fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Blame game. Everyone needs to cut the crap. It's hard to win in NY when the players have an agenda that opposes team ball. You want to blame Phil go ahead blame him but the true of the situation is the Knicks sucked well before Phil got here. Phil knows even if the Knicks make the playoffs there absolutely no chance they win a championship.

I don't blame Phil at all he has nothing to work with. All he has been doing is increasing the talent pool and you guys can't handle it. I am so convinced the majority of the win now fans will **** shyt up. The Knicks future lies in the draft. Think Patrick Ewing and Mark Jackson that is when it got exciting for the Knicks. Think KP with Ball you guys aren't seeing the big picture.

Scottie Pippen come out the wood works don't know shyt about the Knicks situation probably still pissed Kukoc took the last shot.

SO phil knows the best way is to build is through the draft but yet he continues to construct win now teams that fail. SO basically he is succeeding because he is so bad at his job that his poor performance is roster construction is leading to great draft position.

Yes he knows it's best to build through the draft. And most fans that follow the knives know they had one sinking first round pick the first three years he was here. Guess he should have just tried to build through the draft and psychotic Melo fans would have really respected that.

Can't make this sheeeit up

He accidentally tanks and gets praise for it. Are you suggesting he wasn't trying to win this year, last year or the year before when his team ended up in the lottery?

Phil absolutely backed into a tank this year and backed into a rebuild. Some here are set on blaming Melo and the players who didnt buy in and play defense. Some here want to blame Phil for assembling this cast in the first place. Have at it. I dont give a crap. For once we have our draft picks and we should get another very nice consolation prize. Some really have it out for Phil and I get the frustration but he hasnt hurt us. He's executed in the draft and our roster remains flexible. Thats all he's accomplished which isnt much but its something. He hasnt doubled down on bad moves or bad players as GMs have done in the past. So long as that remains and we continue to add talent and execute in the draft I remain patient. Genius like hofstra reads this as Phil love. Its not. Others would lament Phil's failure to rebuild the 54 win team around Melo. I think its been a long time since we have seen anything close to the play that was a top 5 MVP candidate. Some see that as Melo hate. Its not. Noah deserves huge blame as well. This year has been a total bust for a guy who was supposed to be a real glue for winning team.

The mistakes from Phil are plentiful and easy to pick on. I remain hopeful because we will get another good player in this draft. Rose/Melo were a coach killing combo. One wouldnt pass. The other doesnt know how. Both have massive egos that need catering to, and the guy who was supposed to balance that in Noah was totally MIA. The difference is when Isiah tried to win now and failed we got to watch players like Aldridge and Noah go to other teams. While Phil has failed to win now with this group he will add another high caliber prospect and we have the ability to move many or most of these players. Blame blame blame. It doesnt matter. I am not high on Melo so I dont lament the failure to rebuild around him. I see nothing in his game at this stage of the career that warrants that. Some how a "meh" reaction to that failure is enough to be labeled a Phil apologist or lover. Meh.

Add phil as the coach killing trio. His ego is more massive than the aforementioned. He's adding to the medis circus with his tweets and unwillingness to address or clarify comments with the media, which placed Melo in awkward positions to put out fires he did not start. The constant meddling, and under-cutting the authority of his coaches. Fisher is record saying as much. And yes, its understood that phil has eleven rings and is a hall of famer. But so is Riley. When he wanted things done his way, he stepped down from the front office and coached the damn team his-self.

The record speaks for itself, phils Knicks, I believe have the worse record of any team in the league (definitely bottom 3) since phil took over. With that said, I'm at the point where I would like to see the trio of Rose/Melo/Phil gone and start from scratch.

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Yes, there is blame, then there is "Lets replace him with empty concept"........

As for the head count, there are a few of you that are very vocal and very ambitious in your efforts. It sucks me into the convo!!
I said I wouldn't a few weeks ago!! I tried.
The masses usually get it wrong. WHY? Your mostly fed media flavor to get you angry.
Is phil to blame? Sure. Should he step down? nope. "KNick fans don't have patience reason why can't rebuild in NY". THree years in and ready to fire him.
We have all seen this movie before. As long as the platform of not trading picks is in place, I'll stay with it. Its not fool proof, but its different than what we have experienced before.

Well he is not good at what his current job description is..On top of that, he circumvents the bonding or relationship the players can have with their coach by insisting on running his system..This is most critical for a team playing hard for a coach...I don't understand why most don't get this...Players have to believe is what their coach believes in...Phil destroys that...I get he wants a system but it has to be the coach's system..Phil, as a coach, would never agree to what he is asking Hornacek to do...It's EGO..

Well there you go. Its your personal perspective. You would be humiliated, but then your not the coach.
Don't you think Jeff knew all of this before he was hired? Wasn't there a meeting of the minds and this was really talked thru?
Phil destroys the coach cred? I don't think Jeff ever lost this team. "Confusion" has many meanings regarding what happened. A team not clicking attempts to try different things. If they don't, detracters say "They won't change"......Team had a plan, but if players don't execute, then changes are presented. They can be confusing.

If you internalize that after all the discussions about the triangle jeff would be emasculated by any presence by the Lord of the Rings, then its your issue, not Jeff's.

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Yes, there is blame, then there is "Lets replace him with empty concept"........

As for the head count, there are a few of you that are very vocal and very ambitious in your efforts. It sucks me into the convo!!
I said I wouldn't a few weeks ago!! I tried.
The masses usually get it wrong. WHY? Your mostly fed media flavor to get you angry.
Is phil to blame? Sure. Should he step down? nope. "KNick fans don't have patience reason why can't rebuild in NY". THree years in and ready to fire him.
We have all seen this movie before. As long as the platform of not trading picks is in place, I'll stay with it. Its not fool proof, but its different than what we have experienced before.

Well he is not good at what his current job description is..On top of that, he circumvents the bonding or relationship the players can have with their coach by insisting on running his system..This is most critical for a team playing hard for a coach...I don't understand why most don't get this...Players have to believe is what their coach believes in...Phil destroys that...I get he wants a system but it has to be the coach's system..Phil, as a coach, would never agree to what he is asking Hornacek to do...It's EGO..

Well there you go. Its your personal perspective. You would be humiliated, but then your not the coach.
Don't you think Jeff knew all of this before he was hired? Wasn't there a meeting of the minds and this was really talked thru?
Phil destroys the coach cred? I don't think Jeff ever lost this team. "Confusion" has many meanings regarding what happened. A team not clicking attempts to try different things. If they don't, detracters say "They won't change"......Team had a plan, but if players don't execute, then changes are presented. They can be confusing.

If you internalize that after all the discussions about the triangle jeff would be emasculated by any presence by the Lord of the Rings, then its your issue, not Jeff's.

Here's what Fisher had to say about phil's meddling:

Fisher said Jackson’s presence and insistence on running the triangle offense made it challenging for the players to understand who was coaching the team. “One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand ‘who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’ ”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/derek-fisher-discusses-his-difficulties-working-under-knicks-phil-jackson-with-bleacher-report-1.13037167

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Blame game. Everyone needs to cut the crap. It's hard to win in NY when the players have an agenda that opposes team ball. You want to blame Phil go ahead blame him but the true of the situation is the Knicks sucked well before Phil got here. Phil knows even if the Knicks make the playoffs there absolutely no chance they win a championship.

I don't blame Phil at all he has nothing to work with. All he has been doing is increasing the talent pool and you guys can't handle it. I am so convinced the majority of the win now fans will **** shyt up. The Knicks future lies in the draft. Think Patrick Ewing and Mark Jackson that is when it got exciting for the Knicks. Think KP with Ball you guys aren't seeing the big picture.

Scottie Pippen come out the wood works don't know shyt about the Knicks situation probably still pissed Kukoc took the last shot.

SO phil knows the best way is to build is through the draft but yet he continues to construct win now teams that fail. SO basically he is succeeding because he is so bad at his job that his poor performance is roster construction is leading to great draft position.

Yes he knows it's best to build through the draft. And most fans that follow the knives know they had one sinking first round pick the first three years he was here. Guess he should have just tried to build through the draft and psychotic Melo fans would have really respected that.

Can't make this sheeeit up

He accidentally tanks and gets praise for it. Are you suggesting he wasn't trying to win this year, last year or the year before when his team ended up in the lottery?

Phil absolutely backed into a tank this year and backed into a rebuild. Some here are set on blaming Melo and the players who didnt buy in and play defense. Some here want to blame Phil for assembling this cast in the first place. Have at it. I dont give a crap. For once we have our draft picks and we should get another very nice consolation prize. Some really have it out for Phil and I get the frustration but he hasnt hurt us. He's executed in the draft and our roster remains flexible. Thats all he's accomplished which isnt much but its something. He hasnt doubled down on bad moves or bad players as GMs have done in the past. So long as that remains and we continue to add talent and execute in the draft I remain patient. Genius like hofstra reads this as Phil love. Its not. Others would lament Phil's failure to rebuild the 54 win team around Melo. I think its been a long time since we have seen anything close to the play that was a top 5 MVP candidate. Some see that as Melo hate. Its not. Noah deserves huge blame as well. This year has been a total bust for a guy who was supposed to be a real glue for winning team.

The mistakes from Phil are plentiful and easy to pick on. I remain hopeful because we will get another good player in this draft. Rose/Melo were a coach killing combo. One wouldnt pass. The other doesnt know how. Both have massive egos that need catering to, and the guy who was supposed to balance that in Noah was totally MIA. The difference is when Isiah tried to win now and failed we got to watch players like Aldridge and Noah go to other teams. While Phil has failed to win now with this group he will add another high caliber prospect and we have the ability to move many or most of these players. Blame blame blame. It doesnt matter. I am not high on Melo so I dont lament the failure to rebuild around him. I see nothing in his game at this stage of the career that warrants that. Some how a "meh" reaction to that failure is enough to be labeled a Phil apologist or lover. Meh.

Add phil as the coach killing trio. His ego is more massive than the aforementioned. He's adding to the medis circus with his tweets and unwillingness to address or clarify comments with the media, which placed Melo in awkward positions to put out fires he did not start. The constant meddling, and under-cutting the authority of his coaches. Fisher is record saying as much. And yes, its understood that phil has eleven rings and is a hall of famer. But so is Riley. When he wanted things done his way, he stepped down from the front office and coached the damn team his-self.

The record speaks for itself, phils Knicks, I believe have the worse record of any team in the league (definitely bottom 3) since phil took over. With that said, I'm at the point where I would like to see the trio of Rose/Melo/Phil gone and start from scratch.

I would have no problem with new management. Does that mean Dolan gets involved again? Because I would rather Phil fumble and bumble and make his mistakes than reboot with a Dolan puppet. At least Phil has upside as he's new at this may yet figure out what works for him and doesnt.

Most of the stuff you mentioned is tabloid fodder about his interference and undermining coaches. Guy has 11 rings as a coach. He's going to offer input. Maybe he has undermined. Maybe he hasnt. I have more patience with Phil figuring it out than figuring out a management FO that can successfully build around Melo, which many here lament as a great failure.

We all know that Dolan is the root of the problem, unfortunately, he ain't going to uproot his-self. One of my major issues with phil is his inability to hire a coach and give him the same opportunity, freedom and TRUST to create his own success the same way most GM's and presidents allow their hired coaches to.

Phil's lack of a consistent plan. Yes, it does seem like we have stumbled our way into slight rebuild..hopefully he will see it all the way through and not half-ass-it. But, phil had a summer triangle training camp, so it looked as if we start the season that way. Then, we sign Rose (anti triangle player) Noah and Lee and the plan changes. Hornacek runs his own system with some aspects of the triangle utilized during out of bounds plays, after time outs, etc. Then when the season is in the dumps, we go back to the triangle full time causing confusion in and out of the organization. You call phils antics media fodder, but, it adds to the circus atmosphere that's surrounded this team since Layden, Isiah, Next-Town-Brown, etc. In the news for all the wrong reasons; reasons that have nothing to do with W's and L's. This franchise does not look very attractive from afar. I think most of us thought, phil would at least bring a sense of professionalism to the team but he failed to do that.

Because of this, I'm not comfortable allowing phil to continue to figure things out....We need a guy who knows what he's doing, what he wants, has a plan and can bring this franchise back respectability. A guy that wont alienate most of the league... ..

Uptown wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Yes, there is blame, then there is "Lets replace him with empty concept"........

As for the head count, there are a few of you that are very vocal and very ambitious in your efforts. It sucks me into the convo!!
I said I wouldn't a few weeks ago!! I tried.
The masses usually get it wrong. WHY? Your mostly fed media flavor to get you angry.
Is phil to blame? Sure. Should he step down? nope. "KNick fans don't have patience reason why can't rebuild in NY". THree years in and ready to fire him.
We have all seen this movie before. As long as the platform of not trading picks is in place, I'll stay with it. Its not fool proof, but its different than what we have experienced before.

Well he is not good at what his current job description is..On top of that, he circumvents the bonding or relationship the players can have with their coach by insisting on running his system..This is most critical for a team playing hard for a coach...I don't understand why most don't get this...Players have to believe is what their coach believes in...Phil destroys that...I get he wants a system but it has to be the coach's system..Phil, as a coach, would never agree to what he is asking Hornacek to do...It's EGO..

Well there you go. Its your personal perspective. You would be humiliated, but then your not the coach.
Don't you think Jeff knew all of this before he was hired? Wasn't there a meeting of the minds and this was really talked thru?
Phil destroys the coach cred? I don't think Jeff ever lost this team. "Confusion" has many meanings regarding what happened. A team not clicking attempts to try different things. If they don't, detracters say "They won't change"......Team had a plan, but if players don't execute, then changes are presented. They can be confusing.

If you internalize that after all the discussions about the triangle jeff would be emasculated by any presence by the Lord of the Rings, then its your issue, not Jeff's.

Here's what Fisher had to say about phil's meddling:

Fisher said Jackson’s presence and insistence on running the triangle offense made it challenging for the players to understand who was coaching the team. “One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand ‘who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’ ”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/derek-fisher-discusses-his-difficulties-working-under-knicks-phil-jackson-with-bleacher-report-1.13037167

Enter next coach. What is different? What is Phil going to do to ensure he doesnt fail again? Phil is certainly fumbling his way through this but I see very little thought applied by a lot of people blowing off steam here. Its pretty much Jose, Melo, tweets, Noah, this guy is an idiot and everything he does sucks. My favorite is when I read it from a poster who defended Isiah as a good GM until the bitter end.

For me this is pretty simple. Yes Phil has stumbled and not looked good, but as a new GM he should get a stretch to get it right. His only long term mistake is Noah's contract and that future is yet to be determined. He's drafted well. We scout and develop young players. He failed to get anything from Melo after signing him (baring a trade), but he's kept the picks and its not just that KP was a good pick, its that he was the BEST pick at that spot and that means something as there were others players with pressure for him to take there. Willy is a gem. Thats a homerun in the making. Dolan is out of the pic. So yea... I can live with Phil figuring it out so long as we acquiring young talent good enough to make the talent worth it.

Here's some perspective on well he has drafted. If we didnt lose the Bargs pick AND Phil used it to draft Willy in last years draft it would stand as a great draft. The reason I place so much weight on that is I think Phil is a guy who will correct mistakes if given the chance. Everyone has pined for a rebuild for years. Only one team has ever rebuild on purpose... people arent OK with it unless Phil says ahead of time "we intend to lose 50+ games." Its soo silly. People have cried rebuild for years. Now we have a guy who drafts well, is focused on building and adding young talent to the roster and people cant cope. Sorry Melo was the victim here. I dont really care. I just a team built around a group of young talent that can sustain a decade type of run. This is how those teams are usually built. A few bad years and a few good drafts. Its really that simple for me. The rest is noise

BRIGGS wrote:If we had more players--Id give Phil a pass but he doesnt and the record speaks for itself.

Still no matter what we are going to add atleast one more young piece and its a consolation prize that is necessary. If we pick 4-5 I do not think we can miss.

Pippen is a bit of a disloyal guy here--I will say that.

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Yes, there is blame, then there is "Lets replace him with empty concept"........

As for the head count, there are a few of you that are very vocal and very ambitious in your efforts. It sucks me into the convo!!
I said I wouldn't a few weeks ago!! I tried.
The masses usually get it wrong. WHY? Your mostly fed media flavor to get you angry.
Is phil to blame? Sure. Should he step down? nope. "KNick fans don't have patience reason why can't rebuild in NY". THree years in and ready to fire him.
We have all seen this movie before. As long as the platform of not trading picks is in place, I'll stay with it. Its not fool proof, but its different than what we have experienced before.

Well he is not good at what his current job description is..On top of that, he circumvents the bonding or relationship the players can have with their coach by insisting on running his system..This is most critical for a team playing hard for a coach...I don't understand why most don't get this...Players have to believe is what their coach believes in...Phil destroys that...I get he wants a system but it has to be the coach's system..Phil, as a coach, would never agree to what he is asking Hornacek to do...It's EGO..

Well there you go. Its your personal perspective. You would be humiliated, but then your not the coach.
Don't you think Jeff knew all of this before he was hired? Wasn't there a meeting of the minds and this was really talked thru?
Phil destroys the coach cred? I don't think Jeff ever lost this team. "Confusion" has many meanings regarding what happened. A team not clicking attempts to try different things. If they don't, detracters say "They won't change"......Team had a plan, but if players don't execute, then changes are presented. They can be confusing.

If you internalize that after all the discussions about the triangle jeff would be emasculated by any presence by the Lord of the Rings, then its your issue, not Jeff's.

Of course Jeff lost the team...Players on the team went public saying we don't practice defense..We practice defense only against the triangle...Rose went AWOL..KP said there is confusion top to bottom, which implicates Phil and Hornacek as well..Melo said he wished Hornacek sticked with his system..KP and Calderon lobbied for more pick and roll plays with Fisher..They don't respect the coach...But it's not just me saying it, Fisher said it, Byron Scott said it...

Hornacek wanted a job..I'll say anything to make 3+ mil per year...Phil doesn't have the humility to recognize he needs to allow other ideas to flourish for the good of the team...

As I said in another post, most of us thought phil would at least bring a sense of respectability and professionalism back to the franchise. Instead, at this point he is another clown in the MSG circus...SMH

And he is out of touch...Dissing players and their games were ok in the 80s/90s...He thought the "posse" story between himself and Riley would garnered support and sympathy seeing his side of things...WRONG..They are coming across like a couple of old dudes living in the 60s...

EnySpree wrote:If nobody said it yet....

FUCK SCOTTIE PIPPEN

Yup! and the horse he rode in!