martin wrote:
My guess is because that's what everyone has talked about: the Triangle and how bad it is, that's the emphasis, whereas the trend there seems to be getting better. And you are right, the defense is what's poor for the Knicks.

There are so many components to making a good team and executing it. Talent, health, cohesion, planning and commitment to it. How long does it take to get from piss poor to playoffs?

2014-15 was an obvious tear down year. You had Gallo and Larkin starting, LT and Bargs and Shved too. That's rock bottom. You get KP for that.

Unfortunately the Knicks didn't have a pick after the next year.

What is the expectation of a team that has 1 pick in 3 years? Seattle/OKC took 2 full years of Durant and Westbrook - 2 all world guys before they got out of the 30 win range.

Let's look at GS. Curry's first year was 2009-2010. 26 Wins. (2008-2009 they got 29 wins to GET the curry pick). 2010-2011 was a 36 win season and netted Thompson. 2011-12 they win 23 games. At this point Knicks fans would have traded both Curry and Thompson many times over. The next year they finally got out of the below .500 range for 47 wins (that was the year Green had an eFG% of .354 and averaged 2.9PPG on 13MPG - he gets traded by Knicks fans too).

Essentially they had to go through 4 years of bad play to lay a foundation of team philosophy (and one could argue that didn't really kick in until 2 years after that), the right players, the right coach, etc.

This **** takes time.

Martin spot on. Patience wins the day.

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This sums up the 3 point defense by our bigs this season, just can't recover....All season long teams have taking full advantage when we have two 7" footers on the floor

This is exactly it. A major problem with the triangle philosophy of having two bigs on the floor at all times. It's killing us.

That's what you get out of the Triangle? That it requires 2 bigs on the floor and that's what's killing the Knicks?

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This sums up the 3 point defense by our bigs this season, just can't recover....All season long teams have taking full advantage when we have two 7" footers on the floor

This is exactly it. A major problem with the triangle philosophy of having two bigs on the floor at all times. It's killing us.

That's what you get out of the Triangle? That it requires 2 bigs on the floor and that's what's killing the Knicks?

You think that's not killing the Knicks? The Nets hit 13 of their first 16 threes the other night. The Knicks had two bigs on the floor. This is Rambis's defense, which goes by Phil's principals, which they have both said are set up by the principals of the Triangle spacing and the principal of having two bigs on the floor for rebounding. There are quotes about this. And, yes, I absolutely believe that is one of the fundamental issues with this team. They've looked pretty good on defense very recently when Willy was out with a sprained ankle and they had to play Melo/Lance/KP up front. Lance was mobile enough to close out on shooters.

I believe a team's offense and defense are connected. It's a symbiotic relationship - you can't talk about one without talking about the other. Basketball is a two-way sport - the lineup goes both ways at all times. The offense you run immediately impacts the defense and vice versa. I know you know this and I can't figure out for the life of me why this is a surprising statement to you.

I think the Knicks are giving minutes to guys so that they can give playing time - Willy with KP especially - not because the Triangle demands that Willy needs to play because the Knicks need 2 big men out there at all time.

yellowboy90 wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This sums up the 3 point defense by our bigs this season, just can't recover....All season long teams have taking full advantage when we have two 7" footers on the floor

This is exactly it. A major problem with the triangle philosophy of having two bigs on the floor at all times. It's killing us.

That's what you get out of the Triangle? That it requires 2 bigs on the floor and that's what's killing the Knicks?

You think that's not killing the Knicks? The Nets hit 13 of their first 16 threes the other night. The Knicks had two bigs on the floor. This is Rambis's defense, which goes by Phil's principals, which they have both said are set up by the principals of the Triangle spacing and the principal of having two bigs on the floor for rebounding. There are quotes about this. And, yes, I absolutely believe that is one of the fundamental issues with this team. They've looked pretty good on defense very recently when Willy was out with a sprained ankle and they had to play Melo/Lance/KP up front. Lance was mobile enough to close out on shooters.

I believe a team's offense and defense are connected. It's a symbiotic relationship - you can't talk about one without talking about the other. Basketball is a two-way sport - the lineup goes both ways at all times. The offense you run immediately impacts the defense and vice versa. I know you know this and I can't figure out for the life of me why this is a surprising statement to you.

I think the Knicks are giving minutes to guys so that they can give playing time - Willy with KP especially - not because the Triangle demands that Willy needs to play because the Knicks need 2 big men out there at all time.

So you can't play Willy as the back up Center to KP and not get Willy enough minutes?

Maybe the Knicks want to see what KP and Willy can do together? Maybe they want to see what Willy has against starters?

Outside of that, who cares?

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This sums up the 3 point defense by our bigs this season, just can't recover....All season long teams have taking full advantage when we have two 7" footers on the floor

This is exactly it. A major problem with the triangle philosophy of having two bigs on the floor at all times. It's killing us.

That's what you get out of the Triangle? That it requires 2 bigs on the floor and that's what's killing the Knicks?

You think that's not killing the Knicks? The Nets hit 13 of their first 16 threes the other night. The Knicks had two bigs on the floor. This is Rambis's defense, which goes by Phil's principals, which they have both said are set up by the principals of the Triangle spacing and the principal of having two bigs on the floor for rebounding. There are quotes about this. And, yes, I absolutely believe that is one of the fundamental issues with this team. They've looked pretty good on defense very recently when Willy was out with a sprained ankle and they had to play Melo/Lance/KP up front. Lance was mobile enough to close out on shooters.

I believe a team's offense and defense are connected. It's a symbiotic relationship - you can't talk about one without talking about the other. Basketball is a two-way sport - the lineup goes both ways at all times. The offense you run immediately impacts the defense and vice versa. I know you know this and I can't figure out for the life of me why this is a surprising statement to you.

I think the Knicks are giving minutes to guys so that they can give playing time - Willy with KP especially - not because the Triangle demands that Willy needs to play because the Knicks need 2 big men out there at all time.

So you can't play Willy as the back up Center to KP and not get Willy enough minutes?

Maybe the Knicks want to see what KP and Willy can do together? Maybe they want to see what Willy has against starters?

Outside of that, who cares?

I mean thats it. They are young. They are going to struggle defensively. Thats what young players do. IS there a better time for them to take their lumps? Willy cant guard Brook at the 3 point line? Of course he can. He needs to learn how to defend these guys, when to sag, when to help, when to switch.. Willy and KP are NBA babies. The Curry comparison is so key. Yes, Phil's moves have not been good but if you cant see a commitment to youth and development your just not looking. When we trade picks we cant talk about this disaster, but in the meantime I can be patient with what I see.

The system does not help willy at all, he can post numbers on any team. This is a small ball league, and the knicks and pelicans are the only teams trying to play big, and the result are comical. A big man is taught to protect the paint and rebound, not guard the perimeter.

Willy will probably be traded at some point, maybe not under phils watch, but certainly the next regime.

I just feel bad for JH who's has to pretend is the head coach

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This sums up the 3 point defense by our bigs this season, just can't recover....All season long teams have taking full advantage when we have two 7" footers on the floor

This is exactly it. A major problem with the triangle philosophy of having two bigs on the floor at all times. It's killing us.

That's what you get out of the Triangle? That it requires 2 bigs on the floor and that's what's killing the Knicks?

You think that's not killing the Knicks? The Nets hit 13 of their first 16 threes the other night. The Knicks had two bigs on the floor. This is Rambis's defense, which goes by Phil's principals, which they have both said are set up by the principals of the Triangle spacing and the principal of having two bigs on the floor for rebounding. There are quotes about this. And, yes, I absolutely believe that is one of the fundamental issues with this team. They've looked pretty good on defense very recently when Willy was out with a sprained ankle and they had to play Melo/Lance/KP up front. Lance was mobile enough to close out on shooters.

I believe a team's offense and defense are connected. It's a symbiotic relationship - you can't talk about one without talking about the other. Basketball is a two-way sport - the lineup goes both ways at all times. The offense you run immediately impacts the defense and vice versa. I know you know this and I can't figure out for the life of me why this is a surprising statement to you.

I think the Knicks are giving minutes to guys so that they can give playing time - Willy with KP especially - not because the Triangle demands that Willy needs to play because the Knicks need 2 big men out there at all time.

So you can't play Willy as the back up Center to KP and not get Willy enough minutes?

Maybe the Knicks want to see what KP and Willy can do together? Maybe they want to see what Willy has against starters?

Outside of that, who cares?

I mean thats it. They are young. They are going to struggle defensively. Thats what young players do. IS there a better time for them to take their lumps? Willy cant guard Brook at the 3 point line? Of course he can. He needs to learn how to defend these guys, when to sag, when to help, when to switch.. Willy and KP are NBA babies. The Curry comparison is so key. Yes, Phil's moves have not been good but if you cant see a commitment to youth and development your just not looking. When we trade picks we cant talk about this disaster, but in the meantime I can be patient with what I see.

The system does not help willy at all, he can post numbers on any team. This is a small ball league, and the knicks and pelicans are the only teams trying to play big, and the result are comical. A big man is taught to protect the paint and rebound, not guard the perimeter.

Willy will probably be traded at some point, maybe not under phils watch, but certainly the next regime.

I just feel bad for JH who's has to pretend is the head coach

This is such an oversimplification. San Antonio says hello. 7', 6'11", 6'8". Utah Jazz lineup is pretty big. Toronto starts Ibaka and Jonas Valanciunas. You find dominant players who mesh as a team and they will dominate. Right now the 3 or 4 best teams in the league don't have a ton of dominant big men but that doesn't mean big men can't dominate.

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:You gotta love NY Knick fans. Their God is telling them the system and organazation, Uncle Phil has been in charge of for last three years, is a Fuckin mess and you geniuses try to make it about something else. Specially love the guy who translated, direct quotes, into something about Melo. Just Epic. Maybe he can translate when KP said he would be lost without Melo. Probably meant he wants him released. We can keep saying losing Melo and Rose will change things but that's just for guys who have their heads up their asses. If you think ANYONE on this team respects or thinks Phil's plan is a good one, your in Knick denial.

As for our biggest issues. DEFENSE. Don't know if the basketball gurus on UK saw yesterday's game. Or any other game but we Gave up an amazing amount of 3's to the Flippin Nets. We have been out of position all year. KP cant play the 4 and Melo cant play the 3. Done, Finished that's it. The only defensive squad that played well all year is with Anyone at 5, Melo at 4 and LT at 3!! What a ****ing surprise. Problem is when KP has to defend strong shooting 4's, he is lost, and usually in foul trouble. No matter how fast we get rid of Rose (rather have a true PG) and Melo (turned into a fraction of the player he was by Uncle Phil and fan base) we will still have to deal with our next in line being too skinny to play 5 and too slow to.play 4. Willy only complicates this. As if he plays 5 you will be forced to continue to play KP at 4. And can't wait to see how important ball movement is when no one is double teaming Melo and it ends up in hands of some of the all star we have put together in the last 3 years.

But back to topic. This was a clear shot at the whole Uncle Phil experiment. It's his way of saying what everyone in the NBA already knows, except Knicks fan base, that everyone sees Uncle Phil as a joke, the triangle as a joke and this franchise as a joke. Simple enough? Oh but wait, forgot about the Phil supporters logic, he didn't give away a draft pick. Agree, but a guy in a coma that did nothing could have done the same. But without adding to the ever growing stereotype that the Knicks organazation is a clown show that no one wants to play for. Lmk if you need examples of the **** he has done. So unless we get LBJ2, this is just 2001 all over again. Except now we are more of a joke, don't have the big market cap advantage and have a system no one wants to play for. But at least we have Noah for 3 more years!

Somewhat harsh, but overall I agree. Also, Melo has been downed by age and injuries. He's still decent, but he definitely can't be the first or second scoring option on a team that wants to win.

Otherwise, hey it is what it is. Phil has to hit in the lotto this year and probably next year. If we have three blue chip lotto talents and Willy and a few other young guys and good contracts, we can be ready to think about making the playoffs. Imho, only at that point should we be trying to add free agent talent.

You want to hear harsh.....you should see what I paid for my share of season tickets to see this clown show. Lol. At least i didnt see the game where a guy, who poured his guts out for us, got thrown out by a fat little bastard, we call owner.

Imo, Melo is not our biggest worry. But really do hope he goes somewhere else though. This is just a bad situation for anyone.

stanleybostitch wrote:

martin wrote:
My guess is because that's what everyone has talked about: the Triangle and how bad it is, that's the emphasis, whereas the trend there seems to be getting better. And you are right, the defense is what's poor for the Knicks.

There are so many components to making a good team and executing it. Talent, health, cohesion, planning and commitment to it. How long does it take to get from piss poor to playoffs?

2014-15 was an obvious tear down year. You had Gallo and Larkin starting, LT and Bargs and Shved too. That's rock bottom. You get KP for that.

Unfortunately the Knicks didn't have a pick after the next year.

What is the expectation of a team that has 1 pick in 3 years? Seattle/OKC took 2 full years of Durant and Westbrook - 2 all world guys before they got out of the 30 win range.

Let's look at GS. Curry's first year was 2009-2010. 26 Wins. (2008-2009 they got 29 wins to GET the curry pick). 2010-2011 was a 36 win season and netted Thompson. 2011-12 they win 23 games. At this point Knicks fans would have traded both Curry and Thompson many times over. The next year they finally got out of the below .500 range for 47 wins (that was the year Green had an eFG% of .354 and averaged 2.9PPG on 13MPG - he gets traded by Knicks fans too).

Essentially they had to go through 4 years of bad play to lay a foundation of team philosophy (and one could argue that didn't really kick in until 2 years after that), the right players, the right coach, etc.

This **** takes time.

Martin spot on. Patience wins the day.

I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.

So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.

For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Positionally KP is a player who has not shown his defined position yet. The team has protected him because of his lack of power to play 5 because they don't want him being pushed around under the basket. So they've done the right thing. It has nothing to do with the Triangle, when KP came to the league it was clear his lack of power would hinder him from playing 5 full time. He has to add weight, but strength base. When he does that he want get rooted out or pushed around in the post.

I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.

So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.

For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.

Agree with most. Problem going forward is that Willy is a better 5 than KP. And KP cant defend stretch 4's. It was a joke when he was guarding Harris the other night. KP is obviously a much bigger impact on offense but where do you start him if your main goal is to have a better defensive unit? And as good as Willy can be, do you leave him as a back up to KP long term?

This is not a forgone conclusion is it? I don't know too many 2 second year players - especially with the underdeveloped body that KP has - that are complete defenders. Took Bruce Bowen like 10 years in the league before he was good. Was Kobe good in his first 2 years? No he was a jump shooting punk. Draymond Green was even WORSE than KP in all aspects of his game in his first 2 years than KP.

Patience and watch it grow.