nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:So the

Magic
Lakers
Sixers

All of have been bad for a number of years in a row, tanked hard, got high draft picks.

And where are they now?

They will be in a better position than the Knicks give it time.

Maybe
Or maybe we will be.

This is not an exact science

You guys acting like we are some perennial playoff team with a playoff top seed locked up. The Knicks aren't but two three games from those teams.

Yes but part of the issue was LT being hurt. He really is a key component to this team. Now that he's fully healthy you can see how much he impacts the team. We need players like LT and now Baker to help cover up for the poor defense of Melo and Rose. LT and Baker help to glue the defense together. That makes our other decent defenders that much better. These other teams are actually worse than the Knicks when the Knicks are at full strength and playing together as they have the last few games.

The Knicks have been able to score but the lack of defense has been the main reason for so many CLOSE losses. We must lead the league in close losses!!! Now this team is able to get a few more stops a game and it make a lot of difference.

Don't forget to add C.Lee in with LT and Baker when you're talking about the guys playing defense and add J.Holiday in there to but C.Lee has been playing really good defense these last few games.

Vmart wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:So the

Magic
Lakers
Sixers

All of have been bad for a number of years in a row, tanked hard, got high draft picks.

And where are they now?

They will be in a better position than the Knicks give it time.

Maybe
Or maybe we will be.

This is not an exact science

You guys acting like we are some perennial playoff team with a playoff top seed locked up. The Knicks aren't but two three games from those teams.

Hornachek is coming back next year and we have a young player in Kristaps who I'm sure the team wants to develop into a franchise player. You can't overlook the importance of that. KP had a good game last night. He led the team in scoring and led them to a WIN. Do we want a young player like KP to have good games and lose every time? What does that do to his confidence? You should have seen his look during the time the Knicks lose. It wears on. Not everyone is built like Melo. Melo could lose every year, and every game and still be Melo. Drop his points, be great individually. Some players hate to lose, and it truly has negative consequences.

If Phil wanted to tank, he needed to find a taker for Kristaps and also Melo. So long as the two of them are on the team, you could put D League talent around them, and they would still compete hard enough to win some games. You do not see talent like KP and Melo on teams like Magic or other teams tanking.

We hate on Phil because he doesn't get the job done and yet also hate on him for having talent like Melo and KP who have enough impact that the team will win 40 percent of their games always? Come on guys. Teams that tank don't have talent like KP and Melo. Factor we have Rose as well, it's nor realistic to lose every single game.

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

I'm a big believer in KP but God test it. He's not one of the best nba players-- he takes bad shots and doesn't know what a pass is among other things. I like parts of his game his attitude and his potential but he is NOT one of the nabs best players

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

I'm a big believer in KP but God test it. He's not one of the best nba players-- he takes bad shots and doesn't know what a pass is among other things. I like parts of his game his attitude and his potential but he is NOT one of the nabs best players

KP in a night when he clearly was winded and not in full game shape yet still put up 20/9/2 assists. He's just scratching the surface of what he can be. When KP matures and is getting 20+ shots a night he will be in a different place. We're fortunate to have him and even Willy gives us some real hope cuz he also has upside.

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

I'm a big believer in KP but God test it. He's not one of the best nba players-- he takes bad shots and doesn't know what a pass is among other things. I like parts of his game his attitude and his potential but he is NOT one of the nabs best players

No one is addressing my main points.

#1 Did Phil really have a shot at trading Melo and KP over the deadline?
#2 Assuming we keep KP and Melo how do we realistically tank?

People say shut them down. You can't make up injuries and shut down players. Come on.

The Knicks have an all-star in Melo, a top 5 rising star in the league in KP. You can not tank with those kinds of players. Maybe if we traded one of KP or Melo, especially Melo. Now that it didn't happen, guys be realistic. Teams with KP/Melo level talent can not win 1 in 10 games a sustained period of time. It's virtually impossible.

And here's another thing. If we could in fact play KP big minutes and lose every one of those games, what does that say about KP as an impact player? It would mean KP has little impact on the outcome of a game. I love that KP had a good game and the team won. The last thing I want is a team with a young star like KP putting up good/great numbers and losing all the time. It literally means that the player has little impact on the end result.

We want to build and groom young players into winners. Go ask the Lakers, Magic or Sixers how far ahead they are in terms of player development and getting their young guys to learn how to play winning basketball. Those teams draft in the lottery every year and still 4 years into their careers of the young players, don't even come close to the playoffs. Is that good for their development? I think it's great for young players to be part of a team that is expected to win, make the playoffs and there is expectation. The pressure is on these players to do something now, not 3 years from now. I like that about the Knicks situation.

Whomever we draft this summer will have no different expectation than KP. Make the playoffs. Be competitive immediately. Not like Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid who get pats on the back for playing 30 good games a year.

nyknickzingis wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

I'm a big believer in KP but God test it. He's not one of the best nba players-- he takes bad shots and doesn't know what a pass is among other things. I like parts of his game his attitude and his potential but he is NOT one of the nabs best players

Who said he is one of the NBA's best?
But clearly he adds value.
You can play d-leaguers with KP and Melo, and they will still win games.

No one is addressing my main points.

#1 Did Phil really have a shot at trading Melo and KP over the deadline?
#2 Assuming we keep KP and Melo how do we realistically tank?

People say shut them down. You can't make up injuries and shut down players. Come on.

The Knicks have an all-star in Melo, a top 5 rising star in the league in KP. You can not tank with those kinds of players. Maybe if we traded one of KP or Melo, especially Melo. Now that it didn't happen, guys be realistic. Teams with KP/Melo level talent can not win 1 in 10 games a sustained period of time. It's virtually impossible.

And here's another thing. If we could in fact play KP big minutes and lose every one of those games, what does that say about KP as an impact player? It would mean KP has little impact on the outcome of a game. I love that KP had a good game and the team won. The last thing I want is a team with a young star like KP putting up good/great numbers and losing all the time. It literally means that the player has little impact on the end result.

We want to build and groom young players into winners. Go ask the Lakers, Magic or Sixers how far ahead they are in terms of player development and getting their young guys to learn how to play winning basketball. Those teams draft in the lottery every year and still 4 years into their careers of the young players, don't even come close to the playoffs. Is that good for their development? I think it's great for young players to be part of a team that is expected to win, make the playoffs and there is expectation. The pressure is on these players to do something now, not 3 years from now. I like that about the Knicks situation.

Whomever we draft this summer will have no different expectation than KP. Make the playoffs. Be competitive immediately. Not like Ben Simmons or Joel Embiid who get pats on the back for playing 30 good games a year.

What have the Knicks been doing that has been so awesome. You keep saying look at the Lakers the Magic and Sixers. Lakers are coming off a decade of winning championships. Their all time great just retired. They are in rebuild mode. It's just a matter of experience before they are right back. The Sixers are have been bad as long as the Knicks but their approach has them with upside players who in a couple of years will be playoff bound with upside.

What do the Knicks have? But KP and Willie other than that there is nothing around them that screams upside. Melo is one dimensional and just good enough to keep the Knicks from getting better and bad enough not to advance past a first round or worse good enough to keep us from top pick and bad enough for no playoffs. Either case we lose out. Rose is a grumpy has been who is a disgruntled member of the Knicks. They are good enough from keeping you from being really bad and bad enough to land you in the worst lottery spot.

I can't get past how stupid this team is. It's getting harder and harder to root for these morons.

nixluva wrote:The only way to have nearly guaranteed a high pick is if Phil was able to trade Melo or at least moved Rose but even that might not have been enough if we still had Melo! The reason is this team still has enough talent to win games with a healthy LT and Baker taking BJ's minutes. KP, Willy, CLee, Holiday, KOQ etc all play hard. As long as we have Melo it makes it hard to Tank like these other teams!

The Trade Deadline was the turning point for making sure the Tank was locked in. Phil wasn't able to make any deals for whatever reason. So here we are stuck in the middle. Now they pretty much have to go for the playoffs cuz they're gonna have some winnable games coming up. No way they don't win some of these games and take themselves out of a prime lottery spot. Just gotta hope for the best.

I know the plan was to win. That pisses me off more. They threw the beginning of the season away and now they are trying to win. Which makes matters even worse.

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:this thread doesnt get made if Knicks lose to Orl

There is no reality here

The problem is the Knicks are playing better! It's not a fluke that they won. This team always had the ability to win games if they simply defended better and lately the D has improved. LT being healthy makes a MASSIVE difference and now that Baker is taking BJ's minutes that's even more defense!

The schedule is not tough enough to prevent this team from winning enough games to get back into the playoffs. Nothing is guaranteed but they have a legit shot to get back in. THIS IS VERY REAL.

What the original poster is saying is "Who gives a F if we make the playoffs". I would say we were in position the other night to play the youngins and sit Carmelo rest of year and have a LEGIT chance VETY legit chance at @ #5 pick or better. I guarantee were going to lose that now and the end result is just like the OP said--we lose.

We were never gonna get a top 5 pick...NEVER. there's more than 4 teams that are worse than we are without a doubt.

The teams at 4 and 5 (Sixers and Magic) have a record of 22-38, we have a record of 25-36, if we'd lost the games (think we play Magic twice and Sixers 3 times)vs these teams, we'd be at 4 or 5. you then have good chance of moving up higher in the lottery.

CrushAlot wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I mean name me a single team that had talent like Melo/KP together that loses 90% of their games. It just doesn't happen. We are way too talented at the top to be that bad. It's part of the whole Melo conundrum. It's why Phil went after Rose and Noah/Lee. He saw a team that had enough talent on paper with KP/Melo to win 30 games. So add some vets who have won wherever they have played in the past (like Rose/Noah/Lee) and maybe you can push it to 45 and make a playoff run. It didn't work out.

Even if Phil had found takers for Rose and Lee, we would still be competitive so long as KP and Melo were on the team. The problem is just that. Melo and KP alone make this team 30 wins good (at minimum). Take away KP maybe we drop to 25. Take away Melo, we can drop to 20. Not a single tanking team has the Melo/KP combo of talent. So be realistic. Tell me how we tank, while also realizing Melo has a NTC and KP is a young star who you want to develop into a franchise player, who is giving you 18-20 points a night (and KP is super competitive).

The year the Knicks added Tyson the Knicks winning percentage was almost identical to what it is now while D'Antoni was coaching. Amare, Tyson and Melo at that point was arguably the best front line in the nba at the time.

BRIGGS wrote:We could've rested Carmelo and released Rose-- that's what I would've done.

We won't make the playoffs. While we will have a good run due to "tanking" the last 20-- that applies to the 4 teams ahead of us Miami is clearly clearly better than us and have 3 games on us with 20 to-- again that doesn't include Detroit which us 4 on us. We going to end up at the end of the day out of the playoffs with a draft position that will be much worse than it could've been.