparing the success of the Triangle, which was being pushed by a FO guy not a coach, and had players maxing out the cap space on the roster to the success of Fiz as he navigates through failed players, 10 day contracts, 19 and 20 year old starters is unfair and completely misses the reasoning behind opposing the Triangle, Phil or judging Fiz. Fact is the FO has begun a true rebuild. Anyone that expected the team to have had any other result than what is going on now, was not paying attention. No one hated Phil. It was my opinion that hiring a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience who pushed an antiquated system of basketball was the WORST choice for the Knicks. As we are seeing now a A TRUE rebuild starts with scrapping everything, adding young assets, mounting up picks and hiring a promising young coach to do so. NOT by hiring an aging former coach whos main goal was to keep the Triangle alive. IMO

Okay, first I am not here to insult people, but when I said "bubble", I didn't mean "yeah we are good" that kind of bubbles, but we are fed with the narratives NY media producing.

For example, "NY Knicks are bad because Dolan is bad". It is wrong. Dolan always does what fans want him to, eventually, almost. Fans want stars, he signed them. Fans want to tank, then he goes to tank. Fans wants famous coach/gm/prez, he find them. At the end, it all failed but it doesn't mean he didn't follow the "advices" fans were giving.

When it fails, it is all about Dolan. It is one of the narrative. It is the bubble NY media created for people to stay in.

Second, Triangle was holding Melo back. He could have been much better if there was no triangle. It is another narrative. "Melo will be much better if he is not ill-treated by Phil" is another bubble. It turns out he is super stubborn and will not change wherever he goes.

Third, this year Fiz is doing better because his team is weak and cap is not totally used. It is wrong. All the years Knicks are capped. Today we have Noah capped it and at the time Amare capped it, and Amare had much larger salary with much lower top limit. So what is the reason they can't be compared? Fiz is in first year but Fisher or Jeff were not? They had a very strong team? not full of 10 days or washed-out? At least this team had got a lot of lottery pick players.

This is another narrative.

I can list a lot. For example, Melo was loyal. I do not say he didn't, but he always signed with the one which gave him most money. How do you know he was loyal by choosing Knicks? We always gave him the best contract.

And for example, people wanted out because they are selish and/or greedy. Lin, Kanter, KP, to name a few. Are they all traitors?

And Knicks players didn't want to play in Triangle. Who? Lance Thomas? He wouldn't get a contract if he didn't play in triangle. Every player would love Triangle except who can create the chance on his own. Please, they are all employees. Why did they not like to shoot? shooting more = score more = money.

But where did this narrative come from? NY media fed you.

Why did Phil want to prove Triangle work? It is another narrative. If I were Phil, I would wish Triangle always fail. Because it would prove that I won 11 rings because I was a genius. I won them all on my own.

This guy, won 11 rings by using it. If you were him, why didn't you choose it again? It is just a rational choice.

I can tell you that people really hate Phil in a very personal way. Because they thought Melo = the only pride Knicks had, and Phil insulted him. (at least they thought also) They felt like Phil insulted Knicks. I don't blame ppl hating him because I understand the feeling.

I can list a whole lot. Currently the strongest narrative is that KP is a traitor but we have Perry so it is okay. The cap room we get will sign KD and Kyrie, and they will team with Zion. This managemennt has planed all things well.

Again I am not here to insult. I do not say fans living in bubble that Knicks is a strong team. They are living in a bubble that they as fans are not the problem. They are the problem, and media all these years knew too well to use the fans to get what they wanted.

Dolan always listen to fans, and it is why he failed.

Dolan is a businessman and his bbal business was and is very profitable and has absolutely astonishing investment return and value grows.
If anything he is the only winner after all.
Fans want positive emotions from team winning and greatness of the players they root for.
NY Knicks fans get non of this for 20 years. We are the biggest losers in all this.
So the question is are we a part of the problem which makes us losers?
Do we have any control? I will argue "we" collectively are.
Too many show no patience, no respect to the game, but just desire for instant gratification with baseless gambles and sturpanching.
If we want to help the team to slowly became a winner from the prolific clown show it has been for 20 years we need to temper our expectations and let bbal people do their job for whatever seasons it will be necessary.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Nalod
Posts: 71160
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
2/13/2019  3:08 PM
Kp was traded for Two no. 1's, one protected, one not.
DSjr, the 9th pick who has upside. And the ability in one fell swoop to do what few teams (except the Clippers) can do is sign two players.

Timing? Nobody will help the knicks clear space, without incentive.
Basis to grade trade? KP health going forward (kid hs not shown resiliency and demonstrates Fatigue. His anemic condition is not talked about but I would expect Dallas to have done its diligence on the matter. Most likely he make a lot of money and plays about 60-65 games a year. His talent has yet to flourish.
If we sign a megastar, it was a good deal for us. We wiff on two, it will suck. Unless we go hard in RFA and capture squeeze and upside player. That will take balls, media will fry Knicks/Mills.
Reality I will take a few years beyond instant gradification to sort this out!!

Anything im missing?

I had attachment to KP but I love Knicks...

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