Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:total bull****, and the its regurgitated bull****, the worst kind.

This has literally become cliches of bad reporting: "Ntilikina was a triangle pick"

5 B's
3 C's
3 D's
3 F's

Who cares. Its ESPN. They mocked the Knicks at the ESPYs.

ESPN treats the Knicks like FoxNews treats Obama.

Genuine question.

When have they been wrong?

It seems like every year the press is down in the Knicks in the offeason, fans are more optimistic, and the fans complain the press are just Knicks haters.

Then the Knicks go out and have a year eerily like the one the haters predicted they would.

I mean, am i wrong here? When have the Knicks exceeded the pre-season hate by the press?

thats the point. There is no expectation. No win total. No mention of whether or not THjr is a good fit, or anything besides they overpaid. The only way you can sign and RFA is to overpay.

So yea... when I say "you suck" with no real quantifiable justification then yea... its hating.

If the all the press has done is non-quantified, non-justified hating the last 15 years and fans have done more quantified, more justified analysis and has been routinely more positive in that same time, the question is simple ...

Who's been more right at the end of the day?

I don't care who is it or how it was done or when it was done. If you've been "hating" on the Knicks over the last couple of decades, you've mostly been correct.

That matters.

There is no way to really rate our off season until years down the road. As rating the off season doesnt just mean how we will perform this coming season. If 5 yrs down the road Frank is on an all-star team then that pick was a huge success. And nobody can claim they know how any pick will turn out 5 years from now.

Hardaway Jr signing isnt an F grade signing. Noah is an F grade signing. Given his injury history and age and declining performance compared to his contract. Hardaway Jr is more like a C with the potential for B.

Baker signing can be rated as an F. But that's still only a 2 year 9mil commitment at the end of the day and shouldnt destroy the overall grade.

What if Dotson becomes a contributor 3 yrs from now. Nabbing him in the 2nd round would hold more weight then signing Baker for a 2 yr 9mil deal in the grand scheme of things.

That's fair and legitimate. But the same standard was applied to all 30 teams. It's a stronger argument that the whole Pelton piece was just premature and shortsighted, than it was purposely targeting the Knicks.

I would agree with this except the only other two teams to get Fs lost franchise talents this offseason. The Knicks added talent and improved the front office even with Mills still in place.

I don't have any issue with disagreements with the piece, I take issue with the idea Knick "haters" is a thing and that Pelton is one of them.

You can't be a hater and be right at the same time.

ALL the Knicks "haters" over the years have been ultimately proven to have taken the correct position.

Take issue all you want. The article comes from ESPN and that is about as anti Knick as it gets. Defending Pelton here against "Knick hate" is like saying not *every* article from Fox has an anti-Obama agenda. Who really cares. You know what your getting from Fox, just like you know what your getting from ESPN.

There was nothing informative, interesting or even new. There was a single goal, dump on the Knicks. As Crush mentioned the only other Fs lost key franchise players. Knicks got an F for drafting a "triangle PG" and overpaying THjr. Sorry you have issues! This is Knick hate.

Simple question - How do we know ESPN has an anti-Knick basis?

Anyone who has been overly critical of/pessimistic towards the Knicks has overwhelmingly been right to be so.

EVERY off-season the media is down on the Knicks and fans think they're just "dumping" on the Knicks. Then the season starts and it turns out what they predicted comes true.

How can you be "anti" and correct at the same time?

How about we start with the ESPYs?

If you like.

What does that mean?

It means that ESPN has an anti-Knick bias.

Okay, when have they been wrong to be anti-Knicks?

37, 17, 31, 32 wins.

4 winning seasons since 2000, 1 postseason series win and 7 individual postseason game wins in a league in which more than half the league qualify for the postseason. Nw coach every 2 years or so, new president/GM every every 3-4 years. For years had consistently one of the highest payrolls in the league despite a lack of success.

The "anti"-approach seems objectively to be the consistently accurate approach.

Right?

predicting a low win total isnt anti. Its making a prediction. Where is the win total for prediction from this guy? Sorry... I missed it. If he had said 38 wins like the other guy then we would have something to talk about. Pelton shows no such accountability. See how that that works?

No, Pelton does annual win predictions in a different post. He simply hasn't gotten to it yet. The season doesn't start for months.

Scroll back, I provided a link to Pelton's statistical model predictions for last season last night. He/his model was optimistic - he/it predicted 34 wins.

Many here disputed his prediction as too low and numbers based and not taking "common sense" factors into consideration.

Also I am reacting to this article from ESPN where no win totals or basketball analysis is really offered. Just your basic Frank is a triangle PG and Knicks overpaid so offseason is an F. That is taking an anti-Knick stance from an venue with a long history of anti-Knick stances. Its pretty simple.

Perry seems to be a good hire and a guy with experience. Jeff is a good coach and should be given two years to move this franchise to the playoffs.
KP drama seems to be abated for now so the points off for that, and for PHil should be "incomplete".
as for frank, I'd rather Perry have made this pick but we have a just turned 19 year old kid who might be still growing and we might be discounteing his ability because:

1. Phil picked him.
2. He is a euro and played limited minutes.
3. No starphuching March madness or AAU youtube of the kid.
4. We are damaged fans with a predisposition to negative bias to our yoots.

This kid might be the most rock solid leader for the next 13 years!!! WE don't know. Dennis smith didn't want to be here. Maybe a triangle thing at the time, a NY pressure thing, but if he don't want to be here then thats cool.
As for the ESPN bias I think we have earned it and the kmicks have to prove otherwise to change peoples minds.
The ball don't lie. The rest is noise!!!

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:total bull****, and the its regurgitated bull****, the worst kind.

This has literally become cliches of bad reporting: "Ntilikina was a triangle pick"

5 B's
3 C's
3 D's
3 F's

Who cares. Its ESPN. They mocked the Knicks at the ESPYs.

ESPN treats the Knicks like FoxNews treats Obama.

Genuine question.

When have they been wrong?

It seems like every year the press is down in the Knicks in the offeason, fans are more optimistic, and the fans complain the press are just Knicks haters.

Then the Knicks go out and have a year eerily like the one the haters predicted they would.

I mean, am i wrong here? When have the Knicks exceeded the pre-season hate by the press?

thats the point. There is no expectation. No win total. No mention of whether or not THjr is a good fit, or anything besides they overpaid. The only way you can sign and RFA is to overpay.

So yea... when I say "you suck" with no real quantifiable justification then yea... its hating.

If the all the press has done is non-quantified, non-justified hating the last 15 years and fans have done more quantified, more justified analysis and has been routinely more positive in that same time, the question is simple ...

Who's been more right at the end of the day?

I don't care who is it or how it was done or when it was done. If you've been "hating" on the Knicks over the last couple of decades, you've mostly been correct.

That matters.

There is no way to really rate our off season until years down the road. As rating the off season doesnt just mean how we will perform this coming season. If 5 yrs down the road Frank is on an all-star team then that pick was a huge success. And nobody can claim they know how any pick will turn out 5 years from now.

Hardaway Jr signing isnt an F grade signing. Noah is an F grade signing. Given his injury history and age and declining performance compared to his contract. Hardaway Jr is more like a C with the potential for B.

Baker signing can be rated as an F. But that's still only a 2 year 9mil commitment at the end of the day and shouldnt destroy the overall grade.

What if Dotson becomes a contributor 3 yrs from now. Nabbing him in the 2nd round would hold more weight then signing Baker for a 2 yr 9mil deal in the grand scheme of things.

That's fair and legitimate. But the same standard was applied to all 30 teams. It's a stronger argument that the whole Pelton piece was just premature and shortsighted, than it was purposely targeting the Knicks.

I would agree with this except the only other two teams to get Fs lost franchise talents this offseason. The Knicks added talent and improved the front office even with Mills still in place.

I don't have any issue with disagreements with the piece, I take issue with the idea Knick "haters" is a thing and that Pelton is one of them.

You can't be a hater and be right at the same time.

ALL the Knicks "haters" over the years have been ultimately proven to have taken the correct position.

Take issue all you want. The article comes from ESPN and that is about as anti Knick as it gets. Defending Pelton here against "Knick hate" is like saying not *every* article from Fox has an anti-Obama agenda. Who really cares. You know what your getting from Fox, just like you know what your getting from ESPN.

There was nothing informative, interesting or even new. There was a single goal, dump on the Knicks. As Crush mentioned the only other Fs lost key franchise players. Knicks got an F for drafting a "triangle PG" and overpaying THjr. Sorry you have issues! This is Knick hate.

Simple question - How do we know ESPN has an anti-Knick basis?

Anyone who has been overly critical of/pessimistic towards the Knicks has overwhelmingly been right to be so.

EVERY off-season the media is down on the Knicks and fans think they're just "dumping" on the Knicks. Then the season starts and it turns out what they predicted comes true.

How can you be "anti" and correct at the same time?

How about we start with the ESPYs?

If you like.

What does that mean?

It means that ESPN has an anti-Knick bias.

Okay, when have they been wrong to be anti-Knicks?

37, 17, 31, 32 wins.

4 winning seasons since 2000, 1 postseason series win and 7 individual postseason game wins in a league in which more than half the league qualify for the postseason. Nw coach every 2 years or so, new president/GM every every 3-4 years. For years had consistently one of the highest payrolls in the league despite a lack of success.

The "anti"-approach seems objectively to be the consistently accurate approach.

Right?

predicting a low win total isnt anti. Its making a prediction. Where is the win total for prediction from this guy? Sorry... I missed it. If he had said 38 wins like the other guy then we would have something to talk about. Pelton shows no such accountability. See how that that works?

No, Pelton does annual win predictions in a different post. He simply hasn't gotten to it yet. The season doesn't start for months.

Scroll back, I provided a link to Pelton's statistical model predictions for last season last night. He/his model was optimistic - he/it predicted 34 wins.

Many here disputed his prediction as too low and numbers based and not taking "common sense" factors into consideration.

He's grading what's been done so far. It's like a mid-term grade. I expect he'll do the win prediction at the end of the off-season. Grades and win predictions are two separate things. I wouldn't say that only one is valid. They just give different information. You could have a high win total and a low grade (perhaps the team was previously great but you had a bad off-season) or low win total and good grade.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:total bull****, and the its regurgitated bull****, the worst kind.

This has literally become cliches of bad reporting: "Ntilikina was a triangle pick"

5 B's
3 C's
3 D's
3 F's

Who cares. Its ESPN. They mocked the Knicks at the ESPYs.

ESPN treats the Knicks like FoxNews treats Obama.

Genuine question.

When have they been wrong?

It seems like every year the press is down in the Knicks in the offeason, fans are more optimistic, and the fans complain the press are just Knicks haters.

Then the Knicks go out and have a year eerily like the one the haters predicted they would.

I mean, am i wrong here? When have the Knicks exceeded the pre-season hate by the press?

thats the point. There is no expectation. No win total. No mention of whether or not THjr is a good fit, or anything besides they overpaid. The only way you can sign and RFA is to overpay.

So yea... when I say "you suck" with no real quantifiable justification then yea... its hating.

If the all the press has done is non-quantified, non-justified hating the last 15 years and fans have done more quantified, more justified analysis and has been routinely more positive in that same time, the question is simple ...

Who's been more right at the end of the day?

I don't care who is it or how it was done or when it was done. If you've been "hating" on the Knicks over the last couple of decades, you've mostly been correct.

That matters.

There is no way to really rate our off season until years down the road. As rating the off season doesnt just mean how we will perform this coming season. If 5 yrs down the road Frank is on an all-star team then that pick was a huge success. And nobody can claim they know how any pick will turn out 5 years from now.

Hardaway Jr signing isnt an F grade signing. Noah is an F grade signing. Given his injury history and age and declining performance compared to his contract. Hardaway Jr is more like a C with the potential for B.

Baker signing can be rated as an F. But that's still only a 2 year 9mil commitment at the end of the day and shouldnt destroy the overall grade.

What if Dotson becomes a contributor 3 yrs from now. Nabbing him in the 2nd round would hold more weight then signing Baker for a 2 yr 9mil deal in the grand scheme of things.

That's fair and legitimate. But the same standard was applied to all 30 teams. It's a stronger argument that the whole Pelton piece was just premature and shortsighted, than it was purposely targeting the Knicks.

I would agree with this except the only other two teams to get Fs lost franchise talents this offseason. The Knicks added talent and improved the front office even with Mills still in place.

I don't have any issue with disagreements with the piece, I take issue with the idea Knick "haters" is a thing and that Pelton is one of them.

You can't be a hater and be right at the same time.

ALL the Knicks "haters" over the years have been ultimately proven to have taken the correct position.

Take issue all you want. The article comes from ESPN and that is about as anti Knick as it gets. Defending Pelton here against "Knick hate" is like saying not *every* article from Fox has an anti-Obama agenda. Who really cares. You know what your getting from Fox, just like you know what your getting from ESPN.

There was nothing informative, interesting or even new. There was a single goal, dump on the Knicks. As Crush mentioned the only other Fs lost key franchise players. Knicks got an F for drafting a "triangle PG" and overpaying THjr. Sorry you have issues! This is Knick hate.

Simple question - How do we know ESPN has an anti-Knick basis?

Anyone who has been overly critical of/pessimistic towards the Knicks has overwhelmingly been right to be so.

EVERY off-season the media is down on the Knicks and fans think they're just "dumping" on the Knicks. Then the season starts and it turns out what they predicted comes true.

How can you be "anti" and correct at the same time?

How about we start with the ESPYs?

If you like.

What does that mean?

It means that ESPN has an anti-Knick bias.

Okay, when have they been wrong to be anti-Knicks?

37, 17, 31, 32 wins.

4 winning seasons since 2000, 1 postseason series win and 7 individual postseason game wins in a league in which more than half the league qualify for the postseason. Nw coach every 2 years or so, new president/GM every every 3-4 years. For years had consistently one of the highest payrolls in the league despite a lack of success.

The "anti"-approach seems objectively to be the consistently accurate approach.

Right?

predicting a low win total isnt anti. Its making a prediction. Where is the win total for prediction from this guy? Sorry... I missed it. If he had said 38 wins like the other guy then we would have something to talk about. Pelton shows no such accountability. See how that that works?

No, Pelton does annual win predictions in a different post. He simply hasn't gotten to it yet. The season doesn't start for months.

Scroll back, I provided a link to Pelton's statistical model predictions for last season last night. He/his model was optimistic - he/it predicted 34 wins.

Many here disputed his prediction as too low and numbers based and not taking "common sense" factors into consideration.

He's grading what's been done so far. It's like a mid-term grade. I expect he'll do the win prediction at the end of the off-season. Grades and win predictions are two separate things. I wouldn't say that only one is valid. They just give different information. You could have a high win total and a low grade (perhaps the team was previously great but you had a bad off-season) or low win total and good grade.

What information did Pelton share above? I didnt see any. That was my knock on his take on the Knicks in first place. Its was negative with no info

Do you have the same issue with his grades for all 30 teams, including the ones with negative grades, or exclusively the Knicks?

Cartman718 wrote:Interestingly, the steal of the draft, MVP in fact, for multiple years for summer league was Nate Robinson. Where is he now?
They (ESPN) know damn well that "steal of the draft" is statement that can be made years down the line, but gotta get people to read your stupid article, no?

I have news for people: The entire sports media is built around analyzing what just occurred when anyone half-familiar with sports knows the long-view is the smart view.

You just can't fill column inches and TV time saying "yeah, but wait a few months" over and over.

Forums like this wouldn't exist if that was the default view. We all do the same thing.

Instant analysis, early prediction, small sample size, recent trends assumed to be long ones. Nobody is any less guilty of this.

Knickoftime wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:Interestingly, the steal of the draft, MVP in fact, for multiple years for summer league was Nate Robinson. Where is he now?
They (ESPN) know damn well that "steal of the draft" is statement that can be made years down the line, but gotta get people to read your stupid article, no?

I have news for people: The entire sports media is built around analyzing what just occurred when anyone half-familiar with sports knows the long-view is the smart view.

You just can't fill column inches and TV time saying "yeah, but wait a few months" over and over.

Forums like this wouldn't exist if that was the default view. We all do the same thing.

Instant analysis, early prediction, small sample size, recent trends assumed to be long ones. Nobody is any less guilty of this.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:Interestingly, the steal of the draft, MVP in fact, for multiple years for summer league was Nate Robinson. Where is he now?
They (ESPN) know damn well that "steal of the draft" is statement that can be made years down the line, but gotta get people to read your stupid article, no?

I have news for people: The entire sports media is built around analyzing what just occurred when anyone half-familiar with sports knows the long-view is the smart view.

You just can't fill column inches and TV time saying "yeah, but wait a few months" over and over.

Forums like this wouldn't exist if that was the default view. We all do the same thing.

Instant analysis, early prediction, small sample size, recent trends assumed to be long ones. Nobody is any less guilty of this.

sure... and when that analysis comes with context and info it can have value. When the only context is bias and the only info is old, cliche and uninteresting than the analysis isnt worth much. Like the Knick section of this article.

There are two kinds of sports fans in the world:

95% of them genuinely believe the media is biased against their team.

5% of them understand that universal dynamic and can't do a thing to convince the 95% that don't.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:Interestingly, the steal of the draft, MVP in fact, for multiple years for summer league was Nate Robinson. Where is he now?
They (ESPN) know damn well that "steal of the draft" is statement that can be made years down the line, but gotta get people to read your stupid article, no?

I have news for people: The entire sports media is built around analyzing what just occurred when anyone half-familiar with sports knows the long-view is the smart view.

You just can't fill column inches and TV time saying "yeah, but wait a few months" over and over.

Forums like this wouldn't exist if that was the default view. We all do the same thing.

Instant analysis, early prediction, small sample size, recent trends assumed to be long ones. Nobody is any less guilty of this.

sure... and when that analysis comes with context and info it can have value. When the only context is bias and the only info is old, cliche and uninteresting than the analysis isnt worth much. Like the Knick section of this article.

There are two kinds of sports fans in the world:

95% of them genuinely believe the media is biased against their team.

5% of them understand that universal dynamic and can't do a thing to convince the 95% that don't.

One doesnt need to make broad general statements here. Just look at cause and effect. The media bias exists with the Knicks because that organization is terible to the media. They are terrible to the local media. They dont leak anything or have any relationships with key media members that will result in press with a positive bias (see Dumars and Woj's relationship).

Predicting a losing record or a move to fail isnt being anti. Anti is when only spout negativity without balance. Anti is when you give an F with nothing to quantify it like a win total. The other guy gave the Knicks a D and predicted I think 37 or 38 wins. That to me is interesting as he gives the offseason grade a D but the win total improves from the prior season by 6-7 wins. Thats something to talk about. Pelton gives nothing for discussion or to back up his grade. Pelton also criticizes a lot of team's moves under the assumption that there was something better out there. Another aspect that yields no discussion.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:Interestingly, the steal of the draft, MVP in fact, for multiple years for summer league was Nate Robinson. Where is he now?
They (ESPN) know damn well that "steal of the draft" is statement that can be made years down the line, but gotta get people to read your stupid article, no?

I have news for people: The entire sports media is built around analyzing what just occurred when anyone half-familiar with sports knows the long-view is the smart view.

You just can't fill column inches and TV time saying "yeah, but wait a few months" over and over.

Forums like this wouldn't exist if that was the default view. We all do the same thing.

Instant analysis, early prediction, small sample size, recent trends assumed to be long ones. Nobody is any less guilty of this.

sure... and when that analysis comes with context and info it can have value. When the only context is bias and the only info is old, cliche and uninteresting than the analysis isnt worth much. Like the Knick section of this article.

There are two kinds of sports fans in the world:

95% of them genuinely believe the media is biased against their team.

5% of them understand that universal dynamic and can't do a thing to convince the 95% that don't.

Thats a cute thing to make up, but clever generalizations have no bearing here.

One doesnt need to make broad general statements here. Just look at cause and effect. The media bias exists with the Knicks because that organization is terible to the media. They are terrible to the local media. They dont leak anything or have any relationships with key media members that will result in press with a positive bias (see Dumars and Woj's relationship).

Predicting a losing record or a move to fail isnt being anti. Anti is when only spout negativity without balance. Anti is when you give an F with nothing to quantify it like a win total. The other guy gave the Knicks a D and predicted I think 37 or 38 wins. That to me is interesting as he gives the offseason grade a D but the win total improves from the prior season by 6-7 wins. Thats something to talk about. Pelton gives nothing for discussion or to back up his grade. Pelton also criticizes a lot of team's moves under the assumption that there was something better out there. Another aspect that yields no discussion.