meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

So when you're buying a home, do you say to the seller, "Please tell me what the lowest offer you'll accept is"? Of course, not. There's a difference between what Phil wants and the minimum he'll require.

When your buying a home, the price is listed. Seller sets the price.
If its on the market for while you drop the price. If there are multiple bids, the price goes up.

If Melo was a house, he will be worth more to some than others, but if nobody wants him, the price goes down.

Thanks, finally someone who understands simple economics

MANY factors affect selling price. Sure, how many interested buyers there are does. But how desperate the seller is also does. It's not an either/or.

Who said we are desperate? Phil said he wants Melo gone, I wish he had said that two years ago. But he didn't say he will give Melo away for free or that he is desperate to get rid of him. That's just fans and media imputing their own version of the truth on to his words. Now I would honestly be ok if he doesn't get anything back because I don't think Melo has any trade value. Unless Austin Rivers passes for "value" these days. I just don't want tbe younger players to learn how to be a Diva from this career loser. That's value enough for me.

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

So when you're buying a home, do you say to the seller, "Please tell me what the lowest offer you'll accept is"? Of course, not. There's a difference between what Phil wants and the minimum he'll require.

When your buying a home, the price is listed. Seller sets the price.
If its on the market for while you drop the price. If there are multiple bids, the price goes up.

If Melo was a house, he will be worth more to some than others, but if nobody wants him, the price goes down.

Thanks, finally someone who understands simple economics

MANY factors affect selling price. Sure, how many interested buyers there are does. But how desperate the seller is also does. It's not an either/or.

Who said we are desperate? Phil said he wants Melo gone, I wish he had said that two years ago. But he didn't say he will give Melo away for free or that he is desperate to get rid of him. That's just fans and media imputing their own version of the truth on to his words. Now I would honestly be ok if he doesn't get anything back because I don't think Melo has any trade value. Unless Austin Rivers passes for "value" these days. I just don't want tbe younger players to learn how to be a Diva from this career loser. That's value enough for me.

Obviously as team president never specifically says "I'm desperate to get rid of my player." A president saying he wants his player gone is about as high a sign of desperation as I've ever heard of. I can't think of anything more desperate a team president has ever done.
I do agree with your second point though. I don't want any of the deals we've been hearing about, and Melo is still good enough that I wouldn't just waive him. He needs tough love though - playing only if he has smart shot selection and good defense.

Ok we won't agree on this. Wanting something is not a sign of desperation but people will read into it what they want. I don't think Phil takes any of those deals but personally I am not wrapped around some imaginary projected value that Melo has, because the evidence shoes he clearly doesn't. Would teams want him -- Yes, would they give up reasonable peeves to get him -- No.
This whole getting something back reasoning is absurd. Again not having his sulking presence as he and his fans play the victim around the kids that desperately need leadership is more long term value than "talent" we get back. If you have losing position, you cut your losses and move on, you don't sit around for it to regain value because it doesn't work that way. Very few people however have the requisite stones and the discipline to take short term hits for long term benefits. This is true for politics, sports and investing.

At the end of the day the question is "does melo help our current efforts toward making playoffs?" No man is an island so the thing is will he, also in decline, have enough around him to lead a team? Or, is the big picture that Melo is stagnating the offense and is it time to get KP and this years pick enough time and ball to grow it?

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

So when you're buying a home, do you say to the seller, "Please tell me what the lowest offer you'll accept is"? Of course, not. There's a difference between what Phil wants and the minimum he'll require.

When your buying a home, the price is listed. Seller sets the price.
If its on the market for while you drop the price. If there are multiple bids, the price goes up.

If Melo was a house, he will be worth more to some than others, but if nobody wants him, the price goes down.

Thanks, finally someone who understands simple economics

MANY factors affect selling price. Sure, how many interested buyers there are does. But how desperate the seller is also does. It's not an either/or.

Who said we are desperate? Phil said he wants Melo gone, I wish he had said that two years ago. But he didn't say he will give Melo away for free or that he is desperate to get rid of him. That's just fans and media imputing their own version of the truth on to his words. Now I would honestly be ok if he doesn't get anything back because I don't think Melo has any trade value. Unless Austin Rivers passes for "value" these days. I just don't want tbe younger players to learn how to be a Diva from this career loser. That's value enough for me.

Obviously as team president never specifically says "I'm desperate to get rid of my player." A president saying he wants his player gone is about as high a sign of desperation as I've ever heard of. I can't think of anything more desperate a team president has ever done.
I do agree with your second point though. I don't want any of the deals we've been hearing about, and Melo is still good enough that I wouldn't just waive him. He needs tough love though - playing only if he has smart shot selection and good defense.

Ok we won't agree on this. Wanting something is not a sign of desperation but people will read into it what they want. I don't think Phil takes any of those deals but personally I am not wrapped around some imaginary projected value that Melo has, because the evidence shoes he clearly doesn't. Would teams want him -- Yes, would they give up reasonable peeves to get him -- No.
This whole getting something back reasoning is absurd. Again not having his sulking presence as he and his fans play the victim around the kids that desperately need leadership is more long term value than "talent" we get back. If you have losing position, you cut your losses and move on, you don't sit around for it to regain value because it doesn't work that way. Very few people however have the requisite stones and the discipline to take short term hits for long term benefits. This is true for politics, sports and investing.

That's still a position of weakness even if you don't want to call it desperation. You want the other team's GM to think you want to keep your player but are willing to trade him if they make a strong offer. There's just no way to argue from the standpoint of leverage that you're better off with the other team knowing you don't want to keep the player than you are if the other GM doesn't have this information.

I think you are missing my point. I am not looking for leverage in trading Melo, I am looking to dump him and I'll take pieces that are somewhat easier to move our just buy him out. Don't really care. At this point dude is an albatross contract. We ate not going to get any value from trading him OR keeping him. So I am actually agnostic to either approach, I think dumping him or buyout is actually higher value because it removes the negativity from the locker room

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

It reaches a higher level of desperation when you tell the media on multiple occasions and try to push the player out through the media. Kenny Smith is right here. The way Phil is doing is unprecedented. It's the kind of thing that only happens with our dysfunctional franchise.

What is the anomaly here?
Phils public shaming?
Or
The No Trade Clause?

Without it, no drama, no public affirmations, declarations, or any discussion. Melo is not condusive to the direction of this team at the moment.

As for his value? Its comical to even suggest some how there is some big secret Phil is letting the world know.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

It reaches a higher level of desperation when you tell the media on multiple occasions and try to push the player out through the media. Kenny Smith is right here. The way Phil is doing is unprecedented. It's the kind of thing that only happens with our dysfunctional franchise.

What is the anomaly here?
Phils public shaming?
Or
The No Trade Clause?

Without it, no drama, no public affirmations, declarations, or any discussion. Melo is not condusive to the direction of this team at the moment.

As for his value? Its comical to even suggest some how there is some big secret Phil is letting the world know.

It's not an either/or. There's a tragic but comical irony to publicly shaming the guy you gave a no-trade clause to with the hope that he'll waive the NTC you gave him. Just another illustration of the dysfunctional drama that is unique to Knicks land. So far it hasn't reached Isiah era levels.

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

It reaches a higher level of desperation when you tell the media on multiple occasions and try to push the player out through the media. Kenny Smith is right here. The way Phil is doing is unprecedented. It's the kind of thing that only happens with our dysfunctional franchise.

What is the anomaly here?
Phils public shaming?
Or
The No Trade Clause?

Without it, no drama, no public affirmations, declarations, or any discussion. Melo is not condusive to the direction of this team at the moment.

As for his value? Its comical to even suggest some how there is some big secret Phil is letting the world know.

It's not an either/or. There's a tragic but comical irony to publicly shaming the guy you gave a no-trade clause to with the hope that he'll waive the NTC you gave him. Just another illustration of the dysfunctional drama that is unique to Knicks land. So far it hasn't reached Isiah era levels.

Right on point +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
The Knicks are a clueless franchise without direction, don’t know how to win and don’t know how to loose. The fact that we are picking 8 in the draft when we should have positioned ourselves for a top three pick is beyond stupidity and bad management.

actually they most certainly have a clue AND a direction... which is WHY they are trying to move Melo.

Also 1+1=2

And they are trying to move Melo exactly after giving Noah and Lee a FOUR YEAR DEAL (around 130 million in salary cap) to complement him. Wow great direction, sure the plan is working to perfection, PLEASE

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

It reaches a higher level of desperation when you tell the media on multiple occasions and try to push the player out through the media. Kenny Smith is right here. The way Phil is doing is unprecedented. It's the kind of thing that only happens with our dysfunctional franchise.

What is the anomaly here?
Phils public shaming?
Or
The No Trade Clause?

Without it, no drama, no public affirmations, declarations, or any discussion. Melo is not condusive to the direction of this team at the moment.

As for his value? Its comical to even suggest some how there is some big secret Phil is letting the world know.

It's not an either/or. There's a tragic but comical irony to publicly shaming the guy you gave a no-trade clause to with the hope that he'll waive the NTC you gave him. Just another illustration of the dysfunctional drama that is unique to Knicks land. So far it hasn't reached Isiah era levels.

Right on point +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
The Knicks are a clueless franchise without direction, don’t know how to win and don’t know how to loose. The fact that we are picking 8 in the draft when we should have positioned ourselves for a top three pick is beyond stupidity and bad management.

actually they most certainly have a clue AND a direction... which is WHY they are trying to move Melo.

Also 1+1=2

And they are trying to move Melo exactly after giving Noah and Lee a FOUR YEAR DEAL (around 130 million in salary cap) to complement him. Wow great direction, sure the plan is working to perfection, PLEASE

Please what? Both of those guys play the way Phil talks about. Ball movers and defenders. Noah was a bad deal because of his health but may yet show value. Lee is a good player and will continue to be after Melo is gone.

Correct.

And directions change over time. Just because you started going in one direction doesn't mean you keep doing that when all the evidence is showing you it's not working. It's called course correction and learning from your mistakes. Trying to buikd a team around Melo wothout mortgaging everything we had was a mistake and a costly one, but that isn't a reason to keep making more mistakes to justify the first one.

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we naive to think a team GM/President never made it known he wanted to trade a player?

It reaches a higher level of desperation when you tell the media on multiple occasions and try to push the player out through the media. Kenny Smith is right here. The way Phil is doing is unprecedented. It's the kind of thing that only happens with our dysfunctional franchise.

What is the anomaly here?
Phils public shaming?
Or
The No Trade Clause?

Without it, no drama, no public affirmations, declarations, or any discussion. Melo is not condusive to the direction of this team at the moment.

As for his value? Its comical to even suggest some how there is some big secret Phil is letting the world know.

It's not an either/or. There's a tragic but comical irony to publicly shaming the guy you gave a no-trade clause to with the hope that he'll waive the NTC you gave him. Just another illustration of the dysfunctional drama that is unique to Knicks land. So far it hasn't reached Isiah era levels.

Right on point +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
The Knicks are a clueless franchise without direction, don’t know how to win and don’t know how to loose. The fact that we are picking 8 in the draft when we should have positioned ourselves for a top three pick is beyond stupidity and bad management.

actually they most certainly have a clue AND a direction... which is WHY they are trying to move Melo.

Also 1+1=2

And they are trying to move Melo exactly after giving Noah and Lee a FOUR YEAR DEAL (around 130 million in salary cap) to complement him. Wow great direction, sure the plan is working to perfection, PLEASE

Please what? Both of those guys play the way Phil talks about. Ball movers and defenders. Noah was a bad deal because of his health but may yet show value. Lee is a good player and will continue to be after Melo is gone.

Correct.

And directions change over time. Just because you started going in one direction doesn't mean you keep doing that when all the evidence is showing you it's not working. It's called course correction and learning from your mistakes. Trying to buikd a team around Melo wothout mortgaging everything we had was a mistake and a costly one, but that isn't a reason to keep making more mistakes to justify the first one.

And what direction is that now? Since they were wining meaningless games at the end of the season that took them further from the top picks in lottery, please enlighten me.