Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

How the Knicks take away something he never had One of the biggest knocks on Frank was his passive play on offense. Frank got benched and now he is losing the confidence he barely had? He needs to put his big boy drawers on and man up! Burke got benched and now he is balling out! Everyone calls Mudiay garbage and yet he is outplaying Frank! If he wants it, he needs to take it!

Your right. Mudiay is our best PG. And Frank still cant hit an outside shot. Cant really get into these threads on who is better. I mean we are probably comparing guys that will probably be on a D league roster in a few years or coming off the bench for the Knicks or another bad team. No matter what some on here are hoping happens.

Think for now, we ride the rebuild wave. Think its another Dolan handjob for the fans. Gives him another 5 years to make money and put a **** roster on the court. Phil was the last 5 year pass. We hopefully get a high pick this year. See which one of the many Yoot future HOF's have potential to remain on a NBA roster, get our skinny Unicorn back and hope he does not break another leg and maybe finally try t win 40 games next year. Right now we have a lot of young prospects trying out. Doesn't matter hiw Fiz plays them. To say which one is better, should be closing gamea or which one will pan out seems like precicting if it will rain a month from now.

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

I think the FO is thinking that maybe Mudiay can develop into something. The only opportunity cost I see is if there is some other player out there with more potential upside- and I don't think there is one.

And honestly right now, if he develops, what kind of deal is he going to get? He's not getting anything more than a vet min type deal.

This season is, I think, about answering the question - who stays this summer.

I'm a big fan of Mudiay, but right now, he is looking like a fringe NBA player. I've seen flashes, but nothing like Burke.

He might well be back in China next year.

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Frank had 2 good offensive games when he scored 17 and 15 when he moved to the point...then he went into the tank missing wide open jumpers, hesitating, over thinking, not pushing the pace, not getting into the paint and putting pressure on the defense, etc. On top of that, while he regressed, Mudiay progressed. He should take the benching as a teachable moment. Best way to get a message through to a player is to take away minutes. If Frank continues with the passive offensive play then maybe he is who we all thought he was...

BTW,its not just NBA, it's the NFL too...54 to 51 in an NFL game?? Offense sells, which is why we see what we are seeing in the NBA and NFL

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

Your assessment is fair. I think they should have told him it's his team to run and let him start every game. I also think Fiz is missing out on how to build his confidence up and that may do long term damage or it may spur him to respond in a different way. I am definitely hoping for the latter. He still makes the team better and the are several posters here who choose to focus on ONLY the negative when it comes to Frank. They have been doing that since last year, oddly enough I don't see any of them focusing on the negatives of Spice. It's clear cut agenda driven posting. What confuses me is why they hate Frank, and I think it's something as petty as him being picked during the Phil era.

CrushAlot wrote:Another really good article by Macri. Interesting how many guys reporting on bball are also lawyers or have a law background.
https://knicksfilmschool.com/2018/11/20/the-curious-case-of-emmanuel-mudiay/

Thanks Crush. That was informative, credible and funny:

"If this comes down to a question of whether Emmanuel Mudiay should start games or not, one number jumps out more than any of the above stats or clips: 125.8.
That’s the Knicks’ defensive rating when Manny and Tim Hardaway Jr. share the court, which is slightly worse than if New York’s players were getting paid to throw the game."

I think it sums up that we've seen progress in some area, but some of the same ol' stuff in others

I think this guy ripped off my idea of a drinking game, which I think I posted in the OKC thread. (public service alert. drinking games are extra difficult if you're wearing a brown paper bag over your head )

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/ChinaJoeFlynn/status/1066403793988976640

Thanks for posting Crush!! You can see Mudiays confidence grow with each game...last night he was demanding the ball towards the end...Really rooting for him...

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

Your assessment is fair. I think they should have told him it's his team to run and let him start every game. I also think Fiz is missing out on how to build his confidence up and that may do long term damage or it may spur him to respond in a different way. I am definitely hoping for the latter. He still makes the team better and the are several posters here who choose to focus on ONLY the negative when it comes to Frank. They have been doing that since last year, oddly enough I don't see any of them focusing on the negatives of Spice. It's clear cut agenda driven posting. What confuses me is why they hate Frank, and I think it's something as petty as him being picked during the Phil era.

Just curious, why do you think anyone that roots for the Knicks hates Frank? Once a guy puts on the uniform don't you root for them?

Simple. People find negative stuff to post about him, but don't post anything negative about Burke, Mudiay or Knox. When all their games leave a lot to be desired, most of them have never done anything at an NBA level. But these posters always just post about Frank's lack of scoring, never once post about lack of defense by all their own favorite players. It's a fairly transparent double standard. Especially since they claim to support Frank, which makes them hypocrites in my opinion.

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Another really good article by Macri. Interesting how many guys reporting on bball are also lawyers or have a law background.
https://knicksfilmschool.com/2018/11/20/the-curious-case-of-emmanuel-mudiay/

I have been saying this for over a year now. Mudiay dies absolutely NOTHING at even the NBA average level. This guy literally said the exact same thing, verbatim.

What does this all mean?

Ultimately, for as wonderful as Mudiay’s offensive resurgence has been, baring continued leaps and bounds, even this version of Mudiay figures to top out as a high-end backup. If the team didn’t have such an incentive to develop Frank to his fullest potential, maybe there’s a discussion between the value of Manny’s passing, driving and pace-pushing vs the drawbacks of his defense and Manny-isms.

That’s not the case though. Emmanuel has not shown anything resembling an elite skill in any particular area, whereas Frank already flashes All-Defense potential on a nightly basis. If there’s only one plant in this garden that gets the water, it should be Frank’s.

Scott Perry took over the GM job about 17 months ago, and quickly realized the roster he was in charge of building was short on talent and athleticism. He didn’t have many options to build this thing by traditional means, as he was short on cap space and extra draft picks. But boy, did he make due. Three Knicks who literally anyone in the NBA could have had – Emmanuel Mudiay, Noah Vonleh and Allonzo Trier – were plucked off the scrap heap and combined to score 66 points tonight. Awesome job so far in his first chance as a head man.
Emmanuel Mudiay, several years after the fact, had himself the kind of game the Nuggets envisioned when they drafted him seventh overall in 2015. He’s finally figured out how to use his huge frame and elite athleticism to his advantage, getting six buckets at the rim to go with six from the free throw line on his way to 27 points, including several huge baskets late. If the 3-point shot he’s showing is real, he’s about a 20% improvement on defense away from becoming a dangerous, dangerous NBA player. After the game, Fiz did not rule out him starting at PG for the rest of the year.
Mudiay’s late game heroics overshadowed what might be the most efficient game an undrafted rookie has ever had, finishing with 25 points on 12 shots, and added 8 rebounds and 4 assists to boot. He’s already shown himself to be a guy who won’t always have it, but when he does, he can single handedly alter a game. His passing and court vision continues to improve.