We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.

From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.

However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.

Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at C

Come on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.

Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.

Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.

Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.

My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.

Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.

nyknickzingis wrote:Phil could have gotten more for Shump/Smith/Chandler.
That I agree with.

From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.

However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.

Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at C

Come on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.

Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.

Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.

Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.

My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.

Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.

This is a good post. I agree completely.

The mystery is why this mix didn't work. The answer is some combination of Melo, Rose, Hornacek, and Phil.

I think we're all tired of the blame game, it's pointless. Hopefully Phil moves on from Rose (of all the trades he's made, I think Rose for Rubio would've been by far his best... I hope there's some chance of revisiting a sign and trade in the summer, but who really knows).

I think we do need to just move on from Melo at this point... but who the heck knows if Melo will see it that way. The best fit still seems to be the Clippers. Hopefully Melo is frustrated enough to just let it go this off-season... he only has one more year under contract (before his option year, at least). He has a home in LA, he can find plenty of business opportunities in LA, Lala should be able to get more TV work in LA. At this rate, I think it'll happen.

Once Melo and Rose are gone, I am fine trying to do a ground up transformation into a Spurs-type model. We have some building blocks there and more importantly we finally have all our picks for the foreseeable future (and for that, I do thank Phil). Go for a slow build. Phil has messed up when he's tried to acquire a veteran. He's done better with undrafted guards learning his system in Westchester and then coming to the big leagues - Galloway, Baker, Randle all look like better fits for what Phil wants to do than Jennings or Rose.

Anyway, hopefully we get a nice top 6 pick, it'd be amazing to jump up into the top 3 somehow. I agree with Briggs that they should try to find the Seth Curry types in FA. How much different would this season have been if the Knicks gave Seth Curry $5M instead of Jennings? And I'll cop to wanting to give Jennings a look, but man the wheels came off on Jennings after a solid first month.

The only thing I'll say is that I'm not sure Hornacek is the right coach going forward. But this season is not fair to judge him on. He should get all of next year. Heck, I'd be fine with him getting two more full years - we have the lotto picks. I really think we need high quality picks in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 draft to really build the depth you need to contend. Look at Boston - no real superstars, but a deep deep team that fits together and can match up pretty well with the Cavs and Warriors. That's what we should aim to build, then maybe try to sign a star or two with cap room. If we have a good young team like Boston, stars will come to NY. But we don't have that depth now. We really need a few years to build it up. Like Milwaukee is in the process of doing with Giannis, Brogdon, Parker, etc.

nixluva wrote:BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Rehashing this past stuff is pure nonsense. Who freaking cares about any of that now? IMO there's before KP and there's after KP!!! Anything before KP is MOOT! We've moved on and have a new focus beginning to develop.

We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.

So what there responding for 2 or 3 quarters, they suck so bad in the 4th quarter, and that goes for the entire team and the coach. I couldn't believe rose had damn near a perfect game last night, melo took 13 shots giving other players the chance to shine, and they did nothing, and willy had 6 turnovers, but all I read is rose this and melo that as if they were the reason we keep losing.

Rose is playing for rose.

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Phil could have gotten more for Shump/Smith/Chandler.
That I agree with.

From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.

However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.

Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at C

Come on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.

Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.

Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.

Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.

My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.

Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.

This is a good post. I agree completely.

The mystery is why this mix didn't work. The answer is some combination of Melo, Rose, Hornacek, and Phil.

I think we're all tired of the blame game, it's pointless. Hopefully Phil moves on from Rose (of all the trades he's made, I think Rose for Rubio would've been by far his best... I hope there's some chance of revisiting a sign and trade in the summer, but who really knows).

I think we do need to just move on from Melo at this point... but who the heck knows if Melo will see it that way. The best fit still seems to be the Clippers. Hopefully Melo is frustrated enough to just let it go this off-season... he only has one more year under contract (before his option year, at least). He has a home in LA, he can find plenty of business opportunities in LA, Lala should be able to get more TV work in LA. At this rate, I think it'll happen.

Once Melo and Rose are gone, I am fine trying to do a ground up transformation into a Spurs-type model. We have some building blocks there and more importantly we finally have all our picks for the foreseeable future (and for that, I do thank Phil). Go for a slow build. Phil has messed up when he's tried to acquire a veteran. He's done better with undrafted guards learning his system in Westchester and then coming to the big leagues - Galloway, Baker, Randle all look like better fits for what Phil wants to do than Jennings or Rose.

Anyway, hopefully we get a nice top 6 pick, it'd be amazing to jump up into the top 3 somehow. I agree with Briggs that they should try to find the Seth Curry types in FA. How much different would this season have been if the Knicks gave Seth Curry $5M instead of Jennings? And I'll cop to wanting to give Jennings a look, but man the wheels came off on Jennings after a solid first month.

The only thing I'll say is that I'm not sure Hornacek is the right coach going forward. But this season is not fair to judge him on. He should get all of next year. Heck, I'd be fine with him getting two more full years - we have the lotto picks. I really think we need high quality picks in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 draft to really build the depth you need to contend. Look at Boston - no real superstars, but a deep deep team that fits together and can match up pretty well with the Cavs and Warriors. That's what we should aim to build, then maybe try to sign a star or two with cap room. If we have a good young team like Boston, stars will come to NY. But we don't have that depth now. We really need a few years to build it up. Like Milwaukee is in the process of doing with Giannis, Brogdon, Parker, etc.

Both of these posts are awesome. Jeff deserves time. This year had mixed agendas. Win now but at the same time young players need development. There's no way to sugar coat it. Rose and Melo even if you like them underperformed relative to their contract. If you assume you got 30 mill of value but paid 40+ that's a huge hit. That extra 10 mill could equate to a max player rather than clee

Then you add Noah. Jeff had a tough job. If I were boss I'd give him more time w a more straight forward mission. Play the right way and accountability. The wins and points will take care of themselves

The way Melo plays is a DISGRACE. Wearing a Knicks jersey should mother f@@king mean something. It should mean dignity, honor, commitment, leadership, devotion to a team and to winning.

smackeddog wrote:I don't hate Hornacek, but not hiring Thibs was the move I hate the most out of Phil's tenure here. He wanted to come here, We have Rose and Noah, Melo wanted him, we needed to become better defensively, and he would have had us committed to playing the style Knick fans love. He's finally getting the Twolves to buy in and start playing good defense the last 10 games, I would have loved to have had him for our coach. Hornacek just seems like a eager to please kid in comparison.

nyknickzingis wrote:

Nalod wrote:At some point you have understand phil is not the coach and the on court talent has to be held accountable.
At some point one has to say Melo is both a detriment to winning while he racks up points. A mans heart cannot be measured when he signed a contract.

Rose is playing for rose.

That it is in a nutshell.
Phil got the team talent. Maybe the first and second year the talent was questionable, but not this past season. This team was loaded with Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Noah, Jennings, Thomas, O'Quinn, Willy. Come on we had enough to be a competitive .500 team at worst. The fact is many thought Rose wouldn't be healthy and based on that thought the team would win 38-40 games. Rose has been healthy and himself.

The 9 players u mention above were never put in a Knicks game rotation ..
Plus Phil had a lot to do with Fisher/Rambis/and Horn coaching for reason of a inexperienced raw KP being in the starter lineup. Plus for success veteran players belong in the starter lineup when u have a tandem of isolation players in Melo & Rose type of offense in a lineup .. our starter lineup should have been "Noah/Quinn/Melo/Sasha/Rose" our 2nd unit lineup "Jennings/Lee/Holiday/Willie/KP". Why?
The Knicks started the 2016-17 season with 10 new players added to the roster, which mean the Knicks should have started the season using a 11 man rotation having 2 unit lineup throughout their first 25 games to get players chemistry n confidence in teammates.
The Knicks started the season coaching without team discipline, without a team plan on offense/defense (man on Man are a street-ball plan), Team balling were not in the Knicks performance the results has the Knicks being the 8th team in the league to lose their 40th game.

KP is unable to stay with quick athletic 4's and Willy is not a good anchor, Melo is horrible as a 3 defensively. We showed it in the last 2 games. We cannot defend with this lineup. Why are we playing this lineup ahead of KP/Melo/Thomas lineup that was showing it could compete with Golden Sate?

I like Willy a ton, he's one of faves on the team, but his role should be off a Vucevic/Kanter off the bench. Goood low post scoring big who comes off the bench, not particularly good at defending the rim.

Horny needs to be far more consistent next year with his rotations. I hated his constant changing of roles this year.