HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[quote=" the beAnd you have a .

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.</blockquote>

Your arguing against an alternative when what occurred lead to the worst three year runs in Knick history. And people that keep saying we got KP need to realize that don't mean squat if he doesn't stay in 2019 or lead us to a chip.

Here is my point, and maybe it's because I am a season ticket holder. We had a very competitive squad. Best in a long time. Which as a season ticket holder, is all I want. Some on here are just happy to be armchair GM's and watch from afar and hope for that magical unicorn year. They dont have to pay to watch the many scrubs, they wrote about they thought would lead to a chip. Fact is, it takes many years of lucky turns and moves to make a winner. And a superstar player. We were winners in 2012. Phil's ego came in here and thought he had the answer for a 5 year solution. As many before him, he saw how difficult it is. Now, the only guys happy are the ones that think they know what it takes to build a championship and don't have to pay a dime to see their bright ideas fail. I don't want another year of 2001 to 2011 again. Watching a whole bunch of young over achievers get their bitts kicked is not fun. But again, I am the guy at the game paying to watch.

The alternative was already leading to a dead end. Knicks weren't built for sustained long term success and blew their small window of opportunity when they traded for Bargs. Melo was the only piece on that team that was built for a 5 yr run. The only way to keep it alive would be to continually use future assets in order to feed short term results. Meanwhile every core piece would be on the decline and not one player from the core has duplicated the success they had n 2012 over the last 4 yrs. Claiming we could just add upgrades and impact players to play is easy to say a lot harder to execute. Not to mention you completely ignore things like Felton catching a gun charge and his game falling off the face of the earth playing no where near the level that he displayed in 2010 or 2012. Or Tyson Chandler being injury prone and a character issue in the locker room. Its easy to throw out claims of adding impact players while ignoring actual issues that were actually going on with the Knicks.

Worst 3 years in Knicks history would be your opinion, wouldn't make it true though. Claiming KP would have to win a chip is ridiculous. First you claim that all you want as a season ticket holder is to be competitive. But KP would have to win a chip in order to be justified? Seems like a double standard to me.

You being a season ticket holder apparently hasn't given you any extra insight into the Knicks than anyone else on the board. We all follow the Knicks every move, potential moves, rumors of potential moves, rumors of rumors of potential moves, gossip and watch all the games, and dedicate time discussing everything that could possibly be discussed about the Knicks.

Everyone wants the same thing. Knicks to have something in place that sustains winning pushing for shots at the ECC. You believe that the Knick had that with the 54 win team and I don't. I believe the Knicks were due to drop off significantly. Yet lacked many assets to restock due to past trades. Bitting the bullet and not trading any more future assets, and getting their assets back in order, and building a core of players around 24-25 is a better recipie for long term sustained success which fans would be able to enjoy.

Isiah Thomas & Layden both attempted to try and build a sustained playoff team making short sighted move after short sighted move. So that season ticket holders can get their fill of playoffs and first round exits on. Layden turned a finals team into a 30 win team stuck in mediocrity, cap hell, and short on assets. Thinking they were only one player away.

You saying that it was leading to a dead end is a guess at best. You persisting that its true is just ignorant arrogance. Me saying the three years that followed and path we took led to three years of losing and becoming a bigger laughing stock and no where near a team that can compete in the playoffs.. is a fact!

Agree, should have been stated "ONE" of worst three year run in history. Feel better?

No its not ridiculous to say anyone that claims KP, or any other pick, was "worth it" if they go on to leave or do not contribute to a chip. Its just simple logic. I am sure that if Lebron never came back to Cavs the fans would have thought it was all "worth it" to see him win multiple chips somewhere else. If KP leaves in 2019 and he did nothing here, how was that worth it? Smh

And when did I say being a season ticket holder gave me "More insight" to the Knicks. I said that makes me want a better product on the floor and that it was not enjoyable watching a bunch of scrubs "play hard" and get their utts kicked every game. But you keep talkin.

Me persisting its true is based on more data and evidence that leans toward that result then the opposite. Our second best player on that 54 win team Tyson Chandler hasn't been a relevant player in the NBA since his final stint with Dallas (who didn't resign him) in 2014. The same year Melo had to have knee surgery and be shut down after the all star break. Our 3rd best player Jr Smith has never played at the level he did during the 54 win season prior to that season or after that season. There is nothing that suggest that he is capable of playing at that level of play yr in and yr out. We also have no clue what sparked him to play at that level during that season? Was it Jason Kidd? Was it because he was in a contract year? Was it just a collection of things breaking at the right place right time for him? We don't know, but what we do know is that he has been known as an enigma his whole career and that depending on him to play at the level consistently is suicide. Our 4th best player Jason Kidd retired. Our 5th best player Raymond Felton caught his gun charge and has declined drastically since. Also injuring himself in 2014 to only play 29 games that season.

We won 54 games with a defensive player of the year, sixth man of the year, 3rd in MVP, HOF leader in Kidd, and vets like Sheed, KT, Camby in the locker room. That's the level of play and leadership presence needed to get to that 54 win season. So unless all these players were going to maintain THAT level of play over the next few yrs. While leaders like Kidd, Sheed, KT, Camby all were retained or replaced with other leaders. A drop in results is to be expected. Can't have Chandler not playing at defensive player of the year level yet expect the same type of results. Can't have JR Smith not playing at 6th man of the year level but expect the same results.

What data supports that the team would be able to maintain that level of play and contend in the east for the next multiple seasons? They have only one year of data displaying success. In which they held a different roster then the one they followed that season up with? They went on to win 37 games the next season. That was the follow up results to the season. Again more data that leans towards a veteran team with aging players not being able to duplicate the success they had the season prior. You can't pick and choose which results you want to acknowledge.

The team went 5-32 before he moved Jr and Shump for cap space. Melo was headed to the shelf with upcoming knee surgery. Tanking for the #1 pick was practically a no brainier given the real time situation.

Phil should have done a better job in the assets recouped from moving a Tyson and even a Shump & Jr. And even with the cap space he eventually gained. This I can agree with. But the idea of moving on from that core group was not a bad decision. The execution of assets he got back was. As we could have more assets then we have today to have made moves for a better product.

Each situation is different when trying to achieve and or maintain success. Sometimes a team needs to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward when viewing the big picture so that fans can watch a long term successful product. Attempting to win immediately depends on the situation. I don't believe that given the situation that attempting to win with that team that went from 54 wins to 37 wins would have been the best course of action to provide a long term product for the fans to enjoy. I believe it would have been a path that lead to mediocrity.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[quote=" the beAnd you have a .

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.</blockquote>

Your arguing against an alternative when what occurred lead to the worst three year runs in Knick history. And people that keep saying we got KP need to realize that don't mean squat if he doesn't stay in 2019 or lead us to a chip.

Here is my point, and maybe it's because I am a season ticket holder. We had a very competitive squad. Best in a long time. Which as a season ticket holder, is all I want. Some on here are just happy to be armchair GM's and watch from afar and hope for that magical unicorn year. They dont have to pay to watch the many scrubs, they wrote about they thought would lead to a chip. Fact is, it takes many years of lucky turns and moves to make a winner. And a superstar player. We were winners in 2012. Phil's ego came in here and thought he had the answer for a 5 year solution. As many before him, he saw how difficult it is. Now, the only guys happy are the ones that think they know what it takes to build a championship and don't have to pay a dime to see their bright ideas fail. I don't want another year of 2001 to 2011 again. Watching a whole bunch of young over achievers get their bitts kicked is not fun. But again, I am the guy at the game paying to watch.

The alternative was already leading to a dead end. Knicks weren't built for sustained long term success and blew their small window of opportunity when they traded for Bargs. Melo was the only piece on that team that was built for a 5 yr run. The only way to keep it alive would be to continually use future assets in order to feed short term results. Meanwhile every core piece would be on the decline and not one player from the core has duplicated the success they had n 2012 over the last 4 yrs. Claiming we could just add upgrades and impact players to play is easy to say a lot harder to execute. Not to mention you completely ignore things like Felton catching a gun charge and his game falling off the face of the earth playing no where near the level that he displayed in 2010 or 2012. Or Tyson Chandler being injury prone and a character issue in the locker room. Its easy to throw out claims of adding impact players while ignoring actual issues that were actually going on with the Knicks.

Worst 3 years in Knicks history would be your opinion, wouldn't make it true though. Claiming KP would have to win a chip is ridiculous. First you claim that all you want as a season ticket holder is to be competitive. But KP would have to win a chip in order to be justified? Seems like a double standard to me.

You being a season ticket holder apparently hasn't given you any extra insight into the Knicks than anyone else on the board. We all follow the Knicks every move, potential moves, rumors of potential moves, rumors of rumors of potential moves, gossip and watch all the games, and dedicate time discussing everything that could possibly be discussed about the Knicks.

Everyone wants the same thing. Knicks to have something in place that sustains winning pushing for shots at the ECC. You believe that the Knick had that with the 54 win team and I don't. I believe the Knicks were due to drop off significantly. Yet lacked many assets to restock due to past trades. Bitting the bullet and not trading any more future assets, and getting their assets back in order, and building a core of players around 24-25 is a better recipie for long term sustained success which fans would be able to enjoy.

Isiah Thomas & Layden both attempted to try and build a sustained playoff team making short sighted move after short sighted move. So that season ticket holders can get their fill of playoffs and first round exits on. Layden turned a finals team into a 30 win team stuck in mediocrity, cap hell, and short on assets. Thinking they were only one player away.

You saying that it was leading to a dead end is a guess at best. You persisting that its true is just ignorant arrogance. Me saying the three years that followed and path we took led to three years of losing and becoming a bigger laughing stock and no where near a team that can compete in the playoffs.. is a fact!

Agree, should have been stated "ONE" of worst three year run in history. Feel better?

No its not ridiculous to say anyone that claims KP, or any other pick, was "worth it" if they go on to leave or do not contribute to a chip. Its just simple logic. I am sure that if Lebron never came back to Cavs the fans would have thought it was all "worth it" to see him win multiple chips somewhere else. If KP leaves in 2019 and he did nothing here, how was that worth it? Smh

And when did I say being a season ticket holder gave me "More insight" to the Knicks. I said that makes me want a better product on the floor and that it was not enjoyable watching a bunch of scrubs "play hard" and get their utts kicked every game. But you keep talkin.

Me persisting its true is based on more data and evidence that leans toward that result then the opposite. Our second best player on that 54 win team Tyson Chandler hasn't been a relevant player in the NBA since his final stint with Dallas (who didn't resign him) in 2014. The same year Melo had to have knee surgery and be shut down after the all star break. Our 3rd best player Jr Smith has never played at the level he did during the 54 win season prior to that season or after that season. There is nothing that suggest that he is capable of playing at that level of play yr in and yr out. We also have no clue what sparked him to play at that level during that season? Was it Jason Kidd? Was it because he was in a contract year? Was it just a collection of things breaking at the right place right time for him? We don't know, but what we do know is that he has been known as an enigma his whole career and that depending on him to play at the level consistently is suicide. Our 4th best player Jason Kidd retired. Our 5th best player Raymond Felton caught his gun charge and has declined drastically since. Also injuring himself in 2014 to only play 29 games that season.

We won 54 games with a defensive player of the year, sixth man of the year, 3rd in MVP, HOF leader in Kidd, and vets like Sheed, KT, Camby in the locker room. That's the level of play and leadership presence needed to get to that 54 win season. So unless all these players were going to maintain THAT level of play over the next few yrs. While leaders like Kidd, Sheed, KT, Camby all were retained or replaced with other leaders. A drop in results is to be expected. Can't have Chandler not playing at defensive player of the year level yet expect the same type of results. Can't have JR Smith not playing at 6th man of the year level but expect the same results.

What data supports that the team would be able to maintain that level of play and contend in the east for the next multiple seasons? They have only one year of data displaying success. In which they held a different roster then the one they followed that season up with? They went on to win 37 games the next season. That was the follow up results to the season. Again more data that leans towards a veteran team with aging players not being able to duplicate the success they had the season prior. You can't pick and choose which results you want to acknowledge.

The team went 5-32 before he moved Jr and Shump for cap space. Melo was headed to the shelf with upcoming knee surgery. Tanking for the #1 pick was practically a no brainier given the real time situation.

Phil should have done a better job in the assets recouped from moving a Tyson and even a Shump & Jr. And even with the cap space he eventually gained. This I can agree with. But the idea of moving on from that core group was not a bad decision. The execution of assets he got back was. As we could have more assets then we have today to have made moves for a better product.

Each situation is different when trying to achieve and or maintain success. Sometimes a team needs to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward when viewing the big picture so that fans can watch a long term successful product. Attempting to win immediately depends on the situation. I don't believe that given the situation that attempting to win with that team that went from 54 wins to 37 wins would have been the best course of action to provide a long term product for the fans to enjoy. I believe it would have been a path that lead to mediocrity.

Like how you left out some details with quote above. Where was Tyson? Who did we add? What did Phil get for Shump and Smith?

But yet again.....You just spent all that time "Persisting" you know what would have happened. FICTION! Ill stick to stating once again, "What Happened" we sucked and became a bigger laughing stock. FACT! We will agree to disagree that Fiction vs Fact is no argument.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

TheGame wrote:I thought the team would make the playoffs last year and we are essentially the same. I think Phil and the triangle was a big factor in the losses. I can see the team making the playoffs with Melo. We might as well try to make the playoffs (as long as we still give minutes to the young guys).

What was the problem the year after they win 52 Games? Mentioning 40 year old Kidd? Yeah ok... damn sure wasn't the triangle.

No it was mills not signing a back up for Tyson chandler (signed JR smith loser brother) Jr just coming of major surgery, Amare missing time, and we had no pg, think we had tony "back peddling" douglas.

Losing Kidd was huge. Not because of his ability at 40 but his BB IQ at point guard. Add Shump shooting 37%. Felton at 39%. Smith having a bad year off his 6th man year. Walking cripples like STAT, Martin and everyone's favorite Barg****innani! And Tyson having health issues.

Think the smart move would have been to come in and take 54 win core and add healthy athletic pieces around them. Not scrap for three years of do overs.

I'd say the best move would have been sell high. That was clearly a core group of guys that had peaked. We could have gotten a ton of picks and young players for the #3 MVP candidate, the DPOY, and our role players coming off strong seasons.

the only reason you wouldn't be fired immediately for that is no owner would let you in the first place.

Well, I wouldn't work for an owner who wanted to build a team around Melo. So this discussion is going nowhere. Plenty of teams have had decent seasons and then sold high though. It's not like the team just won the championship.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:[quote=" the beAnd you have a .

So Lopez, Affalo, D.Williams, KP, Willy, Calderon, Grant replaced Tyson, JR, Shump, Amare, Bargs, Felton, Hardaway Jr. So the tanking landed KP to add that impact player. While the cap space still landed enough talent to replicate the pieces lost.

Phil then gambled on Rose and Noah and lost.</blockquote>

Your arguing against an alternative when what occurred lead to the worst three year runs in Knick history. And people that keep saying we got KP need to realize that don't mean squat if he doesn't stay in 2019 or lead us to a chip.

Here is my point, and maybe it's because I am a season ticket holder. We had a very competitive squad. Best in a long time. Which as a season ticket holder, is all I want. Some on here are just happy to be armchair GM's and watch from afar and hope for that magical unicorn year. They dont have to pay to watch the many scrubs, they wrote about they thought would lead to a chip. Fact is, it takes many years of lucky turns and moves to make a winner. And a superstar player. We were winners in 2012. Phil's ego came in here and thought he had the answer for a 5 year solution. As many before him, he saw how difficult it is. Now, the only guys happy are the ones that think they know what it takes to build a championship and don't have to pay a dime to see their bright ideas fail. I don't want another year of 2001 to 2011 again. Watching a whole bunch of young over achievers get their bitts kicked is not fun. But again, I am the guy at the game paying to watch.

The alternative was already leading to a dead end. Knicks weren't built for sustained long term success and blew their small window of opportunity when they traded for Bargs. Melo was the only piece on that team that was built for a 5 yr run. The only way to keep it alive would be to continually use future assets in order to feed short term results. Meanwhile every core piece would be on the decline and not one player from the core has duplicated the success they had n 2012 over the last 4 yrs. Claiming we could just add upgrades and impact players to play is easy to say a lot harder to execute. Not to mention you completely ignore things like Felton catching a gun charge and his game falling off the face of the earth playing no where near the level that he displayed in 2010 or 2012. Or Tyson Chandler being injury prone and a character issue in the locker room. Its easy to throw out claims of adding impact players while ignoring actual issues that were actually going on with the Knicks.

Worst 3 years in Knicks history would be your opinion, wouldn't make it true though. Claiming KP would have to win a chip is ridiculous. First you claim that all you want as a season ticket holder is to be competitive. But KP would have to win a chip in order to be justified? Seems like a double standard to me.

You being a season ticket holder apparently hasn't given you any extra insight into the Knicks than anyone else on the board. We all follow the Knicks every move, potential moves, rumors of potential moves, rumors of rumors of potential moves, gossip and watch all the games, and dedicate time discussing everything that could possibly be discussed about the Knicks.

Everyone wants the same thing. Knicks to have something in place that sustains winning pushing for shots at the ECC. You believe that the Knick had that with the 54 win team and I don't. I believe the Knicks were due to drop off significantly. Yet lacked many assets to restock due to past trades. Bitting the bullet and not trading any more future assets, and getting their assets back in order, and building a core of players around 24-25 is a better recipie for long term sustained success which fans would be able to enjoy.

Isiah Thomas & Layden both attempted to try and build a sustained playoff team making short sighted move after short sighted move. So that season ticket holders can get their fill of playoffs and first round exits on. Layden turned a finals team into a 30 win team stuck in mediocrity, cap hell, and short on assets. Thinking they were only one player away.

You saying that it was leading to a dead end is a guess at best. You persisting that its true is just ignorant arrogance. Me saying the three years that followed and path we took led to three years of losing and becoming a bigger laughing stock and no where near a team that can compete in the playoffs.. is a fact!

Agree, should have been stated "ONE" of worst three year run in history. Feel better?

No its not ridiculous to say anyone that claims KP, or any other pick, was "worth it" if they go on to leave or do not contribute to a chip. Its just simple logic. I am sure that if Lebron never came back to Cavs the fans would have thought it was all "worth it" to see him win multiple chips somewhere else. If KP leaves in 2019 and he did nothing here, how was that worth it? Smh

And when did I say being a season ticket holder gave me "More insight" to the Knicks. I said that makes me want a better product on the floor and that it was not enjoyable watching a bunch of scrubs "play hard" and get their utts kicked every game. But you keep talkin.

Me persisting its true is based on more data and evidence that leans toward that result then the opposite. Our second best player on that 54 win team Tyson Chandler hasn't been a relevant player in the NBA since his final stint with Dallas (who didn't resign him) in 2014. The same year Melo had to have knee surgery and be shut down after the all star break. Our 3rd best player Jr Smith has never played at the level he did during the 54 win season prior to that season or after that season. There is nothing that suggest that he is capable of playing at that level of play yr in and yr out. We also have no clue what sparked him to play at that level during that season? Was it Jason Kidd? Was it because he was in a contract year? Was it just a collection of things breaking at the right place right time for him? We don't know, but what we do know is that he has been known as an enigma his whole career and that depending on him to play at the level consistently is suicide. Our 4th best player Jason Kidd retired. Our 5th best player Raymond Felton caught his gun charge and has declined drastically since. Also injuring himself in 2014 to only play 29 games that season.

We won 54 games with a defensive player of the year, sixth man of the year, 3rd in MVP, HOF leader in Kidd, and vets like Sheed, KT, Camby in the locker room. That's the level of play and leadership presence needed to get to that 54 win season. So unless all these players were going to maintain THAT level of play over the next few yrs. While leaders like Kidd, Sheed, KT, Camby all were retained or replaced with other leaders. A drop in results is to be expected. Can't have Chandler not playing at defensive player of the year level yet expect the same type of results. Can't have JR Smith not playing at 6th man of the year level but expect the same results.

What data supports that the team would be able to maintain that level of play and contend in the east for the next multiple seasons? They have only one year of data displaying success. In which they held a different roster then the one they followed that season up with? They went on to win 37 games the next season. That was the follow up results to the season. Again more data that leans towards a veteran team with aging players not being able to duplicate the success they had the season prior. You can't pick and choose which results you want to acknowledge.

The team went 5-32 before he moved Jr and Shump for cap space. Melo was headed to the shelf with upcoming knee surgery. Tanking for the #1 pick was practically a no brainier given the real time situation.

Phil should have done a better job in the assets recouped from moving a Tyson and even a Shump & Jr. And even with the cap space he eventually gained. This I can agree with. But the idea of moving on from that core group was not a bad decision. The execution of assets he got back was. As we could have more assets then we have today to have made moves for a better product.

Each situation is different when trying to achieve and or maintain success. Sometimes a team needs to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward when viewing the big picture so that fans can watch a long term successful product. Attempting to win immediately depends on the situation. I don't believe that given the situation that attempting to win with that team that went from 54 wins to 37 wins would have been the best course of action to provide a long term product for the fans to enjoy. I believe it would have been a path that lead to mediocrity.

Like how you left out some details with quote above. Where was Tyson? Who did we add? What did Phil get for Shump and Smith?

But yet again.....You just spent all that time "Persisting" you know what would have happened. FICTION! Ill stick to stating once again, "What Happened" we sucked and became a bigger laughing stock. FACT! We will agree to disagree that Fiction vs Fact is no argument.

Tyson and Felton were traded for Calderon and Dalembert we all know this. He signed Jason Smith and Langston Galloway. Its the only impact moves the Phil made to the core of players going into the season. Fired Woodson and hired Fisher. Attempted to install the triangle. We still had Melo, Jr Smith, Shumpert, Amare, Bargnani, Pablo, and Hardaway jr. from the season prior. Melo was dealing with his knee injury throughout the season which limited him as a player that season. Even if you believe the Tyson trade was a poor move (which I already touched on it being a poor move multiple times). The real time situation was the team was 5-32, Melo was going to shut down the season due to his knee injury. Tanking for the #1 pick was the only logical choice given the real time situation. Jr and Shump were traded for Lance Thomas and 2 future 2nd round picks. And then replaced with Arron Affalo and Derek Williams in the off season with cap space. Against popular opinion Phil didn't come an and tear the roster completely down immediately. He swapped Felton with Calderon and Tyson with Dalembert and kept the remaining roster intact.

Regardless if you agree with my viewpoint. I have at least provided reasoning for why I believe the things I do. You have not provided any real data or reasoning to support why you feel that the 54 win team would be able to maintain success. You have purposely ignored doing so which is telling.

You know something that is as clear as DAY.

Every move phil made weather firing, trading, promoting, hiring, acquiring, ALL BASE AROUND THE TRIANGLE. Can you truly evaluate anyone working under those conditions. Especially when the leash was as short as a five game losing streak