mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

OK! First of all you completely missed my point. I said that Rose SET UP the offseason because we NEEDED to improve at PG more than anything else. Conley was the other top option. GOT THAT? So the deal for Rose solved that need. The Trade opened up the C spot so that they could offer that to Noah, who in turn helped to recruit Lee. That is pretty much the most important part of the summer. We now have a Balanced and Complete Starting Five. Rose, Lee, Melo, KP and Noah. That is what I was saying. Point Guard was the part that was hardest to get and so trading for Rose solved that problem and the rest could all fall into place. In terms of team building having Rose, Melo and KP was the key part of the summer. Everything after that was in support of that group, including Jennings. LOGIC!!!

wierd Logic ... sounded more like an opinion.

We needed a PG, yes. What we did not need is to make a stupid starphuck trade.

You think it was a good move, I don't ... done.

Jackson said he and Mills considered chasing a point guard in free agency. They ended up going to Plan B, acquiring Rose and Justin Holiday from Chicago for Jose Calderon, Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant.

“It was really a Plan A,” Jackson said.

Without Rose, the Knicks might not have gotten Noah and Lee or even Jennings.

Noah said he probably wouldn’t have entertained the Knicks if they didn’t have Rose, his former Bulls teammate. Lee said Noah helped recruit him to the Knicks and that he wanted to play with Rose. Jennings said he’s excited about playing against one of the best point guards in practice.

“The initial beginning of this started with the trade for Derrick Rose,” Jackson said. “That kind of accentuated how we are going to approach this free- agent year, the direction that we wanted to head towards.”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/how-acquiring-derrick-rose-shaped-knicks-plans-this-offseason-1.12024425

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

I added the Eastern Conference Odds above. I think this is GREAT news to be honest. The Knicks have moved up significantly. To be crying about whether they're contenders seems to miss the improvement entirely. You have to be in it to even have a chance and the Knicks have a chance.

CrushAlot wrote:

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martin wrote:

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shinmen wrote:

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nixluva wrote:

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nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

http://www.sportsline.com/insiders/25625086/how-much-better-are-the-knicks-with-rose-and-noah/

I think that this is before the jennings and Lee moves.

mreinman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

http://www.sportsline.com/insiders/25625086/how-much-better-are-the-knicks-with-rose-and-noah/

I think that this is before the jennings and Lee moves.

I find this very interesting. They REALLY don't like Rose, but it's based on his horrid season.

NEW YORK KNICKS W/ ROSE-NOAH
 	                WIN	PLAYOFF%    CONFERENCE
Before Rose/Noah	37.0	23.2%	    10th
with Rose	        33.2	9.4%	    11th
with Rose/Noah	        35.2	19.6%	    10th
Rose/Noah impact	-1.8	-3.6%	    --

IMO I think the flaw in this is that it can't take into proper context WHY Rose played poorly and what playing in a Contract Year could mean to him. Most players will give you their best in a contract year. It's simply not logical that Rose will not come into this season an improved player Physically and Skills wise. Also he's not coming off of Orbital Fracture Surgery. On top of that there's the better talent he's going to have around him. Purely going off the numbers seems a bit flawed IMO.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

I added the Eastern Conference Odds above. I think this is GREAT news to be honest. The Knicks have moved up significantly. To be crying about whether they're contenders seems to miss the improvement entirely. You have to be in it to even have a chance and the Knicks have a chance.

bull. ****. the rose trade jerked the knicks into win-now mode, yes or no

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Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

I added the Eastern Conference Odds above. I think this is GREAT news to be honest. The Knicks have moved up significantly. To be crying about whether they're contenders seems to miss the improvement entirely. You have to be in it to even have a chance and the Knicks have a chance.

bull. ****. the rose trade jerked the knicks into win-now mode, yes or no

I think you're confusing knick trades of the past.....This year we have a GM who either knows how or got lucky, but able to build a team that competes now and later. Thats a difficult thing to do, and it takes luck, like landing KP and all the young internationals. If we traded for Rose and gave him a 4 yr contract, then yes....it's win now. But take a step back....whats wrong with KP being on a solid team that wins now? Isn't that how the Spurs run their farm system? I'm sure they don't tank and wait for high draft picks (wait they did that with Duncan)...They allow their winning culture to help guide the rookies. Similar to what Phil is planning to do with KP. This year Rose, next year CP? who knows. But this year Rose has the PG job to lose. I think he wants that pay check, so he will play hard.....which is good for us.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

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mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

I added the Eastern Conference Odds above. I think this is GREAT news to be honest. The Knicks have moved up significantly. To be crying about whether they're contenders seems to miss the improvement entirely. You have to be in it to even have a chance and the Knicks have a chance.

bull. ****. the rose trade jerked the knicks into win-now mode, yes or no

It depends on how you look at it. The Knicks have three guys in their starting line up who are locked up for a few years that are 30, 31, and 32. But they also have four and possibly five rookies on their roster, a first and two second rounders next year, and a 21 year old unicorn. If they brought back Afflalo and kept Jose they still have three guys over 30 as starters.

You know what I wonder about? What exactly were guys who are down on this roster expecting? The end result is a fairly balanced roster that makes sense together. No major holes in this roster. Good amount of Vets and Youth. Upside is still very high for this team. Young guys like Willy, Kuz, Chasson Randle, Baker and Mo Ndour are very intriguing young players. We have a new coach who actually has great ideas. Vegas says the Knicks are improved. It's so hard to put a great roster together in today's NBA. We had ONE 1st rd PICK!!! There's only so much you can do. We're going into year 3 with a team that has only 7 teams ranked ahead of them for the Title.

I don't get it.

Blame it on Trump.....Nobody wants to use the eye test anymore. And everybody wants to spread hate. It's all about creating a wall between pessimistic and optemistic fans. Why can't someone be pro Black Lives Matter and pro Blue Lives Matter?

No seriously, everybody has their own opinion. The harder you try, the worst it gets. It's like quick sand.....Stop wasting your time trying to convince pessimistic fans. Even if we won a championship, theres always one person that has something else to say.....Thats why we play the game. This is just pre season stuff, to build up for the real season. Thats when the real pages start to fly (I told you so....Rose is....Naoh hurt again.....KP needs the ball.....too much iso Melo.....) Right now, its all about opinions and NYers are the most stubborn fans in the NBA.

I think the knicks will have a great season....Stay healthy. Some believe they will not be healthy, and have a bad season.

I think Rose is mature enough to play like a normal PG. Others disagree.... Oh well. Respec their opinion and move on! I'm sure both sides will man up during the season, when we finally have stats to chew on.

dk7th wrote:

blkexec wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.

This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.

So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!

Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.

WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.

If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.

Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!

Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.

GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.

The Spurs biggest deal was landing Duncan and having great scouting on Parker and Ginobili. Then drafting Kawhi. The Spurs are a great organization but lets not overstate Advance Stats being the reason they've been so successful. It's the garnish on the plate and not the Steak.

Let's hope the Knicks have struck GOLD with KP. If he can be our Duncan or Dirk, then that's the real key for them to have long term success. You've gotta start with that franchise player you can build around. This roster should be a very interesting test of KP's potential over the next few years. He'll be surrounded with legit talent. I guarantee there will be some higher Win Shares this year.

Of course you need to get lucky but you also need to be as smart as possible. So far (not judging this year yet) phil has made deals that mostly look pretty stupid. He has shown that he was pretty much ignoring any advanced stats and relying on his ego which is very not Spurs like and not like the way most teams are operating today.

I like the Jennings move. Low risk high reward, I am wary but semi positive of the Noah move but I am biased because he is one of my favorite players of all time. I think the Rose move was plain stupid and many of you are all in which I get ... The Lee move was ok especially in this crazy market.

People forget that we lost D Williams who was one of our best players and by far our best in the open court.

Rose failing here is not an option. People say that if he sucks we don't sign him. Big deal. It is a big deal because we gave up to valuable assets for him. And I know ... Rolo may be a good WS48 player but he failed many of you guys brilliant eye test.

So in a nutshell, I am ok with this offseasons moves other than Rose which I am very much against. I think that the knicks can win 40-45 games and the pressure is all on Phil and Rose. If Rose sucks / does not produce then Phil has to go.

All that matters to me is that Phil has managed to put together a nice roster. This roster is a major improvement IMO. It should be pretty fun to watch this team come together.

I'm not worrying about Rose somehow not producing. I expect him to be an improvement for this team. Why should we think Rose is not going to help this team? I know what his stats looked like. The thing is we're not just going to ignore the fact that he got elbowed in the eye and had to have surgery. We know for a fact that it impacted him. Once he got over that he started to show his real talent level. That's who we should be expecting to see this year. That player can help this team win games.

I know you're not worried, you never actually worry jk ...

being an improvement is not nearly enough. We gave up valuable assets for him so his improvement better be worth those assets.

I am betting that he won't be nearly good enough but I'm also betting that some of you will sugar coat the sh1t out of it.

Wait what Phil did was restructure the entire Starting Lineup and you don't think it was totally worth it? The Rose deal set up the entire offseason!!! What else are assets for if not to use them to improve your team?

I'm pretty sure there will be no need to sugarcoat next season. Why should we need to do that? It's not like we had someone better to look forward to if Phil doesn't do the deal. IMO Phil had to take this shot. It was a smart gamble. We liked the players we gave up but what Phil was able to do was build a team that was more potent and made much more sense together.

You can't look at this roster and not see the opportunity and possibilities if things go right. It's well worth the risk IMO. A MOTIVATED Rose could be just what this team needs. With Rose and Jennings we have elusive guards that can create and draw attention! That should help everyone else get better looks. It should also help make defenses have to work harder.

The Rose move was just one move. It did not "set up the entire offseason", what it did was start out the offseason with a booboo gamble.

OH COME ON!!! The Rose deal most certainly set up the entire offseason. You can't get away with that one! I don't even know how you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't admit even that much.

The Rose deal was the key to the whole thing. Rose, Melo and KP! Noah sees the Knicks move RoLo and he knows he's got a shot to fill that spot. The only hole left in the SL is SG and Lee is courted to join his friends. It all fell into place.

So Noah, Jennings and Lee don't come here without us having already signed Rose? I don't buy it but keep drinking. Noah and Lee took the cash while jennings CERTAINLY comes here if Rose does not.

The knicks signing rose also got me a discount on my car insurance

You are losing it or perhaps you are the one drinking!

Along with Rose, the Knicks will get Justin Holiday and a 2017 second round draft pick. The Knicks are sending Robin Lopez, Jose Calderon and Jerian Grant to the Bulls.

The Rose deal opened up a starting Center spot for Noah!

Lee’s deal with the Knicks “would not have happened without Joakim Noah,” a source close to Lee told Begley. Lee had several offers to decide from and chose New York in part because of Noah’s recruitment.

“Courtney understands what playing for the New York Knicks means,” the source said. “He wanted to play in New York and Joakim Noah was instrumental in recruiting him. Would not have happened without Joakim. Courtney couldn’t be more excited.”

ah so we are getting warmer ... Lee came for Noah but Noah coming for Rose? Can you please repost that? Perhaps without any slippery inferences that don't work.

WTF are you rambling on about? We TRADED for Rose, sending RoLo out and opened up a spot for Noah. What is it that you can't understand about that? It all worked to perfection.

Ah ... so lets break that down for simplification ... we needed to get rid of Lopez (a very valuable contract) to sign Noah? Ok ... I am following ... WTFFFFFF does that have to do with needing to get derrik fukking rose????

breaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaath .... ok I'm back ... are you saying that the only way to get rid of Lopez was to take on Rose?

Following?

You're raving and ranting is nonsensical. Trading for Rose set up the offseason PERIOD! We needed a better PG and we moved RoLo to improve the PG spot which was a bigger need. We didn't NEED RoLo as much as we needed a PG!!! This opens up the spot for Noah etc. Now we have a balanced roster.

you have such a hard time breaking things down from mush ... so now you flipped it, not sure if on purpose though.

back to my point, Rose did not open it all up for us, he was a move that they made that many disagreed with and they did not need this move to get any of the other players. I don't believe Noah turns down that deal if Rose is not here and I am not sure that Noah is even better than Rolo at this point in his career but I am a huge fan so I will drink the koolaid a bit on that one.

Btw, vegas (who of course you always disagree with/know better than) had us at a higher chance of making the playoffs before the Rose/Noah move that after. Perhaps they were worried that A. Brooks was a much better PG for the bulls than he was.

I have to ask about the Vegas odds? I am not a gambler and I don't follow the odds other than in a main stream fashion when they are put out by espn. Were the odds set for 2017 before the nba offseason? Also, the one article that I read had the Knicks chance of winning a title decreasing but their odds of winning the eastern conference improved with the offseason additions. According to this article they passed 7 teams. Could the odds of winning the finals possibly be worse because the Warriors added Durant?http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

I know you are busy having a two way conversation but can you please address your Vegas statement that you made without a link? I can't find anything to back up what you posted.

I don't know where he got that but this is what I found from ESPN:

Odds are current as of Sept. 5.
2017 NBA Title Odds
TEAM	                OPENING ODDS	UPDATED ODDS
Golden State Warriors	3-2	        5-7
Cleveland Cavaliers	5-2	        5-2
San Antonio Spurs	6-1	        6-1
Los Angeles Clippers	16-1	        20-1
Boston Celtics	        20-1	        25-1
Oklahoma City Thunder	8-1	        30-1
Toronto Raptors	        25-1	        40-1
Minnesota Timberwolves	60-1	        80-1
Atlanta Hawks	        40-1	        80-1
Portland Trail Blazers	60-1	        80-1
Utah Jazz	        80-1	        80-1
Chicago Bulls	        40-1	        80-1
New York Knicks	        100-1	        80-1
New Orleans Pelicans	60-1	        100-1
Miami Heat	        25-1	        100-1
Houston Rockets	        60-1	        100-1
Memphis Grizzlies	80-1	        100-1
Indiana Pacers	        100-1	        100-1
Detroit Pistons	        100-1	        100-1
Washington Wizards	100-1	        100-1
Milwaukee Bucks	        100-1	        100-1
Orlando Magic	        100-1	        100-1
Philadelphia 76ers	100-1	        300-1
Charlotte Hornets	80-1	        300-1
Los Angeles Lakers	100-1	        300-1
Dallas Mavericks	100-1	        300-1
Sacramento Kings	100-1	        300-1
Denver Nuggets	        100-1	        300-1
Phoenix Suns	        300-1	        1000-1
Brooklyn Nets	        500-1	        1000-1

http://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/16176731/nba-2017-nba-title-odds-westgate-las-vegas-superbook

sadly this places the knicks way far away from being contenders. interesting that the celtics are ahead of the raptors and the thunder are that high. and the pacers are ranked too low.

I added the Eastern Conference Odds above. I think this is GREAT news to be honest. The Knicks have moved up significantly. To be crying about whether they're contenders seems to miss the improvement entirely. You have to be in it to even have a chance and the Knicks have a chance.

bull. ****. the rose trade jerked the knicks into win-now mode, yes or no

I think you're confusing knick trades of the past.....This year we have a GM who either knows how or got lucky, but able to build a team that competes now and later. Thats a difficult thing to do, and it takes luck, like landing KP and all the young internationals. If we traded for Rose and gave him a 4 yr contract, then yes....it's win now. But take a step back....whats wrong with KP being on a solid team that wins now? Isn't that how the Spurs run their farm system? I'm sure they don't tank and wait for high draft picks (wait they did that with Duncan)...They allow their winning culture to help guide the rookies. Similar to what Phil is planning to do with KP. This year Rose, next year CP? who knows. But this year Rose has the PG job to lose. I think he wants that pay check, so he will play hard.....which is good for us.

lets start with kp6: that was not luck by any stretch. that was the work of clarence gaines, who told jackson it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. as the executive, jackson did the right thing in heeding his trusted advisor. that was smart.

rose, according to you and others, is playing for a contract, and nobody knows what impact that will have to his approach to his role on the team. so again, it is by no means certain the knicks and kp6 are a solid team. the projected win total is mid- to upper-30s. that's not solid by any stretch.

the spurs success stemmed from their drafting of one of the top players of all time, and working from there. the knicks should be doing the same thing with kp6 as the spurs did with duncan, which is recast the team *around* kp6. take a trip down memory lane... it's eye-opening:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1998.html

as you can see, there was zero coddling with duncan, who played the most minutes and took the most shots.

What is wrong with putting a vet team around KP? As I've said before the big 3 is Rose, Melo and KP, so KP IS GOING GET SHOTS AND BE FEATURED!!!

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

shinmen wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

mreinman wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.

That's the bottom line for this team.

I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.

Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.

Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.

Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.

Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound Offense

An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.

Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.

I'm waiting to see that . . .

Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.

I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.

For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.

What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.

Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....

1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, Willy

The bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).

you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.

I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.

Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.

In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.

At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.

No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.

Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.

he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.

I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.

Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!

I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?

I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.

KP: .102
Calderon: .096

Lance: .062
Sasha: .060

It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?

It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.

Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.

No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.

Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.

DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that

Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?

Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.

This is just another simplistic attempt to use a analytic method, for self pronounced experts, to convince themselves they can predict the future win total of a team. And Yes, I get it, saw the movie "Moneyball". But its just not that easy. There are just so many variables needed to create a winning team. As a lot of smart basketball guys have found out. So those that claim to know how a teams/player will perform by using analytics are just naive to the real correlation to a teams succcess. What I think those that are taking a dump on Rose seem to be missing is that we had freakin Jose Calderon and Gerian Grant last year!! All the analytics in the world can't take away that Rose and Jennings are huge upgrades. Unless you want to use some ridiculous stat to argue that they are just as good. The attention Rose and Jennings will attract will create more opportunities for Melo and KP. Don't even think the ball boy on the Knicks paid any attention to Jose last year. Not to mention we will have another go to option with the game on the line. Unless anyone can point out the many times we drew up a play for Jose last year? If one is going to criticize the Rose signing than you have to account for who he replaced and what viable alternatives did the Knicks pass on?