nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

1)what was the record of that team with Rose and without Rose?
2)are the Knicks better on paper than the Bulls last season: Gasol, Butler, etc.?

1st of all I really couldn't care LESS what the Bulls situation was with or without Rose. We've already established that Rose struggled after dealing with the Orbital Surgery and Mask situation. This Knicks team is going to be run a different way and with a lot of different players than the Bulls last season. From your questions it seems to me that you're only looking for a negative angle to come at this from.

I believe that this Knicks team fits together much better and matches, as closely as possible, how Hornacek has said he wants to play. That should allow JH to get the most out of his roster. JH will be able to do the things he loves to do with his teams and that should help this team to excel.

On this Knicks team is't not gonna be ALL ON ONE OR TWO GUYS! There's enough talent to make things easier for everyone. It's simple. Play hard, pass and move and everything should come easier.

Sorry to rile you. It was not my intention. I asked because I wanted to see if he was a difference maker for better or worse. If you saw my post I predict 38-43 wins which is pretty much the mean of all predictions. Since you are great at providing numbers I thought I'd ask you about these. If you'd rather not, I guess I'll just have to look them up later.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

The team definitely meets the average person's definition of talent. I haven't heard anyone criticize the team's talent. That's just a distraction. The real issues are the players' decision-making and health. I know you say these will be good but many including me won't believe it until we see it.

As I listed above, the way Rose played in the 49 games without the Mask and the 21 after the All Star Break is a very good sign for this team. He's not going to have to do it all by himself since there is quality talent around him. I'm not having to go out on a limb, just looking at the many factors in this team's favor. Hopefully the Knicks will have some blowouts against weaker teams and can give guys lots of rest. I just want to see this team be relatively healthy come playoff time. Get into the playoffs healthy and I like their chances.

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

1)what was the record of that team with Rose and without Rose?
2)are the Knicks better on paper than the Bulls last season: Gasol, Butler, etc.?

1st of all I really couldn't care LESS what the Bulls situation was with or without Rose. We've already established that Rose struggled after dealing with the Orbital Surgery and Mask situation. This Knicks team is going to be run a different way and with a lot of different players than the Bulls last season. From your questions it seems to me that you're only looking for a negative angle to come at this from.

I believe that this Knicks team fits together much better and matches, as closely as possible, how Hornacek has said he wants to play. That should allow JH to get the most out of his roster. JH will be able to do the things he loves to do with his teams and that should help this team to excel.

On this Knicks team is't not gonna be ALL ON ONE OR TWO GUYS! There's enough talent to make things easier for everyone. It's simple. Play hard, pass and move and everything should come easier.

Sorry to rile you. It was not my intention. I asked because I wanted to see if he was a difference maker for better or worse. If you saw my post I predict 38-43 wins which is pretty much the mean of all predictions. Since you are great at providing numbers I thought I'd ask you about these. If you'd rather not, I guess I'll just have to look them up later.

The Bulls were 32-34 with Rose and 10-6 without him. You can see his on/off splits here. Almost every single metric, both offensive and defensive, the Bulls were better without Rose last season.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

The team definitely meets the average person's definition of talent. I haven't heard anyone criticize the team's talent. That's just a distraction. The real issues are the players' decision-making and health. I know you say these will be good but many including me won't believe it until we see it.

Why are you concerned with the players decision making? What makes you think that these players aren't capable of playing good team basketball?
There is enough proof that these players can play good team basketball. Collectively I think this group is a good fit. I think Hornacek is a good coach and Phil has given him some good talent to work with and do the things he loves to do. I think the players will love playing for JH.

As I listed above, the way Rose played in the 49 games without the Mask and the 21 after the All Star Break is a very good sign for this team. He's not going to have to do it all by himself since there is quality talent around him. I'm not having to go out on a limb, just looking at the many factors in this team's favor. Hopefully the Knicks will have some blowouts against weaker teams and can give guys lots of rest. I just want to see this team be relatively healthy come playoff time. Get into the playoffs healthy and I like their chances.

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

That article is completely disingenuous. The trainer's saying that he hasn't gotten a full offseason to work because of the playoffs but for 3 seasons, 2011/12 through 2013/14, he played in a combined 1 playoff game. The slight uptick in his shooting percentages is exclusively from shooting 37% from 3; something he's never come close to doing over the course of any season of his career. The only other stat that improved was his ORtg but that was offset by his DRtg getting worse by an equal amount.

We have some good 3pt shooters in the starting lineup, Rose needs to focus on drawing the defense away from his teammates. Rose is at a make or break point in his career, this is a great opportunity for him to show that he can make his teammates better. If he does he'll be a star in NY. Im sure Jennings is also going for the number one spot.

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't think we have a strong enough bench to compete at the highest levels. 39-44 wins. Add a legitimate 7th and 8th man and this team can go to 50 wins.

5th Seed.

Hornacek has spoken openly about using his starters intermixed with the bench. He isn't looking to run a platoon system from what he's said. That should allow for this team to have quality on the floor at all times. I actually think there's enough talent to be highly competitive. I think there are enough Live Bodies and High Motor players on the roster for Hornacek to work with.

Derrick Rose 	        PG
Courtney Lee	        SG
Carmelo Anthony 	SF
Kristaps Porzingis	PF
Joakim Noah	        C
Brandon Jennings	PG
Lance Thomas	        SF
Justin Holiday	        SG
Sasha Vujacic	        SG
Kyle O'Quinn	        C
Mindaugas Kuzminskas	SF
Willy Hernangomez	C
Maurice N'dour	        PF
Marshall Plumlee	PF
Ron Baker	        SG

When Hornacek won 48 games in PHX I think he got a lot out of his roster which was a good roster but wasn't Elite in any sense.

Player	         Age G  GS  MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  eFG%  FT  FTA  FT%  ORB  DRB TRB  AST  STL  BLK  PTS ▾
Goran Dragic     27  76 75  35.1 7.3 14.4 .505 1.6 3.9  .408 5.7 10.4 .542 .561  4.2 5.5  .760 0.9  2.3 3.2  5.9  1.4  0.3  20.3
Eric Bledsoe     24  43 40  32.9 6.2 12.9 .477 1.2 3.3  .357 5.0  9.7 .517 .522  4.3 5.5  .772 0.6  4.1 4.7  5.5  1.6  0.3  17.7
Gerald Green     28  82 48  28.4 5.5 12.3 .445 2.5 6.2  .400 3.0  6.0 .492 .547  2.4 2.8  .848 0.6  2.8 3.4  1.5  0.9  0.5  15.8
Markieff Morris  24  81 0   26.6 5.1 10.4 .486 0.4 1.3  .315 4.7  9.1 .512 .507  3.2 4.0  .792 1.7  4.3 6.0  1.8  0.8  0.6  13.8
Channing Frye    30  82 82  28.2 4.1  9.5 .432 2.0 5.3  .370 2.1  4.2 .509 .535  1.0 1.2  .821 0.9  4.2 5.1  1.2  0.7  0.8  11.1
Marcus Morris    24  82 1   22.0 3.5  7.9 .442 1.2 3.2  .381 2.3  4.8 .483 .518  1.5 1.9  .761 1.0  2.9 3.9  1.1  0.9  0.2   9.7
P.J. Tucker	 28  81 81  30.7 3.3  7.6 .431 0.9 2.4  .387 2.4  5.2 .450 .491  1.9 2.5  .776 2.0  4.5 6.5  1.7  1.4  0.3   9.4
Miles Plumlee    25  80 79  24.6 3.6  6.9 .517 0.0 0.0	 --  3.6  6.9 .517 .517  0.9 1.7  .561 2.5  5.4 7.8  0.5  0.6  1.1   8.1
Leandro Barbosa  31  20 0   18.4 2.8  6.6 .427 0.4 1.3  .280 2.5  5.3 .462 .454  1.6 2.0  .795 0.3  1.6 1.9  1.6  0.4  0.2   7.5
Ish Smith	 25  70 1   14.4 1.7  4.0 .423 0.0 0.3  .043 1.7  3.7 .457 .425  0.3 0.6  .564 0.4  1.4 1.8  2.6  0.7  0.2   3.7

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

That article is completely disingenuous. The trainer's saying that he hasn't gotten a full offseason to work because of the playoffs but for 3 seasons, 2011/12 through 2013/14, he played in a combined 1 playoff game. The slight uptick in his shooting percentages is exclusively from shooting 37% from 3; something he's never come close to doing over the course of any season of his career. The only other stat that improved was his ORtg but that was offset by his DRtg getting worse by an equal amount.

He was better (but not good) from 2 point range in the 2nd half (.431 vs. .477). Average 2 point % is around 49 and good offenses are closer to 51 or 52% from 2 point range.

Even so, we're talking about 20 games, even less if you break it down by month. Looks like all of his improvement came during a 15 game stretch in March.

GustavBahler wrote:Rose I believe relied on the 3 ball more last season, took it to the rim less. If this new roster is to succeed Rose is going to have to make them pay for giving him the lane. We have gone through one starting PG after another who couldn't or wouldn't take it to the rim. Made the job of everyone else on the floor more difficult. Felton was the last PG to at least try, but he had trouble finishing.

We have some good 3pt shooters in the starting lineup, Rose needs to focus on drawing the defense away from his teammates. Rose is at a make or break point in his career, this is a great opportunity for him to show that he can make his teammates better. If he does he'll be a star in NY. Im sure Jennings is also going for the number one spot.

He didn't. He took fewer 3FG/game last season then in any other season except his 1st two. From 2010-2015 he took 4.8, 4.4, 4.7, and 5.3 3FG/game. Last year he took 2.3.

No indication whatsoever that he wants to be one or can
be one. Ever.

Knicks with Rose playing full season and messing up the
Triangle: 39-43, no playoffs.

Knicks with Rose injured and everyone else buying into
Triangle: 45-37, 6th seed.

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:At the start of last season Rose was not at his best and struggling with the Mask after the Orbital Surgery. What is clear is that he did progress after time and removal of the Mask.

In 49 games without the mask, however, Rose averaged 17.3 points on 44.9 percent shooting from the field.

In 21 games played after the All-Star Break, he averaged 17.4 points on a slash line of .468/.375/.784.

http://dailyknicks.com/2016/07/17/knicks-derrick-roses-trainer-isnt-worried-about-his-health/

IMO with the extra time Rose has had in order to prepare his body and work on his skills, this is a very good situation for the Knicks. Rose has a very good opportunity to play a better brand of ball next season.

I'm still trying to understand why it is that people think the Knicks aren't that talented. Exactly how are teams going to be able to focus on stopping Rose, Melo and KP without leaving Lee or Noah open at some point? That's going to be the trick. As soon as you space the floor and put Rose in a 2 man game the advantage is all Knicks at that point. The defense will be put in a tough situation and most certainly will have to help off of Melo, KP or Lee. I'm not seeing a team that is going to be easy to defend at any point. Especially with Hornacek's aggressive style and approach to the game.

That article is completely disingenuous. The trainer's saying that he hasn't gotten a full offseason to work because of the playoffs but for 3 seasons, 2011/12 through 2013/14, he played in a combined 1 playoff game. The slight uptick in his shooting percentages is exclusively from shooting 37% from 3; something he's never come close to doing over the course of any season of his career. The only other stat that improved was his ORtg but that was offset by his DRtg getting worse by an equal amount.

He was better (but not good) from 2 point range in the 2nd half (.431 vs. .477). Average 2 point % is around 49 and good offenses are closer to 51 or 52% from 2 point range.

Even so, we're talking about 20 games, even less if you break it down by month. Looks like all of his improvement came during a 15 game stretch in March.