StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:yeah.... no. so this moron says lets build the team around rose and melo. ha ha.

garbage article with a douchebag point of view. lets hope the knicks never come close to this scenario. just horrible analysis.

next.

Totally agree with this.

Bunk ass article. In no universe should Rose nor Melo be the primary option with a God in your presence...

You guys realize that it's only logical to talk about Rose and Melo as the lead of the offensive attack? This isn't to suggest that KP won't be a primary target as well. That's why they call it a Big 3. All 3 players will be the likely leaders of this team's offense.

I simply can't fathom why KNICKS FANS would be so annoyed at such a logical point made in this article. It's absurd not to recognize that Rose and Melo will be expected to carry a large portion of the load and that they would look to make things easier on KP and let him build up his game naturally rather than forcing it. The more KP shows he can handle the more he'll get to do. As the 3rd option KP will not be place at any disadvantage. If his game develops faster and he can handle more then fine.

No way in hell KP is the third option. Rose isnt the same player anymore, i think he can still help us but he isnt the player he once was. Im fine if melo gets some more touches but KP should be looked at as our main weapon too

You seem to also be missing the main point. There is simply no need to FORCE things with KP. If he develops during the course of the season into a primary option along the lines of a Dirk, then nothing is going to stop the Knicks from featuring him that way. However, that has yet to be proven. He's not starting the season off with that kind of pressure. There's no need to place that kind of pressure on him either. Let it happen naturally!!! Rose and Melo are vets and already used to that kind of pressure so let them take it and allow KP to find his game without that pressure.

im not missing the point at all. I know you are a very optimistic person but i think you may be expecting too much from Rose at this point. Melo and KP should be the big guns in the offense

My optimism has NOTHING to do with my main point which is that Rose and Melo as vets with proven histories of being lead players should continue that role and let KP play off of them at least to start so that there's less pressure on KP. There is simply no reason to force things with KP. Let KP naturally take on what he's comfortable with. If he shows he is ready for more there would be no problem with letting him take it on, but no way you force it early.

I really have no idea what you ChuckBuck and dk7th are going on about when it comes to this Rose thing. Rose is not coming here to take a backseat. He's going to have a prominent role. He's the lead guard for goodness sakes. While Rose had a rough start due to the Orbital Surgery, he did start to get his game going and I suspect he's gonna come into next season raring to go in a contract year.

Melo is going to also come into next season looking to lead along with Noah and Rose. This nonsense about Rose and Melo not being up to it is crazy. The Knicks Big 3 is Rose, Melo and KP, PERIOD!!!

it's not forcing things! he's already shown he is ready for more, which translates to he's comfortable taking on more. he was a close second in rookie of the year and he ranked in the top 5 among power forwards last year. he wants the responsibility and the pressure and does not need to be coddled or brought along slowly. by doing so you are putting him behind the other two. he is a phenomenon but no-- "lets take it slow."

"we just spent 20 million dollars on a washed up player so lets make him part of our "big 3." by telling rose "it's your team because you a re the lead guard" you are actually hindering kp6's growth.

i am speaking about what we have seen while you are speaking about what we have yet to see.

Excellent Post. KP is clearly ready to take the next step without having to force it.

KP is already a primary scorer for this team but he doesn't come into the season with a history of being the #1 option which you guys are completely missing. Rose has been an MVP and leader of his team. Melo has won a scoring title and been the #1 option on his teams. KP as talented as he is, has yet to play an entire season as the primary scoring option, PERIOD!!!

Now if KP shows in camp that he's ready to take on that kind of role it will be evident to Hornacek and he can adjust things as necessary. However, there's no reason to push Rose aside as if he is just some scrub we brought in to only pass the ball. Let's not get carried away with the Rose criticisms. What we needed most was an uptempo and penetrating PG. This is something that Rose does very well to this very day. Rose will pass the ball to his fellow starters. It's simply not true that he won't pass the ball to them.

im not missing any point. Ive probably played and watched just as much bball as you have. I NEVER called Rose washed up, in fact i said he will help. HOWEVER this isnt 2012 rose anymore. All those injuries have taken a toll..you would be a fool to deny that. As for KP i understand he wasnt the main option last year and in spain but that was mostly because of his age. Aftwr a successful rookie year he will be able to take the next step along side melo as our main options

I'm not just talking to you ya know! Some of what I'm writing is directed at dk7th.

Regarding Rose the injury thing is obvious but what goes underrated is just how much he still has left. You will see just how good he stil is next season. You guys can keep TALKIN him down but you're making a huge mistake.

We all know how talented KP is. The fact remains that he has yet to show he is ready to be a #1 option. There literally no reason to thrust him into that role just yet. Let him do his thing with other teams focused on Rose and Melo! He'll be able to do lots of damage that way minus unnecessary pressure. This is a good situation that many young players don't have the luxury of having.

How am i talking him down? I clearly said multiple times that he will HELP us. However he isnt the same player he was. Its not a knock just the facts of life. Im a diehard knick fan but i always try to be objective

The suggestion that Rose is not going to be a lead option along with Melo is talking him down. He's gonna have the ball in his hands a lot and both Melo and KP will benefit from his ability to push and penetrate, which he still does at an elite level.

whatever man if you think thats talking him down then i dont know what to tell you. I just think you should temper expectations with Rose. Just because he isnt a elite mvp anymore doesnt mean he isnt a good player anymore.

it's hard to have a conversation with nix because you aren't ever going to get him to concede anything, because we're all haters if we're concerned about Rose's (1) health, (2) rape trial, (3) that the players haven't played together and we don't know if it's going to work (a la Amar'e and Melo), etc.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:Why you guys beefing over DRose so hard? Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He does somewhat decent and Knicks bow out 2nd round, Phil still won't resign him due to injury risk. Just a bad bet period. Phil has his eyes set squarely on 2017 free agency and the stacked NBA Draft.

We all know Rose is as good as gone after this season.

First of all you don't know what this Knicks team will be able to do in the Playoffs. For all we know they could make the ECF's. Talent wise they have a roster that should be capable of making a serious playoff run.

As for Rose being resigned by Phil, that also is impossible to say right now. We do know that Phil isn't thinking the way you suggest cuz he's said that he hopes Rose will be here beyond next season. If Rose balls out and the Knicks get to an ECF I doubt that Phil will be reluctant to sign Rose as long as the contract meets what he feels is right. We can't know what that would be at this point. In terms of FA's that's also a tough read at this point. We've seen that top FA's don't really move that often, which is why Phil made the TRADE for Rose in the first place.

Right now Phil has the most complete team he's had as a GM/Prez. He's gonna watch how this plays out and what happens with Trade possibilities as well as the Free Agent Market, but if this team is very successful he's gonna want to keep it together. Why else commit to Noah for that many years if you have no intention of also keeping Rose?

ha ha ha you're being ridiculous now. rose is on a one-year contract while noah is on a four-year contract. noah is by far more valuable to the knicks as a passing big man, a defender, a leader, and a mentor to kp6. it is a perfect fit.

and you've finally somehow answered my question. you've decided rose will have passed the one-year audition. take a close look at the language i magnified in your post. ChuckBuck is right to call it a bad bet, even it's only a year. meanwhile almost every projection model has the knicks winning between 37-45 games. ecf finals?!?

then there's this:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/AdrienneESPN/status/745710162137190401

“It’s about the season ahead of us,” Jackson said. “Derrick’s got a drive in him. I know he’s going to do well. It’s part of it. We’ll cross that as we go along for next year. We’d like to have him long-term. Certainly one of the great things about it.”

People talk about his shooting % but those numbers can be deceiving. For one thing just look at Pull Up Jumpers. Rose actually shot well on Pull Ups after the All Star break. Among guards he was one of the top players in attempts. Now look at his FG% compared to all the other top guards from 2pt range. He has a low 3pt % which lowers his eFG%, but he rarely took pull up 3pt shots compared to the other top guards.

Pull Up Shots: Any jump shot outside 10 feet where a player took 1 or more dribbles before shooting.

Player	       Team	GP	W	L	MIN	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	eFG%
Stephen Curry  GSW	29	24	5	34.8	11.6	4.2	10.0	41.7	3.2	7.6	42.5	57.9
Brandon Knight PHX	10	3	7	34.7	9.8	3.7	9.9	37.4	2.4	6.0	40.0	49.5
Chris Paul     LAC	26	17	9	32.1	9.3	4.1	9.7	42.2	1.2	3.7	31.6	48.2
James Harden   HOU	27	14	13	39.7	8.4	3.4	9.4	36.4	1.6	5.0	32.1	44.9
Damian Lillard POR	28	17	11	35.0	8.4	3.3	9.2	35.3	1.9	5.1	38.0	45.7
John Wall      WAS	26	14	12	36.2	7.4	3.4	9.1	37.6	0.5	1.5	35.0	40.5
Kobe Bryant    LAL	21	4	17	25.9	6.9	3.0	9.1	32.8	0.9	3.0	28.1	37.5
Jrue Holiday   NOP	18	7	11	33.4	7.7	3.3	8.4	39.1	1.2	3.7	31.3	46.0
Kemba Walker   CHA	29	21	8	35.3	7.3	2.9	8.0	35.9	1.6	4.6	35.6	46.1
Russ Westbrook OKC	26	15	11	34.5	6.9	3.0	8.0	37.0	1.0	3.5	28.6	43.3
CJ McCollum    POR	28	17	11	34.3	7.1	3.2	7.6	41.6	0.8	1.9	40.4	46.5
Kyrie Irving   CLE	27	17	10	33.1	6.4	2.8	7.4	38.0	0.7	2.7	27.0	43.0
Jamal Crawford LAC	26	16	10	28.0	5.6	2.4	7.1	34.1	0.8	2.5	31.3	39.5
DeMar DeRozan  TOR	26	18	8	35.6	5.4	2.7	7.0	37.7	0.1	0.3	25.0	38.3
Derrick Rose   CHI	21	10	11	30.9	6.4	3.1	7.0	44.5	0.2	0.7	28.6	45.9

Drives: Any touch that starts at least 20 feet of the hoop and is dribbled within 10 feet of the hoop and excludes fast breaks. Measures the total number of drives as well as the points, assists and shooting percentages on drives to the basket.

Player	        Team  GP  W  L  MIN  DRIVES  FGM  FGA  FG%  FTM  FTA  FT%  PTS  PTS%  PASS  PASS%  AST  AST%  TO  TO%  PF  PF%
Eric Bledsoe    PHX   31  12 19	34.2 11.7    2.3  4.9  46.4 1.6  1.9  86.4 6.2	53.2  4.5   38.0   1.1  9.4   1.1 9.1  1.3 11.3
Isaiah Thomas   BOS   81  47 34	32.2 11.7    2.6  5.8  45.4 2.4  2.9  83.7 7.6	65.2  3.8   32.7   1.0	8.9   0.7 5.9  1.9 15.8
DeMar DeRozan   TOR   77  52 25	35.9 11.6    2.9  5.8  50.6 2.8  3.4  83.0 8.7	74.4  3.7   31.4   0.9	8.1   0.5 4.0  2.2 18.5
Ish Smith       PHI   77  16 61	29.1 11.1    2.2  5.0  44.6 0.6  1.0  63.5 5.1	45.6  5.1   45.6   1.4	12.6  0.6 5.1  0.7 6.3
Jeff Teague     ATL   79  47 32	28.5 11.1    2.4  5.2  45.7 1.7  2.0  82.9 6.4	57.5  4.0   36.3   0.9	8.3   0.8 7.0  1.2 11.1
Reggie Jackson  DET   79  43 36	30.7 10.6    3.0  6.1  49.0 1.5  1.7  86.9 7.5	70.0  2.9   27.3   0.9	8.2   0.7 6.9  1.1 10.5
Tyreke Evans    NOP   25  11 14	30.6 10.4    2.3  5.2  43.8 1.9  2.2  85.5 6.4	61.7  3.2   30.3   0.8	8.0   0.9 8.8  1.2 11.9
Russ Westbrook  OKC   80  55 25	34.4 10.1    2.4  4.8  50.7 2.3  2.8  82.1 7.1	70.7  3.2   31.5   1.1	11.0  0.8 7.6  1.7 17.1
Rajon Rondo     SAC   71  29 42	35.4 9.9     2.1  4.1  50.7 0.4  0.7  54.2 4.5	45.7  4.3   43.0   1.4	14.1  1.0 10.1 0.5 4.8
Jrue Holiday    NOP   65  27 38	28.2 9.8     2.7  5.3  50.4 1.6  1.9  86.1 6.9	71.0  3.0   30.7   0.8	8.7   0.5 4.9  1.2 12.3
Damian Lillard  POR   75  40 35	35.7 9.8     2.7  5.5  48.2 2.5  2.7  91.1 7.8	79.4  2.4   24.3   0.8	7.9   0.5 5.4  1.6 16.4
Kyle Lowry      TOR   76  53 23	36.9 9.5     1.9  4.4  44.3 1.5  1.8  84.2 5.4	56.4  3.4   35.3   1.1	11.5  0.6 6.8  1.2 12.3
James Harden    HOU   82  41 41	38.1 9.4     2.1  4.3  49.6 2.9  3.4  86.0 7.2	76.6  2.5   26.5   0.9	9.2   0.9 9.4  2.1 22.2
Goran Dragic    MIA   72  44 28	32.8 9.4     1.8  3.4  52.8 0.7  1.0  70.4 4.4	46.2  4.6   48.8   1.3	14.1  0.8 8.1  0.6 6.8
Kyrie Irving    CLE   53  37 16	31.5 8.9     2.7  5.3  50.7 1.1  1.3  81.2 6.5	72.3  2.5   28.3   0.6	7.2   0.4 4.4  0.9 9.9
Derrick Rose    CHI   66  32 34	31.8 8.9     2.8  5.5  51.0 1.3  1.7  76.1 6.9	76.9  2.1   23.3   0.6	6.5   0.6 7.1  1.0 11.5

                                                                                        FT      Score   And One SF      TO
Player	        Team  GP  Poss	Freq	PPP	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	Freq    Freq	Freq    Freq    Freq  Percentile
Reggie Jackson  DET   79  896	55.9%	0.88	785	318	715	44.5	47.6	7.9%	14.2%	7.3%	2.0%	41.3%	77.2
Damian Lillard  POR   75  815	43.0%	0.92	751	259	628	41.2	47.8	11.4%	13.6%	9.6%	2.3%	40.9%	84.8
Kemba Walker    CHA   81  789	46.7%	0.89	705	261	629	41.5	46.2	10.1%	10.9%	8.4%	0.9%	41.8%	80.7
Chris Paul      LAC   74  749	51.9%	0.94	705	284	604	47.0	50.3	7.7%	12.6%	3.9%	0.9%	44.5%	89.0
Russ Westbrook  OKC   80  722	35.4%	0.85	614	219	502	43.6	47.7	12.7%	19.9%	10.7%	2.2%	40.6%	70.7
John Wall       WAS   77  721	40.2%	0.73	524	225	560	40.2	42.3	5.0%	17.9%	4.4%	0.7%	35.4%	38.3
CJ McCollum     POR   80  642	37.4%	0.92	593	243	521	46.6	50.4	6.7%	13.7%	5.9%	1.6%	43.0%	85.5
Jrue Holiday    NOP   65  618	51.7%	0.87	536	213	501	42.5	45.6	8.3%	12.6%	7.1%	1.9%	40.8%	75.2
James Harden    HOU   82  606	25.9%	0.97	588	165	370	44.6	49.2	20.0%	21.5%	17.7%	2.6%	44.6%	91.4
DeMar DeRozan   TOR   78  593	32.4%	0.99	588	214	445	48.1	48.3	17.0%	10.8%	15.3%	3.0%	49.7%	92.8
Kyle Lowry      TOR   77  582	35.7%	0.86	502	171	423	40.4	46.0	12.5%	16.2%	10.8%	1.4%	40.2%	73.8
Isaiah Thomas   BOS   82  568	31.0%	0.86	487	159	412	38.6	42.6	14.4%	14.6%	10.2%	1.6%	40.8%	72.8
Dennis Schroder ATL   80  568	54.4%	0.71	403	158	417	37.9	39.9	8.6%	19.4%	6.9%	1.4%	34.9%	34.8
Derrick Rose    CHI   66  563	43.5%	0.84	474	207	466	44.4	44.8	7.6%	12.3%	7.3%	2.7%	41.4%	68.3

I expect that the PnR production should improve with this roster. Rose will have much better targets around him and that will make the game easier for him and for his teammates.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.

Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.

simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.

Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.

simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no

This is a STUPID question, because Rose, Melo and KP are most likely going to have the most shot attempts per game which is how it should be.

2015-16
Rk	Player	        Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA ▾	
1	Derrick Rose	27	66	66	31.8	6.8	15.9
2	Jimmy Butler	26	67	67	36.9	7.0	15.4
3	Pau Gasol	35	72	72	31.8	6.5	13.8
4	Nikola Mirotic	24	66	38	24.9	3.8	9.2	
2014-15
Rk	Player	        Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA ▾	
1	Derrick Rose	26	51	51	30.0	6.6	16.4
2	Pau Gasol	34	78	78	34.4	7.3	14.8
3	Jimmy Butler	25	65	65	38.7	6.5	14.0
4	Aaron Brooks	30	82	21	23.0	4.2	10.0

If you think KP, Melo and Lee won't get shots you're seriously mistaken. For one thing Rose respects these guys and that will always lead to more passes. There will be PLENTY of shots to go around next season. Higher tempo quicker shots. It all adds up to more shots for everyone.
No matter how much you try to talk down Rose it's not gonna work.

Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.

KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.

Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.

Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.

KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.

Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.

What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!

it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.

almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.

so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.

Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.

KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.

Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.

What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!

it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.

almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.

so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?

That's pretty much the whole argument dk7th and I have. As long as Rose plays his role and keeps his mouth shut and doesn't overstep it, and doesn't come out the Knicks gate pretending to be 2011 NBA MVP Rose chucking up 20 shots a game, the Knicks offense and morale should be okay. If he tries too hard to earn that last big payday for himself and his prick brother Reggie, then we in trouble, and the lockerroom will be one big cancerverse.

exactly, and these roles should be pre-established based on a plan, an agenda-- NOT on some ****amamie "history" of a dude on a one-year contract. a "scoring point guard" is the kiss of death in terms of shot distribution.

rose's numbers are very bad as a shooter who takes as many shots as he does: about 17 shots a game, 42% between 3 feet and the 3 point line. he only makes layups 50% of the time. his usage vs. assist rate is a ghastly .88:1 which is not near point guard territory.

the recipe for success for rose is

1) taking an average of 12 shots a game, only good shots. those 5 extra bad shots should be going to kp6 and melo.
2) his usage should be well below 25%. 28% is too high for his lack of efficiency, and 4 or 5 fewer percentage points would indicate his ability to properly share the ball
3) he should average 6-7 assists a game.

if he achieves these numbers he will be doing his job!