blkexec wrote:And I thought this thread was about GS putting the hammer on LBJ.

Great dialogue on current racial issues and a system built on systematic oppression. Denial, shame and guilt is part of the reason why we still have racial tension. It's like watching brothers and sisters fighting with each other because they look different. History and the bible clearly states we all come from the same source. But history also tells us this country and others was built on greed and evil.

We cannot deny the natural tendencies of human mind and human societies.
They function as any other low of nature.
All we can do is understand them and use this knowledge to slowly make the wold better place.
Sail ship cannot fight the wind - it has to use it in masterful way to rich his destination.
When we try to bend the lows of nature, human brain, or human societies all we do is wasting time, energy, and human lives for nothing.
And after all revolutions, massacres, wars, genocide, and violence we use to bend the reality, majority of human race still cannot see what they are doing.

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I think the problem with racism is America is that it has evolved into something both subtle and systemic. Everytime someone beings up racism you get threads like this. I actually agree with Briggs that most wow people are not racist. I also agree with papabear that racism is structural.

The impact being felt today doesn't require individual acts of racial hatred to manifest itself. It happens because it has been set up over 100s of years into a system that perpetuated racism. It's subtle because the victims can't point at any person for being racist is often couched in politically correct horse****. In most cases the Sturm is rigged by design and defended by politicians. When multiple people look the other way someone somewhere is still being victimized by racism.

But looking at the data is hard to argue that racism is still very much a problem. I work for a fortune 500 mfg. company in tbe rust belt. Like most companies it has policies against discrimination bared on race and gender, the people on average are friendly and helpful. I have formed many good friendships over the years for which I am grateful. The demographics of this place is at least 35-40% non white. Yet when I look at the leadership of our company it 90% white (Director and above). This didn't happen by accident. There is a carefully preserved system in place that allows this to happen. People of color don't get promoted, they are given vague reasons like you don't have the required soft skills or leadership qualities. Then only white people get selected to participate in their "leadership development programs". Are the people making the choices racist? Hard to say. But clearly there is no accountability if they chose to be racist because the system is rigged. Even well intentioned and we'll meaning white people are either unaware of this or they look the other way because they are too scared to open their mouth in a company where doing so may adversely impact their position in the food chain. The whole things happens in the background, you can never point to any one person or act as being racist, yet the numbers speak for themselves.

Thats fair. Look i understand that unfortunetly some people are racist BUT that doesnt mean its the 1960s again. Those days are long gone and nowadays people from many races are very successful...its just a fact

You have to understand the past in order to understand the present and the future. Nobody said it was the 60s again. There have been many generations of ppl dating from as early as the 90s who have been prevented from success due to unfair sentencing laws. Due to drugs that were introduced and flooded into communities by non AAs from the 70s. Due to Ghettos that were created by redlining which was installed by non AAs from the 30s-60s. Because many people of different races have been very successful doesn't eliminate these issues. These generations of the 90s would be the 30-40 yr olds of today. Just like generations of people from the past prior to that if treated with equality who knows what their future and their kids futures and their kids futures would be today. Ghettos are still prevalent today so the decision to redline from the 30s-60s still having its lasting effects and who knows how many futures it has destroyed. Drugs are still prevalent today so the decisions to import drugs into these communities are still prevalent today and who knows how many futures it has destroyed. Mass incarceration and the lasting effects of throwing people in jail on the war on drugs that non black supplied breaking up families is still in effect. Down playing these issues because people have been very successful in America isn't fixing these issues and can't undo the damage that has been done to many generations of people.

Agree. What we are arguing is that racism has changed in form and how it is being applied. While the rank file of white American office worker is not racist or discriminatory towards non whites the non whites are still barred from an equal share of success by the overall system that is heavily favoring whites. The lack of diversity at the top of these companies still shows how much of a barrier still exists. But tbe fact that most people are no longer racist at an individual level is definitely a good thing and indicative of progress. Thats the larger overall tend driven by education.

And then there are still some fringe elements that are throwbacks to the Jim Crow era and are racist. And they have gained a voice during the last year or so. You can't deny that white supremacist movements and parades are on the rise. This is the more disturbing smaller trend driven by people who shun education because colleges are "liberal and full of left wing ideology and science is propaganda created by the left".

Agreed. Which is a lot easier to get away with with the negative image and narrative of African Americans that has been built up over the years. Due to many of the issues outlined in this thread.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Do people realize what the Nation Anthem even is? Its about a man who saw our flag stand through battle where Americans were able to protect this homeland. Exactly what would someone get out of protesting that song? If it wasnt for those people--you or I would not be here.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

http://www.theroot.com/star-spangled-bigotry-the-hidden-racist-history-of-the-1790855893

I suppose this is the part where you dismiss this unsung portion of the Star Spangled Banner as not being an issue and not a demonstration of how adverserial race relations have always been in this country.

Nard dog--if you are African American--can you tell me of ONE documented case of a white person holding you back from success? Did a white person make you get on the back of a bus or not serve you food? Did a white person say you cant go to this college because your black? Or you cant have this job because your black?

In Junior High School, I was effectively tied with a student for the second best grades in our graduating class. The seperation between us was a fraction of a point, which was to her advantage. She won salutatorian; I got dick.

Interestingly enough, the year before two students with the same grades won the distinction; both were of Ukranian/Eastern European decent. The seperation between their averages was 1.3. I know because I was a part of the color guard for their graduation, which were reserved for honor students.

I've got more damaging examples but this was the quickest to outline.

So you were held back in life because you lost first place in your class by % points? Man what the F are you talking about Nardog-Jees cry me a river. Dont compare your self to those who were truly oppressed. Like Isaid--I dont think Colin K knows what the F hes protesting and neither do you.

agreed. Obviously he dislikes whites but his views on every african american being held down seem far fetched and silly

I don't dislike Whites. I dislike Whites like you that pretend to be something you're not.

pretend to be something im not? Such as what?

The fact that you feel you are entitled to "inform" the overwhelming majority of 48 million Black Americans and similar significant portion of Hispanic Americans about their life....and not see how that thinking in itself is proof of racism. The **** would you know about what I or anyone like me deals with? Because you have know a Black guy that you think is your friend?

first off i dont feel entitled to anything. You do seem to have a lot of anger which isnt good dude. Im not trying to convince you or put ideas in your head but at the same time i dont feel its right to blame whites for everything

Right. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just angry as a Black man. An "angry Black man", I guess. And you are just an impartial juror and is someone genuinely concerned with race issues and how to fix them.

well i do have a job and family so they take up most of my time

Somebody hand this guy a medal. He managed to get a job and knock somebody up. What a tremendous accomplishment.

yeah real nice thing to say. Obviously you know im white so thats why you are being "nice" to me i guess

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Do people realize what the Nation Anthem even is? Its about a man who saw our flag stand through battle where Americans were able to protect this homeland. Exactly what would someone get out of protesting that song? If it wasnt for those people--you or I would not be here.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

http://www.theroot.com/star-spangled-bigotry-the-hidden-racist-history-of-the-1790855893

I suppose this is the part where you dismiss this unsung portion of the Star Spangled Banner as not being an issue and not a demonstration of how adverserial race relations have always been in this country.

Nard dog--if you are African American--can you tell me of ONE documented case of a white person holding you back from success? Did a white person make you get on the back of a bus or not serve you food? Did a white person say you cant go to this college because your black? Or you cant have this job because your black?

In Junior High School, I was effectively tied with a student for the second best grades in our graduating class. The seperation between us was a fraction of a point, which was to her advantage. She won salutatorian; I got dick.

Interestingly enough, the year before two students with the same grades won the distinction; both were of Ukranian/Eastern European decent. The seperation between their averages was 1.3. I know because I was a part of the color guard for their graduation, which were reserved for honor students.

I've got more damaging examples but this was the quickest to outline.

So you were held back in life because you lost first place in your class by % points? Man what the F are you talking about Nardog-Jees cry me a river. Dont compare your self to those who were truly oppressed. Like Isaid--I dont think Colin K knows what the F hes protesting and neither do you.

agreed. Obviously he dislikes whites but his views on every african american being held down seem far fetched and silly

I don't dislike Whites. I dislike Whites like you that pretend to be something you're not.

pretend to be something im not? Such as what?

The fact that you feel you are entitled to "inform" the overwhelming majority of 48 million Black Americans and similar significant portion of Hispanic Americans about their life....and not see how that thinking in itself is proof of racism. The **** would you know about what I or anyone like me deals with? Because you have know a Black guy that you think is your friend?

first off i dont feel entitled to anything. You do seem to have a lot of anger which isnt good dude. Im not trying to convince you or put ideas in your head but at the same time i dont feel its right to blame whites for everything

Right. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just angry as a Black man. An "angry Black man", I guess. And you are just an impartial juror and is someone genuinely concerned with race issues and how to fix them.

well i do have a job and family so they take up most of my time

Somebody hand this guy a medal. He managed to get a job and knock somebody up. What a tremendous accomplishment.

yeah real nice thing to say. Obviously you know im white so thats why you are being "nice" to me i guess

I was actually channeling my inner smug prick. Guess you didn't pick up on it.

Oh I did. I just don't see a reason why you have to be disrespectful. Different Opinions are fine but keep it civil

To be frank, I tend to have a lower and lower tolerance for B.S. as I age. And I feel there is a lot of it being dispensed on one side of this discussion.

newyorknewyork wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I think the problem with racism is America is that it has evolved into something both subtle and systemic. Everytime someone beings up racism you get threads like this. I actually agree with Briggs that most wow people are not racist. I also agree with papabear that racism is structural.

The impact being felt today doesn't require individual acts of racial hatred to manifest itself. It happens because it has been set up over 100s of years into a system that perpetuated racism. It's subtle because the victims can't point at any person for being racist is often couched in politically correct horse****. In most cases the Sturm is rigged by design and defended by politicians. When multiple people look the other way someone somewhere is still being victimized by racism.

But looking at the data is hard to argue that racism is still very much a problem. I work for a fortune 500 mfg. company in tbe rust belt. Like most companies it has policies against discrimination bared on race and gender, the people on average are friendly and helpful. I have formed many good friendships over the years for which I am grateful. The demographics of this place is at least 35-40% non white. Yet when I look at the leadership of our company it 90% white (Director and above). This didn't happen by accident. There is a carefully preserved system in place that allows this to happen. People of color don't get promoted, they are given vague reasons like you don't have the required soft skills or leadership qualities. Then only white people get selected to participate in their "leadership development programs". Are the people making the choices racist? Hard to say. But clearly there is no accountability if they chose to be racist because the system is rigged. Even well intentioned and we'll meaning white people are either unaware of this or they look the other way because they are too scared to open their mouth in a company where doing so may adversely impact their position in the food chain. The whole things happens in the background, you can never point to any one person or act as being racist, yet the numbers speak for themselves.

Thats fair. Look i understand that unfortunetly some people are racist BUT that doesnt mean its the 1960s again. Those days are long gone and nowadays people from many races are very successful...its just a fact

You have to understand the past in order to understand the present and the future. Nobody said it was the 60s again. There have been many generations of ppl dating from as early as the 90s who have been prevented from success due to unfair sentencing laws. Due to drugs that were introduced and flooded into communities by non AAs from the 70s. Due to Ghettos that were created by redlining which was installed by non AAs from the 30s-60s. Because many people of different races have been very successful doesn't eliminate these issues. These generations of the 90s would be the 30-40 yr olds of today. Just like generations of people from the past prior to that if treated with equality who knows what their future and their kids futures and their kids futures would be today. Ghettos are still prevalent today so the decision to redline from the 30s-60s still having its lasting effects and who knows how many futures it has destroyed. Drugs are still prevalent today so the decisions to import drugs into these communities are still prevalent today and who knows how many futures it has destroyed. Mass incarceration and the lasting effects of throwing people in jail on the war on drugs that non black supplied breaking up families is still in effect. Down playing these issues because people have been very successful in America isn't fixing these issues and can't undo the damage that has been done to many generations of people.

Influx of drugs by non AA's in the 70s?

Democratic policies. Rigging of system for political and financial gain. Simply put "The Swamp"

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Do people realize what the Nation Anthem even is? Its about a man who saw our flag stand through battle where Americans were able to protect this homeland. Exactly what would someone get out of protesting that song? If it wasnt for those people--you or I would not be here.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

http://www.theroot.com/star-spangled-bigotry-the-hidden-racist-history-of-the-1790855893

I suppose this is the part where you dismiss this unsung portion of the Star Spangled Banner as not being an issue and not a demonstration of how adverserial race relations have always been in this country.

Nard dog--if you are African American--can you tell me of ONE documented case of a white person holding you back from success? Did a white person make you get on the back of a bus or not serve you food? Did a white person say you cant go to this college because your black? Or you cant have this job because your black?

In Junior High School, I was effectively tied with a student for the second best grades in our graduating class. The seperation between us was a fraction of a point, which was to her advantage. She won salutatorian; I got dick.

Interestingly enough, the year before two students with the same grades won the distinction; both were of Ukranian/Eastern European decent. The seperation between their averages was 1.3. I know because I was a part of the color guard for their graduation, which were reserved for honor students.

I've got more damaging examples but this was the quickest to outline.

So you were held back in life because you lost first place in your class by % points? Man what the F are you talking about Nardog-Jees cry me a river. Dont compare your self to those who were truly oppressed. Like Isaid--I dont think Colin K knows what the F hes protesting and neither do you.

agreed. Obviously he dislikes whites but his views on every african american being held down seem far fetched and silly

I don't dislike Whites. I dislike Whites like you that pretend to be something you're not.

pretend to be something im not? Such as what?

The fact that you feel you are entitled to "inform" the overwhelming majority of 48 million Black Americans and similar significant portion of Hispanic Americans about their life....and not see how that thinking in itself is proof of racism. The **** would you know about what I or anyone like me deals with? Because you have know a Black guy that you think is your friend?

first off i dont feel entitled to anything. You do seem to have a lot of anger which isnt good dude. Im not trying to convince you or put ideas in your head but at the same time i dont feel its right to blame whites for everything

Right. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just angry as a Black man. An "angry Black man", I guess. And you are just an impartial juror and is someone genuinely concerned with race issues and how to fix them.

well i do have a job and family so they take up most of my time

Somebody hand this guy a medal. He managed to get a job and knock somebody up. What a tremendous accomplishment.

yeah real nice thing to say. Obviously you know im white so thats why you are being "nice" to me i guess

I was actually channeling my inner smug prick. Guess you didn't pick up on it.

Oh I did. I just don't see a reason why you have to be disrespectful. Different Opinions are fine but keep it civil

To be frank, I tend to have a lower and lower tolerance for B.S. as I age. And I feel there is a lot of it being dispensed on one side of this discussion.

Was just thinking the same myself

gunsnewing wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:It's a fact that the oppressors always think it's not as bad as the oppressed think. To all my brethren who believe it's not as bad need to come live in the south for a few months.

I don't think it's the 1960s down here, but it's definitely not 2017.

And if I can experience and be disgusted by white coworkers getting preferential treatment at work Because I'm not white, I can only imagine what the black population at my job goes through.

It's obvious that they routinely get the shorter end of the stick compared to other races.

Let's not talk about exceptions please.

When we see the private sector flush with non-white CEOs, then I'll believe that the opportunity is pretty much the same.

You might be right. It might be worse than the oppressors think but the bottom line is all peoples can pull together and do a better for themselves. Everyone should ask themselves what can I/we do better for our selves and our peoples.

This is the point Briggs, Akrud and others are trying to make I believe. Asians, Muslims, Jews you name it face bigger hurdles than present day African Americas. They weren't fortunate to be born on the shinny house on the Hill that is the USA. Majority don't speak the language, huge hurdles that prevents many from improving their families quality of life ever. However, they pull through for themselves and their families. They may not be afforded all the senior positions in their companies either but they don't hold press conferences that essentially chalk up their misfortunes to to systemic anything nor do they ever in any way blame other races. If some of them do it is never the first thing that crosses their mind.

This post to summarize basically is saying that whites shouldnt be held accountable for their decisions/actions. To be honest.

It also voices the false narrative that blacks havent put in the work and have only sat back and complained. So please tell me why during segregation. When blacks were the poorest and least educated. Had to depend on themselves, educated themselves from a time frame when they werent allowed to read. That they were able to build up to the point that they could create and own there own leagues(Negro leagues). Have their own businesses, schools, hospitals, libraries. Build their own successfully comminities? Then what do you know we integrate and magically all these things disappear. In this moment is where they should have taken more of an immigrant mindset though. Instead of worrying about trying to be equal and apart of white America. Just focused on building and supporting their own until they reached the level necessary to command true equality. Then again they burned down a successful black community...

I am very much open to being informed of the detailed comparisons that directly correlate to the outline I posted earlier from the 1930s-2000s between blacks and immigrants. I mean among other things, there is a direct quote from Nixon's advisor admitting to targeting blacks.(Nobody will be held accountable for such decisions)

So a comparisin showing legal immigrants being targeted in the same manner would be helpful for discussion.

Many immigrants though also have another land and culture that they can directly pull from into America. African Americans cant pull such resources from Africa.

gunsnewing wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:It's a fact that the oppressors always think it's not as bad as the oppressed think. To all my brethren who believe it's not as bad need to come live in the south for a few months.

I don't think it's the 1960s down here, but it's definitely not 2017.

And if I can experience and be disgusted by white coworkers getting preferential treatment at work Because I'm not white, I can only imagine what the black population at my job goes through.

It's obvious that they routinely get the shorter end of the stick compared to other races.

Let's not talk about exceptions please.

When we see the private sector flush with non-white CEOs, then I'll believe that the opportunity is pretty much the same.

You might be right. It might be worse than the oppressors think but the bottom line is all peoples can pull together and do a better for themselves. Everyone should ask themselves what can I/we do better for our selves and our peoples.

This is the point Briggs, Akrud and others are trying to make I believe. Asians, Muslims, Jews you name it face bigger hurdles than present day African Americas. They weren't fortunate to be born on the shinny house on the Hill that is the USA. Majority don't speak the language, huge hurdles that prevents many from improving their families quality of life ever. However, they pull through for themselves and their families. They may not be afforded all the senior positions in their companies either but they don't hold press conferences that essentially chalk up their misfortunes to to systemic anything nor do they ever in any way blame other races. If some of them do it is never the first thing that crosses their mind.

This a perfect example of how and why racism is enabled in America. I am neither black, nor white and I am one of those immigrants he speaks of and nothing could be further from the truth.

He is acknowledging the barriers exist then he is indulging in pure sophistry to make it sound like pointing out the existence of the barriers is an act of weakness by black Americans and instead of showing even a shred of remorse or accountability he is positiining the argument to say it's ok for the barriers to exist and people need to suck it up and keep going. This in a nutshell is the essence of enabling racism in America today.