fishmike wrote:the thread title tells you everything you need to know about Melo's leadership. If it "took a toll" its because Melo bitched about it and used it as an excuse for him under performing. "Hey guys.. I got a NTC. Lets just focus on winning the next game and playing better defense."
Case closed.

Instead its like "Damn Melo... you shot 8-24. AGAIN."
"Yea man.. I just keeping thinking about these Phil tweets."
<HUGS>

crzymdups wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.

No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.

As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.

Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.

What is inaccurate about that narrative? I guess I left out that Afflalo who played okay but was villified and left for nothing and he signed DWill who played okay but also left for nothing. Am I leaving anything else out?

I suppose I left out the coaching carousel, but I get exhausted thinking about that.

He's inarguably (well, I guess you guys are arguing it for some reason) made several shifts in strategy. First it was Free Agency where he'd bring in Triangle guys - we were sold LaMarcus Aldridge or maybe Deandre Jordan or... uh at worst Greg Monroe. None of them wanted any part of it. Then it was the draft and young players. Then he turned it all around and gave away his Triangle center and handpicked PG for Rose and Noah... I don't see consistency in anyway there. IF he had stayed the course, I might have more faith that he'll stay the course moving forward, but I don't.

Hell. Even WITHIN THIS SEASON they went from "Triangle aspects" to abandoning the Triangle for pick and roll and back to the Triangle after the all-star break. Making an argument for a consistent vision with Phil here is laughable.

When you're losing and the team's vets are bytching about the style of play it's not crazy to try and let them play the way they asked. Jeff tried that and the team still lost cuz those vets didn't give the needed effort on D!!! The least they could do is bust it on the defensive end after Jeff let them go full on Spread PnR.

So now we're back to running Triangle only with the kids and they're doing better. The problem is we can't easily build around Melo and it's not like they didn't try. Moreover why should they continue to try at this point??? Melo isn't worth the effort of all things the team has to do in order to make it work with him in at the core.

Now they should move on to building a new core not based on Melo!!! This summer should have nothing to do with Melo's needs. Those days are over!!!

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Next I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site

fwk00 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

I don't understand this narrative at all. Phil is grooming Mills and Houston and the rest of his staff as to how to manage assets, when to take chances, and when to hold them. The Westchester Knicks have become a stable asset to keep the end of the bench engaged and as a holding station for additional assets.

No plan can do more than create a framework for success that is dependent on the coaches and players. Phil,you, and I all look at the teams he's fielded on paper and reasonably expect the to make the playoffs but they don't. Triangulate why and Melo is the common denominator. It is what it is, nothing else.

As for meaningless games, who cares? Its ping-pong balls all the way down. We all have confidence that Phil, Gaines, and others will do right by the pick - again its no guarantee no matter where you pick.

Squint and you can see Phil's vision but its not whole cloth yet. Doesn't mean there's no plan or that he's incompetent.

inexperience Phil who has put together 3 losing ass teams is grooming Allan and Mills....lol.

I could understand if he was on the side lines like Riley goomoing his Eric..but his his awful at his current position, he needs to be groomed himself..

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspective
Thanks fishmike

Next I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site

How does it put it into perspective? That I was excited to draft Grant two years ago and two years later we have no Grant and he's been traded for a washed up veteran and I'm wondering what the plan is? Because that's what happened. Where's the agenda?

Now here's where I get you. Phil is paid 12$M to make succcesful moves and not the moves a fan would. He made mistakes .. but none of the moves have caused long term damage to the franchise.

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.

Only way to get Melo out of here is to make him uncomfortable. As it is Melo is a very content dude and Phil knows only way to make a move with Melo and his NTC is an uncomfortable environment.

With that said I predicted that this would be Melo's last season with the Knicks. It's only fair to move him for his own sake and the sake of the team. The player needed to incorporate to make Melo a winner just aren't available.

Vmart wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:This would be all fine and dandy if the losing happened after the Melo trade talks

Melo was put on the "block" January 20 or so
Knicks record at that time was already a few games under .500
The Knicks began to lose and that's when Phil asks melo about wanting to stay a knick or not

That said yes it was a distraction no doubt

But the losing already was going on. Team was imploding on the court before Melo trade talk.

Phil publicly slagged Melo and it got enough media attention that they met when the team was in LA in mid-December. These are facts. I know Phil and facts go together about as well as Trump and facts, but sorry they are facts.

Only way to get Melo out of here is to make him uncomfortable. As it is Melo is a very content dude and Phil knows only way to make a move with Melo and his NTC is an uncomfortable environment.

With that said I predicted that this would be Melo's last season with the Knicks. It's only fair to move him for his own sake and the sake of the team. The player needed to incorporate to make Melo a winner just aren't available.

And FA are suppose to applause this type of tactics

nyknickzingis wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

wow lol that puts the agenda so in perspective
Thanks fishmike

Next I'd like to read the reaction to drafting Porzingis from some of the Phil bashers and melo backers on this site

How does it put it into perspective? That I was excited to draft Grant two years ago and two years later we have no Grant and he's been traded for a washed up veteran and I'm wondering what the plan is? Because that's what happened. Where's the agenda?

Dude you were all for trading THJ away for Grant
Then you admit to being a fan of Rose
Knicks took a risk that fell through
You seemed to be in line with the moves until they failed

Now here's where I get you. Phil is paid 12$M to make succcesful moves and not the moves a fan would. He made mistakes .. but none of the moves have caused long term damage to the franchise.

I said I had previously been a fan of Rose and wasn't sure how I felt about the trade.

Go ahead and dig up Nix and Fish's narrative all that season BEFORE the Rose trade - it was that we were rebuilding and going with a youth movement and going back to the Triangle. Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle. Then that blew up and all the sudden we are rebuilding again and going with the Triangle again. It's exhausting and ineffective "building." You haven't been around here as long as some of us and haven't gone through the same narrative resets over and over again, so I get it. If we're FINALLY doing a real rebuild, I'm all for it. But we've gone down this road before, and I'll be skeptical until it sticks for more than a season.

The reason I brought up Hardaway and then Grant is the supposed pipeline of young players Phil has been bringing in since day one. I wasn't a huge fan of Hardaway's fit in the Triangle - though if you go back to 2013 you'll see I was all about drafting him and loved him his rookie season. He had a bumpy second season, in part because all the vets were slowly stripped away from that team and he was told to completely change his game. I coveted Grant in the draft, so I was okay trading Hardaway for Grant. I was less enthused about giving Grant away in the Rose deal. I think Grant has gone from a terrible team to play for, to an even worse situation in Chicago where they have two PGs ahead of him in MCW and Rondo. It's a mess.

But if you're talking about "Phil's pipeline of young players from day one" and "Phil has never had young players or draft picks to work with" - I think it is highly worth noting that Hardaway was traded away after a year and has blossomed elsewhere and that Grant was traded away after less than a year - he's yet to blossom elsewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. People here were taking shots at Tim Hardaway all last year when he struggled in Atlanta - but they built him back up right. It's a testament to Coach Budz's player development. That's a big thing we've lacked over the years in NY. You saw it with Ariza, with Frye, with Gallinari and Wilson and Shumpert and Hardaway. Guys who have been here a while have seen this happen over and over again.

Hey, I REALLY hope we get a stud in the draft. I REALLY hope this rebuild sticks. I REALLY do. I'm all about the Knicks being good. I haven't agreed with many of the moves taken to get to where we are, but it's about where it goes from here now. Nix will jump in and say we're clearly on the right path because Phil has committed to a rebuild. But he also said that last year before the Rose trade. IF we really commit to building with young guys, I'll gladly be more patient. But at this moment, I'm honestly not convinced that Melo even can be traded this summer.

Let me ask you this - will you guys have patience if Melo and Rose are brought back next season? Because I think there's actually a slight chance that may happen. It'll be funny to see the reactions here if even one of them is brought back after we spent this year hearing how they're the devil in a blue jersey.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!

crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.

How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?

Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)