Bonn1997 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:In the short term we have been one of the worst managed teams in the league. No question. Noah, Melo NTC, Rose all stunk for us. Before that other moves like the Calderon/Dalambert, or Affalo moves didn't work all that great either.

But longterm we are better set up than many teams and there are teams far worse set up than us. We will have 25$ million in capspace, Melo to trade, a 2017 draft lottery pick and still have building blocks in KP/Willy.

More Noahs and Melos! Yeah if all our picks including future lottery picks pan out great we're in good shape. That's not the kind of reasoning any national source without an allegiance to us is going to use though. They're just going to look at what the players actually are doing right now and maybe what the trend from past seasons has been (e.g, KP last year to this year).

What reasoning did this national dose use in coming up with this result set?

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:In the short term we have been one of the worst managed teams in the league. No question. Noah, Melo NTC, Rose all stunk for us. Before that other moves like the Calderon/Dalambert, or Affalo moves didn't work all that great either.

But longterm we are better set up than many teams and there are teams far worse set up than us. We will have 25$ million in capspace, Melo to trade, a 2017 draft lottery pick and still have building blocks in KP/Willy.

More Noahs and Melos! Yeah if all our picks including future lottery picks pan out great we're in good shape. That's not the kind of reasoning any national source without an allegiance to us is going to use though. They're just going to look at what the players actually are doing right now and maybe what the trend from past seasons has been (e.g, KP last year to this year).

What reasoning did this national dose use in coming up with this result set?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

While I have to admit that a lot of the damage was done prior to Jackson getting here, he has not help himself either. If Brooklyn can get a 1st rounder for Bogdanovic, why didn’t the Knicks get at least one for Shumpert, JR and Chandler. What was the point of getting Calderon? Anybody who follows the league knew Jose was declining big time in Dallas. And the same goes for Noah. The Knicks may try to trade Melo in the offseason, it’s going to be challenging for them to get decent value for him after Jackson publicly criticized his start player in the media? Sometimes to improve your situation you have to create your OWN opportunities and I think PHIL HAS FAIL BIG TIME at that

You have to go look at each player, and trade value at the moment of the trade. JR was a dump, Shump who was pending FA we were not resigning, so we got what we got.
BOGO went to a contender who had a first round pick to offer and its going to be a low first round pick. He is a premier shooter going to an athletic team who needs that.
Tyson and Felton had to bring some salary back. Larken was a former first rounder who got an audition. We got Clearanthony, Forgot if we got another pick, and Jose, who at 7mm per was not a high salary.
The decision seemed like we Langston and Grant, one will step up and start. Year beofre Jose was injured. 7mm per. You want to pay shup mkt value of 10 per year? JR got 14mm per year? We won 17 games with them as core players for us. IT was not pretty.

Sometimes good decisions don't pan out. What we can't see is woudl Clev had one two chips with other choices? Don't know. We really looking at nets as the belweather now?
Does anyone really know if BOgo will yield a better player for the pick? Nets have cap space and still very few picks. They swap with boston next year.
In two more years, can nets win more than 30 games? Will they have a player like KP on the roster? They have Bropez as their main asset and tried to move him for two picks. he hurts his foot their fans will be outraged they did not move him for anything!!!!! Hindsight!!!

I guess there are two ways of interpreting Phil's trades and FA signings.

1) The people who thought he was making smart decisions at the time were right. They were smart ones. It's just a strange occurrence that the team has struggled so much.
2) The people criticizing the decisions at the time were right. They realized things Phil didn't. The results have proven them right.

There's no way to prove which of those two is the right interpretation. #1 looks pretty desperate to me and I'm not buying it though.

Do you honestly believe that Phil's decisions led to our struggles? What about before Phil, how come we were still struggling? How do you define struggling? We're you expecting playoffs? At the start of the season you said we could win between 25 and 50 games this season or something along those lines. If you were sure that he made such horrible decisions why didn't you narrow it down to 25-30 wins?

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

While I have to admit that a lot of the damage was done prior to Jackson getting here, he has not help himself either. If Brooklyn can get a 1st rounder for Bogdanovic, why didn’t the Knicks get at least one for Shumpert, JR and Chandler. What was the point of getting Calderon? Anybody who follows the league knew Jose was declining big time in Dallas. And the same goes for Noah. The Knicks may try to trade Melo in the offseason, it’s going to be challenging for them to get decent value for him after Jackson publicly criticized his start player in the media? Sometimes to improve your situation you have to create your OWN opportunities and I think PHIL HAS FAIL BIG TIME at that

You have to go look at each player, and trade value at the moment of the trade. JR was a dump, Shump who was pending FA we were not resigning, so we got what we got.
BOGO went to a contender who had a first round pick to offer and its going to be a low first round pick. He is a premier shooter going to an athletic team who needs that.
Tyson and Felton had to bring some salary back. Larken was a former first rounder who got an audition. We got Clearanthony, Forgot if we got another pick, and Jose, who at 7mm per was not a high salary.
The decision seemed like we Langston and Grant, one will step up and start. Year beofre Jose was injured. 7mm per. You want to pay shup mkt value of 10 per year? JR got 14mm per year? We won 17 games with them as core players for us. IT was not pretty.

Sometimes good decisions don't pan out. What we can't see is woudl Clev had one two chips with other choices? Don't know. We really looking at nets as the belweather now?
Does anyone really know if BOgo will yield a better player for the pick? Nets have cap space and still very few picks. They swap with boston next year.
In two more years, can nets win more than 30 games? Will they have a player like KP on the roster? They have Bropez as their main asset and tried to move him for two picks. he hurts his foot their fans will be outraged they did not move him for anything!!!!! Hindsight!!!

I guess there are two ways of interpreting Phil's trades and FA signings.

1) The people who thought he was making smart decisions at the time were right. They were smart ones. It's just a strange occurrence that the team has struggled so much.
2) The people criticizing the decisions at the time were right. They realized things Phil didn't. The results have proven them right.

There's no way to prove which of those two is the right interpretation. #1 looks pretty desperate to me and I'm not buying it though.

Do you honestly believe that Phil's decisions led to our struggles? What about before Phil, how come we were still struggling? How do you define struggling? We're you expecting playoffs? At the start of the season you said we could win between 25 and 50 games this season or something along those lines. If you were sure that he made such horrible decisions why didn't you narrow it down to 25-30 wins?

Nalod wrote:Nets moved from the past process and are building.

Sean Marks and Kenny Atkinson are not continuing the "self inflict" harm onto their franchise. The Nets have problems, but Marks and Atkinson inherited these problems and are not looking to create more problems for themselves. All of their decisions make sense from a market perspective. They may not work out, but the methodology and logic is there.

There is ZERO logic in signing Noah to a monster 4 year deal. There is ZERO logic in pushing an offense that is complicated onto a "clumsy" roster. There is ZERO logic in trading for an aging and expiring ball hog who won't play D and can't hit the three ball at even a league average rate.

It's like a guy with 1000 bucks in his wallet and no financial common sense and a guy with 100 bucks in his wallet but has good financial value and common sense. Yes, one situation, immediately one has a little more headway, but the methodology and logic will let the latter soon outstrip the former. Some guys have a basket of fish and no skills. Some guys only have an empty basket but know how to fish. Who do you think wins out in the end?

Marks is young, he has a future there if he works out. He came from a winning franchise, he was groomed for this kind of job. He's being allowed to do his job without interference. HOW HARD IS THAT TO DO? I mean the Knicks make this **** so mother f**king hard on themselves. Literally , pick one of 20 young guys grooming in other established front offices, let him pick a coach he wants and let the coach do his job and let the GM do his job without meddling. HOW HARD IS THIS?

It's like the Knicks are pushing a cart, and Jackson says, hey, let's push this b*tch up a hill, why don't we. And Dolan says, why not fill it with lead weights. And Melo says, let's get drunk first and cut our ankles with a machete and jab icepicks in our eyes first. While nearly every other team in the league simply pushes it forward, empty and on flat land.

If you are trying to build a team the right way and you fail, then you tried your best. It happens.

But for the Knicks, it's about ego, it's about personal legacy, about personal branding and stats, about all kinds of crap that has nothing to do with winning basketball games.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

Nalod wrote:Lakers have leagues worst record, hired a starphuch who has a history of idiotic tweets, has made some bad moves themselves and all just made peace after a failed palace coup d'état to remove Jeannie.
Only thing lakers have done right is keeping their picks the last few years. They need to finish 1-2-3 in lotto or Philly gets their pick!

Nalod only cares about 2 things regarding front office:

1. Wins/Losses
2. Decisions made.

Number 1 is the score card for number 2. What is lost on many is how we came to be here. Nets moved from the past process and are building. Phil in three years has not destroyed a good team nor sold out our future. I like some decisions but not the short term results. 3 years is not time to evaluate and fire. That's my opinion. IM generally not as reactionary as some of you.
All teams makes mistakes and most are not firable events. Also, sometimes you lose the battle to win the war.

Only thing I can fault him on was the Noah contract. The rest are not franchise killers. All teams don't score on all decisions.

Yea and good teams don’t strikeout in most decisions either, if Phil only mistake is the Noah’s contract, why is our record so terrible? One bad decision should not make us one of the worst team in the NBA. It takes multiple bad decisions to be this bad.

1 draft pick in three years is a symptom from previous decisions.
Melo and the price we paid to get him was a symptom. We got old quick and decision with the sheed and Kidd lead team was a short term "Nice" event, but really who thought it was sustainable.
Last month of that season Melo carried the team back to the 4th seed and the team was gassed. It was indicative of the roster. The next year, not a phil year, we won 37 games. A tear down was needed.
Phil owns Melo I suppose, but Dolan has a history of holding to promises and I think the NTC was one of them. With little return from the draft, we did need a player to put up stats and keep the show going.
I don't think Grunwald was fired for anything he did wrong. MSG did a big top to bottom evaluation with Mckinsey and Co. and dolan was convinced by them that knicks have been exploited for years by trading future picks.
Its why Kyle Lowry was not traded here.

My take is it took years to build this problem and with a hard cap, its harder to undue it.
My take is at this moment in time one cannot undue the past, nor the decisions. What would a new team president do NOW that would make it all better?
No doubt our expectations are inflated with Phil. Knicks can't succeed or make meaningful changes without assets. Thus, I say we have made good decisions that have not translated yet.

While I have to admit that a lot of the damage was done prior to Jackson getting here, he has not help himself either. If Brooklyn can get a 1st rounder for Bogdanovic, why didn’t the Knicks get at least one for Shumpert, JR and Chandler. What was the point of getting Calderon? Anybody who follows the league knew Jose was declining big time in Dallas. And the same goes for Noah. The Knicks may try to trade Melo in the offseason, it’s going to be challenging for them to get decent value for him after Jackson publicly criticized his start player in the media? Sometimes to improve your situation you have to create your OWN opportunities and I think PHIL HAS FAIL BIG TIME at that

You have to go look at each player, and trade value at the moment of the trade. JR was a dump, Shump who was pending FA we were not resigning, so we got what we got.
BOGO went to a contender who had a first round pick to offer and its going to be a low first round pick. He is a premier shooter going to an athletic team who needs that.
Tyson and Felton had to bring some salary back. Larken was a former first rounder who got an audition. We got Clearanthony, Forgot if we got another pick, and Jose, who at 7mm per was not a high salary.
The decision seemed like we Langston and Grant, one will step up and start. Year beofre Jose was injured. 7mm per. You want to pay shup mkt value of 10 per year? JR got 14mm per year? We won 17 games with them as core players for us. IT was not pretty.

Sometimes good decisions don't pan out. What we can't see is woudl Clev had one two chips with other choices? Don't know. We really looking at nets as the belweather now?
Does anyone really know if BOgo will yield a better player for the pick? Nets have cap space and still very few picks. They swap with boston next year.
In two more years, can nets win more than 30 games? Will they have a player like KP on the roster? They have Bropez as their main asset and tried to move him for two picks. he hurts his foot their fans will be outraged they did not move him for anything!!!!! Hindsight!!!

I guess there are two ways of interpreting Phil's trades and FA signings.

1) The people who thought he was making smart decisions at the time were right. They were smart ones. It's just a strange occurrence that the team has struggled so much.
2) The people criticizing the decisions at the time were right. They realized things Phil didn't. The results have proven them right.

There's no way to prove which of those two is the right interpretation. #1 looks pretty desperate to me and I'm not buying it though.

Do you honestly believe that Phil's decisions led to our struggles? What about before Phil, how come we were still struggling? How do you define struggling? We're you expecting playoffs? At the start of the season you said we could win between 25 and 50 games this season or something along those lines. If you were sure that he made such horrible decisions why didn't you narrow it down to 25-30 wins?

We can only talk in probabilities. I never said I was certain his moves wouldn't work out but rather they were bad gambles. I don't remember saying 25 to 50 but if I did, perhaps it was probably in the context of my saying something like, "anything is possible even though the decisions were bad gambles." I was opposed to every decision major trade and signing on the record when they happened though. (And just to be clear, I'm not talk about the draft picks. That's the only thing Phil seems to be able to do effectively.)
No, I would not say Phil's decisions led to our struggles. I'd say the trades and FA signings continued and worsened the struggles, though.

Time will tell. In the short term they maynit have made us better. I have criticized the NTC, Melo and Noah signings. But I dont approach everything as black and white. And I don't try to compare those with other teams in a vacuum not saying you do but I see a lot of it here.

Melo had asked for a starting PG, Grant didn't work out and there weren't any other starting PGs he could have gotten. I am a risk taker and I was ok with getting him on a one year deal. But it cost us Rolo. Rolo was the only asset we had that could be traded for anything of value. That's where the risk comes in. Rose has been relatively healthy, and has shown that he is still a skilled player, it's hard to argue that we lost that trade. If we resign him on a decent contract he can be a trade asset just like Rolo was.

With Rolo gone we needed a starting center who could also mentor KP and Billy. Again it wasn't like there were a pool of them available. Noah is team first guy and a defensive presence. He was a health risk and the contract was bad. But if he plays ball next year and actually mentors the kids it may still be OK. Of our three overblown contacts he is the least toxic, in that he takes up a ton of cap space but doesn't hurt the team in other ways.

The thing about risk taking is that if they don't work you have to accept the outcome and move on. If you just focus on coulda, woulda, shoulda it undermines your confidence and your judgement.

When Phil got in here he had to appease Melo otherwise he would have been fired. He had to atleast trey to put players around him just to keep his job. This we know based on past history. And you can't rebuild **** with one draft pick in 3 years. I didn't expect anything great nor do I think he has made the Knicks worse but I do take a long term view.

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Knicks are 29th in Pres/GM rankings. Phil better hope Sac doesn't replace Vlade.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19031533/gm-president-ratings-1-30

2015 Worst coach in the NBA..Guess who!!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12561256/2015-front-office-rankings-top-coaches



2015 Worst Front office in teh NBA...Guess who!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12541459/nba-front-office-rankings-2015

2016 Worst front office in the NBA..Guess Who!!!

Its a complete joke...

These things are a domino effect of losing of course. For example, Hornacek wouldn't have been this low during the 48 win season in phoenix. And it's not like he's a worse coach today. Also, Cleveland has pretty much struggled in all areas outside of Lebron returning. And i doubt they had any impact on his decision. He was coming home regardless. He has made them look great on what would otherwise be a bad situation without him.

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Knicks are 29th in Pres/GM rankings. Phil better hope Sac doesn't replace Vlade.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19031533/gm-president-ratings-1-30

2015 Worst coach in the NBA..Guess who!!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12561256/2015-front-office-rankings-top-coaches



2015 Worst Front office in teh NBA...Guess who!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12541459/nba-front-office-rankings-2015

2016 Worst front office in the NBA..Guess Who!!!

Its a complete joke...

These things are a domino effect of losing of course. For example, Hornacek wouldn't have been this low during the 48 win season in phoenix. And it's not like he's a worse coach today. Also, Cleveland has pretty much struggled in all areas outside of Lebron returning. And i doubt they had any impact on his decision. He was coming home regardless. He has made them look great on what would otherwise be a bad situation without him.

The domino effect was Phil taking over. The Knicks dropped 20 games in a year and they were one year removed from winning 54.

The Knicks have had the worst coach in the NBA for three years running...And Rambis too for a stint who is considered one of the worst in NBA HISTORY...You can't make this shet up...

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Knicks are 29th in Pres/GM rankings. Phil better hope Sac doesn't replace Vlade.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19031533/gm-president-ratings-1-30

2015 Worst coach in the NBA..Guess who!!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12561256/2015-front-office-rankings-top-coaches



2015 Worst Front office in teh NBA...Guess who!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12541459/nba-front-office-rankings-2015

2016 Worst front office in the NBA..Guess Who!!!

Its a complete joke...

These things are a domino effect of losing of course. For example, Hornacek wouldn't have been this low during the 48 win season in phoenix. And it's not like he's a worse coach today. Also, Cleveland has pretty much struggled in all areas outside of Lebron returning. And i doubt they had any impact on his decision. He was coming home regardless. He has made them look great on what would otherwise be a bad situation without him.

The domino effect was Phil taking over. The Knicks dropped 20 games in a year and they were one year removed from winning 54.

why do you keep bringing up the 54 win year as if it had some value on other years? I don't get that

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Knicks are 29th in Pres/GM rankings. Phil better hope Sac doesn't replace Vlade.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19031533/gm-president-ratings-1-30

2015 Worst coach in the NBA..Guess who!!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12561256/2015-front-office-rankings-top-coaches



2015 Worst Front office in teh NBA...Guess who!!!
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/12541459/nba-front-office-rankings-2015

2016 Worst front office in the NBA..Guess Who!!!

Its a complete joke...

These things are a domino effect of losing of course. For example, Hornacek wouldn't have been this low during the 48 win season in phoenix. And it's not like he's a worse coach today. Also, Cleveland has pretty much struggled in all areas outside of Lebron returning. And i doubt they had any impact on his decision. He was coming home regardless. He has made them look great on what would otherwise be a bad situation without him.

The domino effect was Phil taking over. The Knicks dropped 20 games in a year and they were one year removed from winning 54.

why do you keep bringing up the 54 win year as if it had some value on other years? I don't get that