Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value. I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset, especially when considering that drafting players is the only thing we do that is above average.

Besides, this move is more than just the pick. It is also about cap management, which the Knicks have been poor out. In our situation, we should have done our best to maintain cap flexibility movinv forward until our core was drafted and we could transition into being a sustainable winner.

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

You should be the GM, I would of been behind this. I know I'm a curmudgeon on here but I am so frustrated with the Knicks. I don't see anyway we get back to the competitive ball we played in the 90's. They keep making short sighted move after short sighted move. The chances of us even building a core around Porzingis may have already passed us by. Basically we need to luck into the top 2 pick next year or we might as well pack it in for the next decade. Its one of the reasons I wanted to move Porzingis I saw a chance to build a core of 5 or 6 lottery picks plus Willy before anyone became a FA. We could of been a legit contender in 2 or 3 years. I think we missed our chance at building a champion but we still may be able to build a perennial playoff team

Jmpasq wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

You should be the GM, I would of been behind this. I know I'm a curmudgeon on here but I am so frustrated with the Knicks. I don't see anyway we get back to the competitive ball we played in the 90's. They keep making short sighted move after short sighted move. The chances of us even building a core around Porzingis may have already passed us by. Basically we need to luck into the top 2 pick next year or we might as well pack it in for the next decade. Its one of the reasons I wanted to move Porzingis I saw a chance to build a core of 5 or 6 lottery picks plus Willy before anyone became a FA. We could of been a legit contender in 2 or 3 years. I think we missed our chance at building a champion but we still may be able to build a perennial playoff team

Can you be considered a curmudgeon when the source of your negative emotions is legitimately frustrating? The Knicks have done the same dumb **** from executive to executive for nearly two decades, yet never learn. Everything I've learned about the league has come from studying the Knicks and learning what not to do. And this Hardaway signing feels no different. Who else was even offering Hardaway nearly as much to justify giving him such a hefty deal?

And to think we've finally managed to find a legitimate franchise caliber talent via the draft, ass backwaredly, but are still making the same inane moves that might chase him away. I just hope we can draft another all-star to pair with Porzingis. That would help mitigate these piss poor signings and offer a fast track toward becoming a perennial playoff team. But if we managed our cap better, those two ingredients could produce a contender, since a third all-star would be inclined to sign with us outright.

But given the unlikelihood of us finding that second star and KP's fragility, I was open to trading him to BOS for the no.1 overall pick, assets and then flipping that pick to the Sixers for what Boston got. Like you said, it would've given us a phletora of premium chips to build this team with that is near idiot-proof.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

I'm OK with the Hardaway signing but long-term, I think what you're describing would have been better.

I don't mind the length of Hardaway's contract; he's young and fits KP's timeline. What makes me concerned is a skillset that limits his ability to be anything more than a role player and unable to justify the cost of that contract.

I don't think that's more than what a solid starter who is below all-star level will cost now. It's pretty hard (not impossible) to sign FAs to bargain contracts. The main way to get bargain contracts is have guys on rookie deals. I think if the Knicks sign FAs to approximately what their production is worth and can get more draft picks than the average team (trading Melo, hopefully Lee, and hopefully buying picks), that's a decent starting point. Obviously a deal like the Carroll deal would also have fit what I'm describing since they'd be getting picks. The real issue here is whether the added value Timmy gives over Carroll is more than the value you could expect from 2 picks (picks around 25 and 40 perhaps) and having cap space 2 years sooner if you don't want to keep the players. It's a close call.

Andrew wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is with a max offer to Porzings starting at 27.5 and Hardways deal at 19 in 2019 the Knicks are now at 88 million for 2019. This means even if a max player decided he wanted to come with a rising star in Porzingis the Knicks are capped out. I don't think everyone here is fully grasping how much this contracts hurts the future of the franchise. The Knicks need to shed Lee and Lance Thomas right now. That at least mitigates Hardaway

KPs cap hold for 2019 is $7.5M. You sign him after you get a FA to sign, and can then exceed the cap.

With that in mind please restate your argument.

Jmpasq who's the FA target you would look to add?

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value.

That's fine, but if you're going to cite value, you define value.

I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset,

Your belief is beside the point. Again, anyone versed in draft value will tell you a 20th pick is significantly closer to a 2nd round pick than a 10th.

Again, 30 is because there are 30 teams, NOT because there is some objective line of significant quality between 30 and 31.

I don't think some people get that, i think they hear "1st round" and get giddy.

More accurately there are picks 1-60, with progression of quality/value much more specific and nuanced than 1-30 and 31-60. There are many more "rounds" of projected quality than 2.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value.

That's fine, but if you're going to cite value, you define value.

I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset,

Your belief is beside the point. Again, anyone versed in draft value will tell you a 20th pick is significantly closer to a 2nd round pick than a 10th.

Again, 30 is because there are 30 teams, NOT because there is some objective line of significant quality between 30 and 31.

I don't think some people get that, i think they hear "1st round" and get giddy.

More accurately there are picks 1-60, with progression of quality/value much more specific and nuanced than 1-30 and 31-60. There are many more "rounds" of projected quality than 2.

You're getting a chance at a better player locked into a 4 year deal with pick 20 than a 2nd round pick.

The convenience, the potential value of that doesn't alter the historical odds. We know how often a 20th pick breaks out into a star, rotation player, etc.

You're citing lottery rationalization. 'Well, there's a "chance"!'

Yes, there is, and we know its odds.

Andrew wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is with a max offer to Porzings starting at 27.5 and Hardways deal at 19 in 2019 the Knicks are now at 88 million for 2019. This means even if a max player decided he wanted to come with a rising star in Porzingis the Knicks are capped out. I don't think everyone here is fully grasping how much this contracts hurts the future of the franchise. The Knicks need to shed Lee and Lance Thomas right now. That at least mitigates Hardaway

KPs cap hold for 2019 is $7.5M. You sign him after you get a FA to sign, and can then exceed the cap.

With that in mind please restate your argument.

Lance also has a TO that year. Noah would be in the final year of his contract and could be stretched if need be. Lee is very movable for a contract a year shorter.

Edit didn't know Knickoftime said all these exact things already.