fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Kanter's defense isnt so bad that it negates his offense.

Yeah it is

GustavBaohler wrote:I guess you missed watching the many games this season, where the only player keeping us in the game was Kanter.

I can’t think of one game where Kanter carried the team. Maybe a Miami game. That’s it.

Oh the Xmas game where they lost

Which others?

I gotta go with martin on this, I have been saying all season he was DAVID LEE.

Now if you put Kanter around 4 or 5 really good defenders and a really good defensive coaching staff, you could hide his defensive flaws like the knicks did with Allan Houston.

His a good team guy and has a lot of heart, but he is not even 50% worth that 18 mill

I gotta go with you not knowing WTF youre talking about. Kanter can defend in the paint. David Lee used to avoid contact like the plague. Mostly jazzhands defense. Kanter lets the player he's defending, slam right into him, doesnt back down.

When it came to rebounds, Lee padded his stats, many of his rebounds were when both teams were running to the other side of the court. Kanter is a very aggressive rebounder, post player. Lee was all about finesse.

David Lee was soft Kanter isnt. Willy was David Lee, was saying that all season long.

sort of. If his position is good he has his moments. He certainly holds his ground and is physical. However he cant adjust at all and the minute he's even slightly out of position the opposing C gets such easy looks.

The #s dont lie... Opposing Cs have an effective FG% of .611
I mean he gets scored on at will
http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK21.HTM

He brings a lot of other things... the intensity, physical play and rebounding are keys and can really help. He's also young.

I love him as a 25mpg guy until we have a better two way player. I would not like to lose him for nothing but I would prefer that to paying him 4/$80mm

awe1028 wrote:For those who want Kanter gone I refer you to game 1 of the GS Houston series. Draymond Green punked arguably Houston's best player and the Rockets rolled up into a ball, curled up into the fetal position, cried for their mommas, cried uncle I could go on on.
Do you think if Kanter was on the court that would have happened? If kanter was there do you think Green would have tried it and even if he did do you think Kanter would have let him get away with it.
Green stepped to James Harden and in that one moment he took Houston's heart and for all intents and purposes this series is over
To those who are so anxious to get rid of Kanter I say to be careful what you wish for.

JaMarcus Russell went first overall to the Oakland Raiders under the last days of Al Davis' time in the league. I've seen Russell up close several times, including his Combine. Without pads, he was one of the most impressive physical athletic specimens to ever walk the Earth. Lazy and a knucklehead, but just in terms of raw God given physical talent, the guy was a true beef eater.

Something mentioned often was how Russell's vaunted arm strength. Since most of us endured the Chad Pennington years, we all understand how arm strength matters. Not many guys, even NFL guys, can throw a football off their back foot, across the field, 60 yard downfield like it shot out of a rocket launcher.

What NO ONE wanted to bring up to Al Davis was the reality that you aren't going to be in that situation very often in real game situations. That might happen a couple of times a game at most. If that. In the end, the cerebral less physically talented dinker and dunker, some offshoot of a West Coast Offense disciple, would be more useful running an NFL offense.

How often do you need an enforcer in the NBA? And esp the CURRENT NBA , which has all but eliminated the traditional enforcer role ( the last was Danny Fortson) It's a modern "space and pace" game. And if you need a guy to throw a few elbows, can you get that at a fraction of Kanter's price?

The marketplace value for a "tough guy" is way way less than what Kanter is making right now.

He doesn't defend the rim and he doesn't space the floor. I am mind boggled as to how anyone here can argue to keep paying him 20 million a year. He is giving good effort, he also wants a new contract. No one seems to want to remember the days he dogged it before he got to NY. Also his actual job, if he's doing it right, is to QUARTERBACK THE DEFENSE. He does not understand where to be or why. So he's going to do that for his team mates?

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Kanter's defense isnt so bad that it negates his offense.

Yeah it is

GustavBahler wrote:I guess you missed watching the many games this season, where the only player keeping us in the game was Kanter.

I can’t think of one game where Kanter carried the team. Maybe a Miami game. That’s it.

Oh the Xmas game where they lost

Which others?

As it relates to my original point of Kanter being often the only player standing between the Knicks and a blowout, absolutely. All those double/doubles had an impact. I dont know why you didnt notice. Again, its about matchups.

Kanter's D was better all around with KP. A string of early injuries, slowed him down some. Then KP was gone, and it was undersized big men, and G leaguers as his wingmen.

I don't quite understand your response.

I can't remember many games where Kanter's play impacted games. I listed 2 that I could recall, one was a win one was not. Can you recall any other?

Double doubles are nice but they certainly feel very empty. Kanter's D next to KP is more about KP than Kanter.

I don't even like THJr's defense but at least he had impact on many games, often carrying team either for half or full game and to wins. I just don't see that with Kanter.

And if you plan to give him anything above $10-15M per year, I would expect impact.

Not Kanter's call to sit in the 4th, did that alot. During the time he was alloted, Kanter kept the Knicks in the game. He made the most of his minutes. If Kanter wasnt putting up a double double by halftime, the game would already be over, not that complicated.

Same thing happened to Lopez with Fisher. Heard the same complaints Its why we cant hold on to decent big men. Wanting to find bigs who are already finished product, and at a discount.

I dont believe there is a center out there you guys will sign off on unless its Embiid or Towns. We have no starting backcourt to speak of, no starting SF of note. But lets jettison one good center after another, even though we are years from contending. Lets stick with G-leaguers.

Maybe third time will be a charm?

Let me know when you can find a game where Kanter had an impact. Maybe it's you who aren't really paying attention to the games.

Define "Impact"

Like key player on route to a win

Sounds like you are refering to a "closer". Kanter really didnt have much of an opportunity to do that. After Fisher was fired, Lopez was allowed to play consistent minutes in the 4th, and went on a tear. The jury is still out on Kanter IMO.

Believe we have seen enough of what Kanter can do to take the heat off of the backcourt, which needs a lot of work and development.

The players we need to worry about closing are mostly in the backcourt, which includes PGs getting Kanter the ball where he can do the most damage.

The money you are saying is in the range we should offer Kanter now, is what were paying Lopez 3 years ago, and that was considered a bargain.

Kanter would have an expiring contract in 2 years, if he didnt improve enough. Year 3 with Fizdale (we hope) on a successful rebuild would allow the Knicks either to let Kanter walk, and upgrade if possible, or take the team option and make a run if the Knicks are ready by that point.

Want to see if Kanter can take his game to the next level, while KP rehabs. They looked real solid early on, were starting to play a 2 man game. Want to see what they can do as a tandem after KP gets back, and probably an even better player.

These are rebuilding years, we are likely drafting for the backcourt. Good time to give Kanter a shot.

You ask me to clarify what I mean by impact and then you redefine it to something else. Kanter doesn't play 4th quarters for a reason and it's been ongoing his entire career under multiple coaches. He is a stats anomaly in points and rebounds and PER at half game clips but curiously can't stay on the court for end of games, well curious to some.

This is pretty simple stuff. Kanter doesn't really impact games and certainly not for wins. Can he put up stats for a couple of quarters? Sure. Is it a long term net positive? Not really.

For me Kanter is a likable guy but a faux warrior pounding his chest and smiling into the camera.

You gave a very nebulous definition of an impact player. I tried to narrow it down.

"Faux warriors" dont get one serious contact injury after another and play through them when others wouldnt. Where do you get this ****?

You dont believe he will ever be your definition of an impact player, fine. That other stuff is crap.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Kanter's defense isnt so bad that it negates his offense.

Yeah it is

GustavBahler wrote:I guess you missed watching the many games this season, where the only player keeping us in the game was Kanter.

I can’t think of one game where Kanter carried the team. Maybe a Miami game. That’s it.

Oh the Xmas game where they lost

Which others?

As it relates to my original point of Kanter being often the only player standing between the Knicks and a blowout, absolutely. All those double/doubles had an impact. I dont know why you didnt notice. Again, its about matchups.

Kanter's D was better all around with KP. A string of early injuries, slowed him down some. Then KP was gone, and it was undersized big men, and G leaguers as his wingmen.

I don't quite understand your response.

I can't remember many games where Kanter's play impacted games. I listed 2 that I could recall, one was a win one was not. Can you recall any other?

Double doubles are nice but they certainly feel very empty. Kanter's D next to KP is more about KP than Kanter.

I don't even like THJr's defense but at least he had impact on many games, often carrying team either for half or full game and to wins. I just don't see that with Kanter.

And if you plan to give him anything above $10-15M per year, I would expect impact.

Not Kanter's call to sit in the 4th, did that alot. During the time he was alloted, Kanter kept the Knicks in the game. He made the most of his minutes. If Kanter wasnt putting up a double double by halftime, the game would already be over, not that complicated.

Same thing happened to Lopez with Fisher. Heard the same complaints Its why we cant hold on to decent big men. Wanting to find bigs who are already finished product, and at a discount.

I dont believe there is a center out there you guys will sign off on unless its Embiid or Towns. We have no starting backcourt to speak of, no starting SF of note. But lets jettison one good center after another, even though we are years from contending. Lets stick with G-leaguers.

Maybe third time will be a charm?

Let me know when you can find a game where Kanter had an impact. Maybe it's you who aren't really paying attention to the games.

Define "Impact"

Like key player on route to a win

Sounds like you are refering to a "closer". Kanter really didnt have much of an opportunity to do that. After Fisher was fired, Lopez was allowed to play consistent minutes in the 4th, and went on a tear. The jury is still out on Kanter IMO.

Believe we have seen enough of what Kanter can do to take the heat off of the backcourt, which needs a lot of work and development.

The players we need to worry about closing are mostly in the backcourt, which includes PGs getting Kanter the ball where he can do the most damage.

The money you are saying is in the range we should offer Kanter now, is what were paying Lopez 3 years ago, and that was considered a bargain.

Kanter would have an expiring contract in 2 years, if he didnt improve enough. Year 3 with Fizdale (we hope) on a successful rebuild would allow the Knicks either to let Kanter walk, and upgrade if possible, or take the team option and make a run if the Knicks are ready by that point.

Want to see if Kanter can take his game to the next level, while KP rehabs. They looked real solid early on, were starting to play a 2 man game. Want to see what they can do as a tandem after KP gets back, and probably an even better player.

These are rebuilding years, we are likely drafting for the backcourt. Good time to give Kanter a shot.

You ask me to clarify what I mean by impact and then you redefine it to something else. Kanter doesn't play 4th quarters for a reason and it's been ongoing his entire career under multiple coaches. He is a stats anomaly in points and rebounds and PER at half game clips but curiously can't stay on the court for end of games, well curious to some.

This is pretty simple stuff. Kanter doesn't really impact games and certainly not for wins. Can he put up stats for a couple of quarters? Sure. Is it a long term net positive? Not really.

For me Kanter is a likable guy but a faux warrior pounding his chest and smiling into the camera.

You gave a very nebulous definition of an impact player. I tried to narrow it down.

"Faux warriors" dont get one serious contact injury after another and play through them when others wouldnt. Where do you get this ****?

You dont believe he will ever be your definition of an impact player, fine. That other stuff is crap.

"Faux warriors" wasnt a knock on Kanter's toughness.. he's tough. It was in reference to his over all lack of impact. He's demonstrative and animated and... doesnt impact the game. That is the argument, that after all the fist pumps and crashing boards does Kanter make us a better basketball team? Better enough to justify his cost?

The numbers are not favorable in terms of Kanter's impact. When you pump your fist and beat your chest but actually arent really helping your team win one *might* say "warrior" isnt the best fit for his role on the team.

Its like saying "I didnt mean this kind of douche, I meant that kind of douche. I dont have a problem with a player beating his chest for getting an And1, after getting clobbered. I dont see Kanter flexing over tip-ins.

I dont have an issue with bringing up the holes in Kanter's game, he has some. It can be done without impying he's soft. Its more about positioning, than a lack of fight in him.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Kanter's defense isnt so bad that it negates his offense.

Yeah it is

GustavBahler wrote:I guess you missed watching the many games this season, where the only player keeping us in the game was Kanter.

I can’t think of one game where Kanter carried the team. Maybe a Miami game. That’s it.

Oh the Xmas game where they lost

Which others?

As it relates to my original point of Kanter being often the only player standing between the Knicks and a blowout, absolutely. All those double/doubles had an impact. I dont know why you didnt notice. Again, its about matchups.

Kanter's D was better all around with KP. A string of early injuries, slowed him down some. Then KP was gone, and it was undersized big men, and G leaguers as his wingmen.

I don't quite understand your response.

I can't remember many games where Kanter's play impacted games. I listed 2 that I could recall, one was a win one was not. Can you recall any other?

Double doubles are nice but they certainly feel very empty. Kanter's D next to KP is more about KP than Kanter.

I don't even like THJr's defense but at least he had impact on many games, often carrying team either for half or full game and to wins. I just don't see that with Kanter.

And if you plan to give him anything above $10-15M per year, I would expect impact.

Not Kanter's call to sit in the 4th, did that alot. During the time he was alloted, Kanter kept the Knicks in the game. He made the most of his minutes. If Kanter wasnt putting up a double double by halftime, the game would already be over, not that complicated.

Same thing happened to Lopez with Fisher. Heard the same complaints Its why we cant hold on to decent big men. Wanting to find bigs who are already finished product, and at a discount.

I dont believe there is a center out there you guys will sign off on unless its Embiid or Towns. We have no starting backcourt to speak of, no starting SF of note. But lets jettison one good center after another, even though we are years from contending. Lets stick with G-leaguers.

Maybe third time will be a charm?

Let me know when you can find a game where Kanter had an impact. Maybe it's you who aren't really paying attention to the games.

Define "Impact"

Like key player on route to a win

Sounds like you are refering to a "closer". Kanter really didnt have much of an opportunity to do that. After Fisher was fired, Lopez was allowed to play consistent minutes in the 4th, and went on a tear. The jury is still out on Kanter IMO.

Believe we have seen enough of what Kanter can do to take the heat off of the backcourt, which needs a lot of work and development.

The players we need to worry about closing are mostly in the backcourt, which includes PGs getting Kanter the ball where he can do the most damage.

The money you are saying is in the range we should offer Kanter now, is what were paying Lopez 3 years ago, and that was considered a bargain.

Kanter would have an expiring contract in 2 years, if he didnt improve enough. Year 3 with Fizdale (we hope) on a successful rebuild would allow the Knicks either to let Kanter walk, and upgrade if possible, or take the team option and make a run if the Knicks are ready by that point.

Want to see if Kanter can take his game to the next level, while KP rehabs. They looked real solid early on, were starting to play a 2 man game. Want to see what they can do as a tandem after KP gets back, and probably an even better player.

These are rebuilding years, we are likely drafting for the backcourt. Good time to give Kanter a shot.

You ask me to clarify what I mean by impact and then you redefine it to something else. Kanter doesn't play 4th quarters for a reason and it's been ongoing his entire career under multiple coaches. He is a stats anomaly in points and rebounds and PER at half game clips but curiously can't stay on the court for end of games, well curious to some.

This is pretty simple stuff. Kanter doesn't really impact games and certainly not for wins. Can he put up stats for a couple of quarters? Sure. Is it a long term net positive? Not really.

For me Kanter is a likable guy but a faux warrior pounding his chest and smiling into the camera.

You gave a very nebulous definition of an impact player. I tried to narrow it down.

"Faux warriors" dont get one serious contact injury after another and play through them when others wouldnt. Where do you get this ****?

You dont believe he will ever be your definition of an impact player, fine. That other stuff is crap.

"Faux warriors" wasnt a knock on Kanter's toughness.. he's tough. It was in reference to his over all lack of impact. He's demonstrative and animated and... doesnt impact the game. That is the argument, that after all the fist pumps and crashing boards does Kanter make us a better basketball team? Better enough to justify his cost?

The numbers are not favorable in terms of Kanter's impact. When you pump your fist and beat your chest but actually arent really helping your team win one *might* say "warrior" isnt the best fit for his role on the team.

Its like saying "I didnt mean this kind of douche, I meant that kind of douche. I dont have a problem with a player beating his chest for getting an And1, after getting clobbered. I dont see Kanter flexing over tip-ins.

I dont have an issue with bringing up the holes in Kanter's game, he has some. It can be done without impying he's soft. Its more about positioning, than a lack of fight in him.

Sorry... being a fan of the 90s Knicks I am not impressed with KAnter's warriorhood. Is he soft? No. He's not. Is he a warrior? At least until he's gotta guard the pick and roll... or just guard period. Hard to call anyone a warrior when they get scored on like a drunken prom date.

Never called Kanter a "warrior", dont believe Ive called any player that on this board. The polar opposite of Warrior is "Faux Warrior". Dont agree with that characterization.

I understand that Kanter can be a frustrating player to watch at times. Unless Perry/Mills picks a big, I believe a player like Kanter who can make a young backcourt's job easier would be worth it. Especially if Kanter opts in.

Dont know the validity of the rumour, but I read that Doncic may drop past a few teams. No way he drops to 9, but it could push a player to 9 they werent expecting.

I think he wants to emulate Miami style of play when they had the 3 headed monster. Obviously less talented. But they had Bosh at center and athletes on the wing with shooters sprinkled in. Played a swarming trapping style of defense looking for stls to convert into fast break points. With everyone from the 4-1 able to push the ball up the court. Off a rebound or TO.

newyorknewyork wrote:Fizz had his beef with Gasol. I don't see Kanter fitting into Fizz vision for the team. Fizz is gonna want to push the pace.

I think he wants to emulate Miami style of play when they had the 3 headed monster. Obviously less talented. But they had Bosh at center and athletes on the wing with shooters sprinkled in. Played a swarming trapping style of defense looking for stls to convert into fast break points. With everyone from the 4-1 able to push the ball up the court. Off a rebound or TO.

it's actually a very curious situation. One could reasonably think that if Fizz is some defensive guru, imagine the player we would have if he could upgrade Kanter's D. Haven't heard a peep on that; perhaps Fizz is already signed off on him being incurable

Chandler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Fizz had his beef with Gasol. I don't see Kanter fitting into Fizz vision for the team. Fizz is gonna want to push the pace.

I think he wants to emulate Miami style of play when they had the 3 headed monster. Obviously less talented. But they had Bosh at center and athletes on the wing with shooters sprinkled in. Played a swarming trapping style of defense looking for stls to convert into fast break points. With everyone from the 4-1 able to push the ball up the court. Off a rebound or TO.

it's actually a very curious situation. One could reasonably think that if Fizz is some defensive guru, imagine the player we would have if he could upgrade Kanter's D. Haven't heard a peep on that; perhaps Fizz is already signed off on him being incurable

you've got to try to win with the players you have - and right now, Kanter might be back next year.

He is definitely a throw back to an era of back to the basket centers. I'd like to think a system can take advantage of his strengths on offense, and that with better athletes, we can help cover some of his weaknesses on the defensive end.

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Fizz had his beef with Gasol. I don't see Kanter fitting into Fizz vision for the team. Fizz is gonna want to push the pace.

I think he wants to emulate Miami style of play when they had the 3 headed monster. Obviously less talented. But they had Bosh at center and athletes on the wing with shooters sprinkled in. Played a swarming trapping style of defense looking for stls to convert into fast break points. With everyone from the 4-1 able to push the ball up the court. Off a rebound or TO.

it's actually a very curious situation. One could reasonably think that if Fizz is some defensive guru, imagine the player we would have if he could upgrade Kanter's D. Haven't heard a peep on that; perhaps Fizz is already signed off on him being incurable

you've got to try to win with the players you have - and right now, Kanter might be back next year.

He is definitely a throw back to an era of back to the basket centers. I'd like to think a system can take advantage of his strengths on offense, and that with better athletes, we can help cover some of his weaknesses on the defensive end.

I don't see much versatility in Kanter. He is a bulldog with 1 offensive move (power/spin to basket). Zero range on shot, only does layups and shots within like 7 feet. His bounce is not good but he is sneaky around rim. Horrid passer and doesn't see double teams. Mostly a black hole once an entry pass gets to him in the post.

The role he is destined for is the one he had in OKC. Instant offense off the bench.

TripleThreat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Want to see if Kanter can take his game to the next level, while KP rehabs. ...

Kanter is outside his prime developmental window. Once a player is midway through his third season (barring massive injury and barring just not getting any kind of reasonable playing time), what you see is about what you are going to get.

You guys can argue all day about what he currently gives is either good enough or not good enough (I would fall in the not good enough camp...), but what is going to remain static is his strengths and flaws are pretty much set in stone at this point.

Can a player dramatically develop outside his prime developmental window? In theory. In theory, it's possible the sun won't come up tomorrow.

What Rick Carlisle did with Farouq Aminu and aging Vince Carter are better examples. Aminu was a headcase douchebag who wanted to stay in the league. Carter needed a paycheck and was no longer a franchise player/first option. Carter did not develop, he simply started doing things he could always do, he just didn't care. Aminu had the talent base, but was lazy/dumb.

That you cite Kanters big effort all the time ( as a Knicks) actually detracts from any notion that he could develop a bit further.

If the Knicks are going to spend money, they need to do it on the wing. Every team need more help at the wing. Wings are like MLB starting pitchers and NFL cornerbacks, you can never have too many. Even if Kanter as a truly useful player ( sorry , he's not), that kind of resource push with Noah's ugly contract here just makes the positional cap bloat much harder on the team.

You see Kanter as a truly useful player. And you are right, if he was making 7 million AAV on a two year deal with a team option for the 2nd year. At the AAV you are talking, he's a liability.

I'd like to keep Kanter - disagree with what you said about players being able to develop beyond his 'development window'- but at the end of the day, I agree that at the wrong price, we can't and shouldn't keep Kanter.

7MM might be too extreme - but $10-12M, probably just about right.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Fizz had his beef with Gasol. I don't see Kanter fitting into Fizz vision for the team. Fizz is gonna want to push the pace.

I think he wants to emulate Miami style of play when they had the 3 headed monster. Obviously less talented. But they had Bosh at center and athletes on the wing with shooters sprinkled in. Played a swarming trapping style of defense looking for stls to convert into fast break points. With everyone from the 4-1 able to push the ball up the court. Off a rebound or TO.

it's actually a very curious situation. One could reasonably think that if Fizz is some defensive guru, imagine the player we would have if he could upgrade Kanter's D. Haven't heard a peep on that; perhaps Fizz is already signed off on him being incurable

you've got to try to win with the players you have - and right now, Kanter might be back next year.

He is definitely a throw back to an era of back to the basket centers. I'd like to think a system can take advantage of his strengths on offense, and that with better athletes, we can help cover some of his weaknesses on the defensive end.

I don't see much versatility in Kanter. He is a bulldog with 1 offensive move (power/spin to basket). Zero range on shot, only does layups and shots within like 7 feet. His bounce is not good but he is sneaky around rim. Horrid passer and doesn't see double teams. Mostly a black hole once an entry pass gets to him in the post.

The role he is destined for is the one he had in OKC. Instant offense off the bench.

And nothing else.

So the question remains is the going rate now $20mil per year for that? He's young, he's already making 18mil; I don't see how our FO pays him 20 mil if he opts out. He's just going end up being a fond memory for some.